Post by: griz on March 06, 2005, 04:49:00 PM
Now that we are allowed to politely discuss this once taboo topic, I'll start with this question. It is lifted from THRs RT, so some will recognize it.
Why does God (or Gods, any Supreme Being) allow suffering? I tend to believe its an unfortunate byproduct of the extremes, IE you cant appreciate good weather with out bad weather. But Im not sure that is a good answer. What do you think?
Post by: P95Carry on March 06, 2005, 05:01:29 PM
I am non-religious BTW, tho do have my own set of values etc.If ''God'' is benevolent then yeah - why all the suffering.? Awful lot of the ''only the good die young'' type of thing. And, why do BG's live when GG's die etc .. similar thing.
Another one ... if God is impartial - why or how does praying to ''Him'' before military action give your side any ''edge'' over the other side - the guys you really, really want to kill, badly! If both sides ask for ''help'' - for their ''just cause'' ... where does that leave a God?
How come for some - they can sin all they want, screw up folk's lives and then - go and get absolution ... all ready to start over again?
Ok ... I won't partake too much - been in discussions before on this and not likely to changes views this late but - sure as heck, feel I have earned some of my cynicism !
Debate on fellas ... there's many miles ahead!
Post by: Guest on March 06, 2005, 05:02:01 PM
My perception is - One never knows whom is watching another. Be it good times or bad times. Folks are used to set examples of how a belief in "Something Greater Than Themselves" can assist them in daily living , be this times of good fortune, or times of being less fortunate.
Human beings can become all messed up by a windfall of monies - or being Dx with a terminal illness.
Sharing Experience ,Strength, and Hope, one of many beliefs shared in a variety of Belief systems.
One is used to help their fellow man, pass forward, and perpetuate some Beliefs, ethics, more's , principles.
Preacherman will perhaps have some better explanations - best ignore mine and listen to his.
Post by: Pilgrim on March 06, 2005, 05:03:35 PM
I have two whippets. I do my best to make their life comfortable and without pain. As a result, they are not in charge of their destiny, I am.
If we are to control our destiny, we have to suffer the pain and consequences of our bad decisions along with the joys of our good decisions.
Pilgrim
Post by: grampster on March 06, 2005, 05:10:37 PM
Regarding weather, well, nature seems to interact with itself in ways that are fairly well understood and after that things happen and we tend to be in the way from time to time.
Post by: Steelharp on March 06, 2005, 05:14:16 PM
Post by: Waitone on March 06, 2005, 05:33:04 PM
Post by: Michigander on March 06, 2005, 05:36:28 PM
Post by: griz on March 06, 2005, 06:05:15 PM
Post by: Steelharp on March 06, 2005, 06:11:38 PM
BTW, what does IOW stand for?
Post by: P95Carry on March 06, 2005, 06:12:54 PM
Post by: Steelharp on March 06, 2005, 06:15:22 PM
Post by: Zundfolge on March 06, 2005, 06:17:24 PM
God's perspective is a little broader then our own so maybe he sees any suffering here as insignificant.
Post by: Arc-Lite on March 06, 2005, 06:32:15 PM
Post by: spacemanspiff on March 06, 2005, 06:56:20 PM
god is not our baby sitter. he is not obligated to make all our problems disappear.
sometimes people believe he has answered their prayers and has blessed them. thats up to the individual to decide however. some may consider their hardships to be a blessing, as it helps them appreciate whatever small amounts of good they encounter in their life.
if you are familiar with the bible, you probably have heard the story of Job. so i wont bore you with retelling it. just recall that job did have everything, and had it taken away, for reasons at the time, he did not understand. the purpose of it was to see if he would blame god for what happened.
now, it began because (according to the bible, again, open to interpretation) satan challenged god by accusing him of having loyal followers (like job) only because god blessed them. so job proved that even without all the blessings, he would still praise god.
but it starts back even further. back to the original sin. god could have destroyed the one angel who questioned his authority. but it would not have answered the question of 'would humans willingly serve god?'
had that never been answered, god would have looked like just a big mean ol bully, making sure everything was done according to the way he wanted it.
it would also have proven that god didnt wish for his creation to exercise their free will to choose what path they will take in life.
thats my interpretation of it anyways. from a personal perspective, i believe its rather insulting and egotistical to think that somehow, god OWES us protection.
