Author Topic: Presidential debate # 3  (Read 13823 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2012, 12:33:52 PM »
Let's see -- Romney has been governor of a (formerly) major northeastern state, head of the U.S. Olympics, and ran a hugely successful corporation ... but he has no experience. Yet Obama, who cruised through college and law school on other people's money, then got a do-nothing job created for him by a major supporter, moved from that to a U.S. Senate seat bought by the Chicago political machine and then didn't complete his first term ... is criticising the other guy as not having enough experience to be president?

That's a knee-slapper, right there.

And then this: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/10/23/post-debate-msnbcs-matthews-claims-romney-supporters-fueled-by-racial-hatred/

So anyone who is against Obama is a racist, but the (mostly black) Obama supporters who are promising riots if Obama loses and threatening to assassinate Romney if he wins -- they're NOT racist?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2012, 07:03:03 PM »
What's so wrong with the bayonets and horses comment? He said the military has fewer of them. I don't know if he's correct about the bayonets. He's definitely right about the horses.

But how is that offensive?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 07:10:30 PM by fistful »
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lupinus

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2012, 07:11:44 PM »
What's so wrong with the bayonets and horses comment? He said the military has fewer of them. I don't know if he's correct about the bayonets. He's definitely right about the horses.

But how is that offensive?
Because rather than answer the question he opted to be his usual condescending arrogant ahole self.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2012, 07:19:41 PM »

What's so wrong with the bayonets and horses comment? He said the military has fewer of them. I don't know if he's correct about the bayonets. He's definitely right about the horses.

But how is that offensive?

First order logic.  "Assumed similarities are not similar."

Romney:  Our navy has shrunk, and this is a bad strategy.
Obama:   Well, obviously, because we have fewer horses.
           +
             You're an idiot because you obviously don't understand that carriers & subs make "ships" unnecessary.

(It happens that we actually have more bayonets, but never mind that for now.)

So rather than discuss the actual strategic aspects of having a large vs small navy, he goes all rhetorical and strawman with a dash of red herring.

I'm not a naval officer, and I don't have the expertise that's conveyed by the local Holiday Inn Express, but I will opine anyway that having a small navy is a bad idea.

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zxcvbob

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2012, 07:20:06 PM »
Let's see -- Romney has been governor of a (formerly) major northeastern state, head of the U.S. Olympics, and ran a hugely successful corporation ... but he has no experience. Yet Obama, who cruised through college and law school on other people's money, then got a do-nothing job created for him by a major supporter, moved from that to a U.S. Senate seat bought by the Chicago political machine and then didn't complete his first term ... is criticising the other guy as not having enough experience to be president?

That's a knee-slapper, right there.

And then this: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/10/23/post-debate-msnbcs-matthews-claims-romney-supporters-fueled-by-racial-hatred/

So anyone who is against Obama is a racist, but the (mostly black) Obama supporters who are promising riots if Obama loses and threatening to assassinate Romney if he wins -- they're NOT racist?

When liberals start calling everybody a racist -- because they've run out of arguments -- would it be wrong to shrug and say "yeah?"  Racist has nothing to do with race anymore, it just means you won the debate.  (if you're the victim of real racism, I guess it sucks to be you)

This has got to backfire on them someday, how can we accelerate the process...  Maybe "Chris Matthews called me a Racist" T-shirts?  Make it trendy.
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Waitone

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2012, 07:26:37 PM »
Meghan Kelly is reporting the media broke out in cheers when Obama came out with his bayonet comment.

How illustrative would it have been for a split screen between the candidate speaking and the media room?  How great would it have been for a "reporter" to been seen high-fiving a colleague then go on camera playing the dispassionate reporter.  Shame often provides effective correction to unacceptable behavior.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2012, 08:12:44 PM »
Oh, OK. From what I've been hearing here, and on the radio, it sounded like people found it disrespectful of the military. I should ask my corpse-man friend what he thinks of it.  ;)


Quote
"Chris Matthews called me a Racist" T-shirts?

Want.
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drewtam

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DittoHead

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2012, 08:41:12 PM »
So rather than discuss the actual strategic aspects of having a large vs small navy, he goes all rhetorical and strawman with a dash of red herring.

It's a debate between two politicians, neither of whom honestly give a *expletive deleted*it about the navy - they just want votes.  Were you honestly expecting either of them to "discuss the actual strategic aspects of having a large vs small navy"? Even if Obama was an ass about it, the point he was making was valid.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2012, 08:46:37 PM »
Quote
Shame often provides effective correction to unacceptable behavior.