Post by: Moondoggie on March 06, 2005, 07:07:56 PM
First of all, God is God, and we're not. We're not intended to know the mysteries of the universe...if we were, we would.
I believe that we are all created eternal spiritual beings. "Eternity" encompasses forever IN BOTH DIRECTIONS. Our lifespan isn't even a blink of an eye in comparasion to eternity. I think our purpose in being here is to experience a non-spiritual existence as an avenue toward spiritual growth. In that vein, the most terrible prolonged suffering we can imagine wouldn't even amount to a pesky splinter or a bee sting in the context of eternity. I think the Bhuddist concept that an evil act hurts the perpretrator more because it decreases their spirituality...generalizing here...may be accurate. I don't think God is involved in events here at all. I think we keep getting recycled until we get it right, or at least do better. Think about it...how many exceptionally awful things are committed by lowlife (spiritually challenged?) scumbags?? Don't most decent folk (spiritually advanced?) live by the "Golden Rule"?
So I guess that I include reincarnation in my spiritual philosophy...maybe as other "things", maybe on other planets. Each "incarnation" is an opportunity for spiritual advancement. Probably some randomness, maybe the spiritual being has the option to be incarnated or not. Pretty much everybody adheres to some concept of an afterlife...what about the "beforelife"? In the Christian Bible, doesn't God say "I knew you before I knit you in your mother's womb"? Gives me the idea that we were "with God" prior to this life.
Every religion that I've been exposed to has the precept "with God, all things are possible" as part of the program. "All things" covers a lot of territory. One guy's "Sci-Fi Fantasy" comic book philosophy is another guy's walk to the corner for a pack of gum.
OK, now y'all know that I'm a kook!
Post by: Azrael256 on March 06, 2005, 07:24:01 PM
Quote
innocent suffering random tragedies. The latest tidal wave is one example.
I don't think the tidal wave is a valid example, and I think you can extend this to other natural disasters. It was not really random, unexpected, or impossible to deal with. Look at our seismic warning network, or that of the Japanese. Because we know that we have to deal with earthquakes and such, we prepare ourselves. We direct our free will (granted to us by whoever you believe created you) to build infrastructure to warn our people, minimize damage, and quickly deal with casualties. Read up on the USGS study of the recent activity of Mt. St. Helens, and compare it to Pliny writing about Vesuvius. USGS pays attention to the warnings. Pompeii did not.I won't go into why the people of Sri Lanka, India, Indonesia, etc. did not build this sort of infrastructure, as that is no doubt the subject of many a study by political scientists, but the fact is that they didn't. The people responsible for ensuring that the affected countries were prepared for disasters failed, and the unfortunate folks around the coast suffered for it. I don't see the transcendent having much of a hand in it. I do see governments failing to take the necessary precautions to safeguard their people, and a vast number of innocents laying dead because of it.
Post by: Happy Bob on March 06, 2005, 08:30:37 PM
Post by: wasrjoe on March 06, 2005, 09:30:53 PM
Quote
Why does God (or Gods, any Supreme Being) allow suffering?
Because there is no supreme being of any sort. What you see is what you get.
At least that's what I think.
Post by: Wildalaska on March 06, 2005, 09:38:13 PM
WildthatsmybasicphilosophyyAlaska
Post by: BillBlank on March 06, 2005, 11:13:15 PM
Free will folks, lifes a gamble from the first breath. Wouldn't have it any other way. Being looked after is boring, why else do we struggle to leave our parents when we hit adolesence?
It does mean that when it goes wrong there's noone to pick you up and kiss it better apart from yourself and people that care about you. Bit harsh but an excellent incentive to be nice to your fellow man.
Post by: The Rabbi on March 07, 2005, 04:15:56 AM
Post by: Arc-Lite on March 07, 2005, 05:05:17 AM
Post by: Michigander on March 07, 2005, 06:07:06 AM
When one considers "natural disasters," I'm glad someone pointed out that much could have been done to prevent countless lost lives. Instead of "where was God?", perhaps the question should be, "where was Man?"
Why didn't Man do what he could to prevent all the lost lives? Greed, probably.
What about the baby born addicted to crack, or with AIDS? Where was God? Where was Man? What choices did Man make to create a child with such problems? How many diseases could be cured and/or eliminated if it weren't for greed, lust, amoral or immoral behavior?
Also, another thing: When a natural disaster strikes, and many people die, somehow we all assume they were "innocent" people. We do not know that they were. May be safe to say the children were "innocent" relatively, but certainly not all the adults were "innocent" even in our eyes, let alone God's eyes.
Post by: Sindawe on March 07, 2005, 06:20:42 AM
The reason is that the Gods are bored and in need of a good laugh.
Post by: Stand_watie on March 07, 2005, 06:35:35 AM
It's not neccessarily a great consolation to someone watching a loved one die of a painful disease, but God's answer to Job was another question...
Job 38 & 40
"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?... Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it."
Post by: grampster on March 07, 2005, 03:56:56 PM
That part of Job is a favorite of mine, especially when I get feeling sorry for myself over some meltdown that is really of not much consequence.
Another is in the New Testament...something about the clay challenging the potter.
Whether one is a believer, or is of faith of some kind or another, or not, there is certainly a lot of wisdom in most of the "Holy Books". One might wonder, or scoff, or find humor or shock, but yet there is wisdom to be had.
I've said before in discussions about "religion" or lack of it, that belief or faith or lack of it, is an intensely personal thing. It is better shared by living that faith or belief rather than trying to verbalize it. Someone once said, "Actions speak louder than words." I think proseletyzing is accomplished more by the actions of an individual in his or her own life rather than by words imho.
Post by: S_O_Laban on March 08, 2005, 02:57:52 AM
Post by: Stand_watie on March 08, 2005, 03:44:35 AM
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
Post by: MaterDei on March 08, 2005, 07:14:51 AM
"It is just to fight against illness, because health is a gift of God. At the same time, it is important to know how to read God's design when suffering knocks at the door of our lives. For we believers, the key to understanding this mystery is the Cross of Christ. ... Only when our pains are united to His do they acquire full meaning and value. Illuminated by faith, they become a source of hope and salvation." - Pope John Paul II
For something more detailed... http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 12, 2005, 09:15:56 PM
Quote
God's perspective is a little broader then our own so maybe he sees any suffering here as insignificant.
Sounds a little bit too much like WildifGoddoesn'tcarewhydoeshegiveusairtobreatheandwatertodrinkandfoodtoeatandthenallowustodisobeyHimanddestroyhisotherpreciouscreatures
withoutimmediatelydestroyingusAlaska's god.
Subliminal message translator: If God doesn't care about us why does he give us air to breathe and water to drink and food to eat and then allow us to disobey Him and destroy his other precious creatures without immediately destroying us?
Post by: Fjolnirsson on March 12, 2005, 09:43:09 PM
"Why does God (or Gods, any Supreme Being) allow suffering?"
Here's another non-Christian perspective.
In my religion, the Gods are not all powerful or all knowing. Think of them as immensely powerful relatives, with all of the typical human vices and flaws. There is a code of conduct, which they strive to uphold, the same as mortals do. At times, one God or another may take particular interest in the life of a mortal, for whatever reason. Come the end of the world, some of my Gods are killed, with others taking their places at ruling.
The Norns are those who control the destiny of men and Gods. The Norns are three in numberUrth or Wyrd (the past), Verthandi (the present), and Skuld (the future). They weave the fabric of lives as they choose. It is said they try to stave off Ragnarok (our end of the world).