We are discussing reporters and politicians, you do realize that they are pretty much universally immune to shame.
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longeyes

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2012, 09:58:12 PM »
One word was missing last night: Mexico.

Two words were missing from the other debates: Federal Reserve.

Hmmm.  Wonder why...
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MechAg94

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2012, 10:11:00 PM »
It's a debate between two politicians, neither of whom honestly give a *expletive deleted* about the navy - they just want votes.  Were you honestly expecting either of them to "discuss the actual strategic aspects of having a large vs small navy"? Even if Obama was an ass about it, the point he was making was valid.
IMO, the comment isn't really valid.  Horses were replaced buy jeeps and trucks and tanks.  Do we have fewer of those?  Maybe, but we still have Cavalry and mobile infantry.  We didn't get rid of them when we picked up air forces and nukes.  The horse was replace by better transportation.  What exactly are we replacing ships with?

Also, naval power doesn't mean much if you don't have the ships to send to the area of concern.  I thought I saw a note this morning that Romney was getting some of those numbers from Obama's SecDef. 
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Waitone

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2012, 10:28:49 PM »
Never mind the reality that US in A'stan rode to battle on horses.  They even went so far as to import a particular mule into country.  Special tactics were developed to integrate the detonation of an air burst (2,000 pounder), dissipation of the shockwave, and arrival of Northern Alliance Calavry to overrun whatever was left of a Taliban position.  Special Forces went to wrangler  school out west to develop key skills in handling horses and mules.  The need for mobility in warfare has not changed.  All US forces did was to adapt to ground reality.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2012, 10:38:42 PM »
Quote
Never mind the reality that US in A'stan rode to battle on horses.

Did they have a bugler? That would be really cool if they had a bugler.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2012, 10:46:21 PM »
Did they have a bugler? That would be really cool if they had a bugler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kEM2vQXeik
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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2012, 11:19:06 PM »
It's a debate between two politicians, neither of whom honestly give a *expletive deleted* about the navy - they just want votes.  Were you honestly expecting either of them to "discuss the actual strategic aspects of having a large vs small navy"? Even if Obama was an ass about it, the point he was making was valid.

From what I heard, the navy has been trying to tell everyone they need more ships than what Obama's left them with.  I'm sure Romney knows the navy has carriers and submarines, and I'm also sure Obama doesn't know that the navy calls submarines "boats," not "ships," even though he seems bright enough to understand they operate below water.
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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2012, 07:41:01 AM »
            You're an idiot because you obviously don't understand that carriers & subs make "ships" unnecessary.

Aren't carriers and subs classified as "ships"?....and do we not have fewer of those now than 10 years ago?
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DittoHead

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2012, 07:44:35 AM »
IMO, the comment isn't really valid.  Horses were replaced buy jeeps and trucks and tanks.  Do we have fewer of those?  Maybe, but we still have Cavalry and mobile infantry.  We didn't get rid of them when we picked up air forces and nukes.  The horse was replace by better transportation.  What exactly are we replacing ships with?

Also, naval power doesn't mean much if you don't have the ships to send to the area of concern.  I thought I saw a note this morning that Romney was getting some of those numbers from Obama's SecDef. 

It's pretty simple, a 1917 ship != a 2012 ship. Not only is a ship today different than a ship back then, the nature of warfare has changed a bit and some of the things we needed ships for we can do with missiles, planes, drones, robots, or space lasers. That's not to say we don't need ships, or even that we might not need more ships but simply saying 'we have fewer ships now than before' is an insultingly stupid approach and deserves the stupid zinger that it got in response.

Our deficit/debt is out of control, and at least in my (uneducated) opinion, the Navy will need to work with less just like everyone else. Fewer ships means we police the world a little less and that's fine by me. :police:

Never mind the reality that US in A'stan rode to battle on horses...  The need for mobility in warfare has not changed.  All US forces did was to adapt to ground reality.
Well that strawman had no chance against you and your cavalry!
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2012, 08:05:05 AM »
Aren't carriers and subs classified as "ships"?....and do we not have fewer of those now than 10 years ago?