In my religion, hardship is something to be endured. It is thought to build character. Perhaps God/Gods/The Norns put us through hardship to see what metal is within us? To test the worthiness of the weapon, so to speak? The same as you or I would do with a newly purchased gun?
Just my .02
P95carry wrote,
"How come for some - they can sin all they want, screw up folk's lives and then - go and get absolution ... all ready to start over again?"
It doesn't work that way with my Gods. great emphasis is placed on the deeds of ones life, and the manner in which one lived and died. Great scorn would be heaped upon one who behaved as you described, and he would earn a place in Niflhel, an underworld hall, built of wattled serpents, where murderers, perjurors and
adulterers wade in venomous streams. The corpses of men are tormented there by a demon-wolf, who gnaws at them continuosly.
Sorry, didn't mean to get all caught up in that. What you mentioned has always been a big gripe of mine about the "weekend Christian" mindset. Those who sin all week, then get pious on Sunday.
No disrespect intended to any Christians here. I have great respect for those of you who actually follow the teachings of Christ. I have several close friends who are devout Christians. We simply agree to disagree.
And with that, I'll stop my contirbution to thread-drift. Sorry, Griz, didn't mean to hijack your thread.
Byron
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 13, 2005, 07:45:50 PM
What's with this cryptic "my religion" stuff? Name it, please, and tell us where it comes from. Who knows, you might convert us all.
Post by: Wildalaska on March 13, 2005, 08:34:30 PM
Quote from: fistful
Subliminal message translator: If God doesn't care about us why does he give us air to breathe and water to drink and food to eat and then allow us to disobey Him and destroy his other precious creatures without immediately destroying us?
Large assumption you are maing that God give us all that?By the way..assuming God does...which god?
WildconundrumAlaska
Post by: Fjolnirsson on March 13, 2005, 08:44:29 PM
"What's with this cryptic "my religion" stuff? Name it, please, and tell us where it comes from. Who knows, you might convert us all."
Sorry, I wasn't actually trying to be cryptic or anything. I usually don't bother to name it, since it isn't very well known. I also try not to push religion on others. Conversion of non believers is not something my faith is concerned with. There is no need to "save" people.
It's known as Asatru, or Heathenism. It is a reconstruction of the ancient religion of the Germanic and Icelandic people, based on historic documents and writings, as well as stories passed down to the modern day descendants of those people. The ethical code of Asatru stresses self sufficiency, honesty and bravery in the face of adversity.
If anyone is interested in learning more, here is as good a place to start as any:
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~cherryne/mythology.html
Post by: spacemanspiff on March 14, 2005, 09:03:45 AM
Quote
By the way..assuming God does...which god?
duhhhh! you can just say 'god' and its good enough. didncha know 'dat?spacemanveryfewunderstandsthereisapropernametobeusedin"ourfatherwhoartinheavenhallowedbethyname"or"baptizinginthenameofthefather,son,andholyspirit"spiff
Post by: TMM on March 14, 2005, 12:25:09 PM
Because there is no god.
logically(HAH!...), there is a supreme being... but he/she/it just dosn't give a damn and lets us play without any divine intervention. if he/she/it didn't allow suffering, i don't think anything would exist.
but really, look at all this. look at yourself. you're thinking with words, just lines and sounds that mean somthing, and you're pressing buttons on somthing made out of a non-naturally occurring material, and letters appear on this piece of glass infront of you... that's pretty amazing in itself. now look at space... the endless expance of nothing... with rocks and big burning balls of hydrogen... and- also remember, everything is made, basically, with what stars are made of. you're looking at somthing that used to be a ball of hydrogen. but pressures and gravity pressed it into different materials. take a second to contemplate the exact expanse of space itself- endless- so goddamn big we can't even envision it... there has to be some reason to it?
~TMM
Post by: Gewehr98 on March 14, 2005, 03:43:08 PM