Yes and no, sort of...
The way I've heard it explained is you get on a ship and you get in a boat.
On a sub the official title of the senior (by position)enlisted (E-9) is Chief of the Boat.
Submarines are built at the General Dynamics Electric Boat division.
Sometimes it's just tradition.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2012, 08:24:07 AM »
Quote
Our deficit/debt is out of control, and at least in my (uneducated) opinion, the Navy will need to work with less just like everyone else. Fewer ships means we police the world a little less and that's fine by me.


In reality what happens is you get the same number of missions with fewer assets. Higher op tempo, less time spent in upkeep/maintenance/training which usually results in more down time due to equipment failures and other causes which leave the remaining assets to pick up the slack causing less time spent in upkeep/maintenance/training which usually results in more down time due to equipment failures and other causes which leave the remaining assets to pick up the slack causing less time spent in upkeep/maintenance/training which usually results in more down time due to equipment failures and other causes which leave the remaining assets to pick up the slack causing...
Not mention the burn out factor for people.
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HankB

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2012, 08:37:10 AM »
Something like 90% of world commerce is on the oceans, and there are around 8 or 10 "choke points" that need to be kept open. (Suez and Panama canals, Straits of Hormuz, Straits of Malacca, Straits of Gibraltar, Bab el Mandeb, etc.) And we can't depend on, say, the Chinese to keep commerce flowing around Korea, the Philippines, Japan, etc. So it's not just a matter of how powerful the individual ships are, but how many ships we have.

For every big aircraft carrier, we need a LOT of other ships - subs, cruisers, destroyers, oilers, various cargo and troop carriers, minesweepers, and so forth and so on.

How many? Don't ask me, I can't put a number on it. But at about half the size of Reagan's "600 ship" navy, I can at least wonder if we've cut too much.

And Obama's deflection of Romney's comment - questioning the size of our navy with references to horse cavalry and infantry bayonets - falls into the category of ignoratio elenchi - an irrelevant conclusion, the fallacy of presenting an argument that may be valid, but which doesn't address the issue at hand. I was taken to task in grammar school for doing this in a school assignment, so it's a bit disheartening to see it coming from the leader of the Free World.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2012, 08:38:50 AM »
Something like 90% of world commerce is on the oceans, and there are around 8 or 10 "choke points" that need to be kept open. (Suez and Panama canals, Straits of Hormuz, Straits of Malacca, Straits of Gibraltar, Bab el Mandeb, etc.) And we can't depend on, say, the Chinese to keep commerce flowing around Korea, the Philippines, Japan, etc. So it's not just a matter of how powerful the individual ships are, but how many ships we have.

For every big aircraft carrier, we need a LOT of other ships - subs, cruisers, destroyers, oilers, various cargo and troop carriers, minesweepers, and so forth and so on.

How many? Don't ask me, I can't put a number on it. But at about half the size of Reagan's "600 ship" navy, I can at least wonder if we've cut too much.

And Obama's deflection of Romney's comment - questioning the size of our navy with references to horse cavalry and infantry bayonets - falls into the category of ignoratio elenchi - an irrelevant conclusion, the fallacy of presenting an argument that may be valid, but which doesn't address the issue at hand. I was taken to task in grammar school for doing this in a school assignment, so it's a bit disheartening to see it coming from the leader of the Free World.

Standard Obama, though. 
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drewtam

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2012, 08:41:35 AM »
Am I the only one here that thinks DoD spending will need to be cut along with SS, MediX, and everything else?

The big 3 are DOD, Medicare/aid, and SS. All 3 need to be cut to balance the budget.





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HankB

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Re: Presidential debate # 3
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2012, 09:00:28 AM »
Am I the only one here that thinks DoD spending will need to be cut along with SS, MediX, and everything else?

The big 3 are DOD, Medicare/aid, and SS. All 3 need to be cut to balance the budget.



 . . .
What happened to Israel, Syria, and Iran in the second graph?

I just saw a report that "welfare" spending totals over $1,000,000,000,000 annually - a figure which DOES NOT INCLUDE Social Security or Medicare.

Source:   http://www.heritage.org/research/commentary/2012/10/welfare-is-at-an-all-time-high

The article states that by discussing welfare programs individually rather than collectively, the size and scope are largely hidden from view - as is the fact that many recipients receive aid from multiple programs at the same time. Welfare spending has exceeded defense spending for over 20 years, and over the next 10, we're on track to spend $2 on welfare for every $1 we spend on defense.

I know where I'd start cutting . . .
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