Israel Under Attack

[MechAg94]

Except that these clearly weren't belligerents, they were unarmed civilians transiting their own neighborhood to safety, or to recover family. The problem here is that the IDF has an intentionally murderous ROE. The clear objective is to forcefully displace or kill everyone in the Gaza territory. The IDF marks an area and kills everything that lives in in it, men women children or hostages. It's getting to the point that it's beyond shameful to even attempt to justify what is going on over there.

Remember this one? They didn't make a mistake, they were following a very clear policy to kill everything that moves. Had they been following reasonable rules of engagement those hostages would have made it.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/three-israeli-hostages-killed-mistakenly-in-gaza-were-holding-white-flag/articleshow/106048176.cms?from=mdr

The IDF excuse is that they are so scared and paranoid to the point that they can't objectively asses threats, can't tell what is going on and just have to go ahead and fire on everything preemptively to "defend" themselves because "enemy tricks". Give me a break. Remember that the IDF her is the invading and occupying force. You can't go into someone else's home and shoot everything and claim that you did so because you are afraid the residents might hurt you. The intellectual dishonesty of Israeli arguments is mind blowing. 

War has always been an ugly business and always will be. 

Also, you might want to say the same things to the Hamas terrorists that attacked Israel last year.

[cordex]

I have no doubt that there are plenty of things that the IDF can be justly criticized for. I don’t get the impression that they are in any way trying to fight this war per US, peacetime, suburban ethics.

That said, I also have seen enough of Blakenzy’s posts over the years to not have the impression that he is even remotely a disinterested third-party when it comes to discussions involving Israel. I view his critiques of them as coming from someone who assumes the worst about Israel and is not too picky about being evenhanded or morally consistent.

[dogmush]

Except that these clearly weren't belligerents, they were unarmed civilians transiting their own neighborhood to safety, or to recover family.

Let me stop you right there. 1. Remind me again the uniform all hamas belligerents wear.  The one that clearly mark's them as fighters on one side of a war between uniformed combatants.  Oh, that's right. 2. Giving them the benefit of the doubt that they were just transiting their neighborhood, and definitely weren't going to notice anything of Intel value on the way through,  you don't get to do that in a combat zone.  They clearly knew the IDF was there, and was shooting folks in the area. (Hence the flag). Don't FO in active combat unless you want to FO.

And let's talk the flag.  That's a flag of surrender.  Not a flag of please don't shoot me while I do my thing.  You fly it, you go to within sight of the enemy,  and then you wait until you are collected, searched, secured, moved to the rear, and likely imprisoned for the duration.  If at least the first three of those things haven't happened, you haven't surrendered,  and are open to Finding Out.  But hey, someone saw a movie once where that worked.

The IDF could go full Sherman's March to the Sea, and salt Gaza on the way out and it wouldn't necessarily be a war crime.  This is what happens when you start wars between countries.

I have often remarked that the US military is in some ways too good, as our ability to pick and choose targets and strike very precisely gives the US population an unrealistic standard for how war can be prosecuted.

I had no idea this was the case.  True?  I thought the mil was required to accept surrender, at least if they could do so safely.

Is true.  Because under the Laws of War, if I take a prisoner I am responsible for their safety,  and must provide food, water, protection and medical care.  If I can not fulfill those responsibilities due to enemy situation, mission requirements,  lack of resources, or whatever, I am not required to accept a surrender.

US ROE strongly encourages it whenever practicable, but it"s up to the commander on the ground.  If you DO accept it, all US forces MUST honor it, so it bears thinking over.

[Boomhauer]

I have often remarked that the US military is in some ways too good, as our ability to pick and choose targets and strike very precisely gives the US population an unrealistic standard for how war can be prosecuted

Yep. You also have to have the kind of war where that works as well and this, where the so called civilians shelter, support, and form the manpower of terrorist forces makes it a lot harder.


Hamas no doubt thought they could rely on the usual terrorist SOP of attacking Israeli civilians and withdrawing back on the assumption of facing no real retaliation and gaining much propaganda value from what limited retaliation would happen while the world jumped Israel’s *expletive deleted*it.

They chose…poorly…



 

[Blakenzy]

Let me stop you right there. 1. Remind me again the uniform all hamas belligerents wear.  The one that clearly mark's them as fighters on one side of a war between uniformed combatants.  Oh, that's right. 2. Giving them the benefit of the doubt that they were just transiting their neighborhood, and definitely weren't going to notice anything of Intel value on the way through,  you don't get to do that in a combat zone.  They clearly knew the IDF was there, and was shooting folks in the area. (Hence the flag). Don't FO in active combat unless you want to FO.

Well if the IDF wants to have the moral high ground they will have to extend the benefit of the doubt to the residents of the areas they occupy and not shoot everyone on sight. There is only so much a civilian population can do to stay out of harms way. Maybe waving a white rag is as good as it gets. Currently there are near 30,000 dead reported of which 3/4 were said to be women and children (arguably non combatants). I think that they have reached the point where collateral damage is no longer a bug but a feature. If Israel does not have the moral high ground what is the difference between them and the people they are fighting? What reason would anyone have to support them?

Israel should keep high moral standards to be worthy of the unquestionable support that appears to be expected of us, yet there is whole lot going on that doesn't align with that. Israel as a sovereign country can do as Israel pleases, but it shouldn't expect everyone to step in when things blow up by going full mad dog. I think they are seriously harming themselves with their approach.

Now there are over one million Palestinians herded into the border town of Rafah. Netanyahu indicated that F-all they are going in hot. Egypt won't let refugees cross into Sinai. Everything I have read is in agreement that it will be an epic slaughter humanitarian crisis once troops go in, the only disagreement is if that is desirable or not. So where does Israel go from there when there is retaliation from other surrounding forces? I think that hard criticism is exactly what is needed to avoid this hot mess spreading.

[Northwoods]

1) if Hamas has unilaterally disarmed and negotiated in good faith there would be an independent and free Palestine.   Likely a thriving one.

2) if Israel unilaterally disarmed and negotiated in good faith every jew in the region would be dead or a refugee.  And the Palestinians would still be poor, desperate, and enslaved to Hamas.

3) if Israel backs out now Hamas will only be emboldened.   30k dead (even if mostly women and children) only excites them. I highly doubt that number,  but if real, and if mostly "non-combatants, that's still mostly because Hamas purposely made sure that happened.

[dogmush]

If you think there's any moral high to be had here, you're deluding yourself, and have watched too many war movies.

THe militant arm of the Palestinians has made it clear there will be violence until one or the other is rendered unable to fight.  They have also made it clear that they will, and will continue to use "civilian" structures and areas as shields to protect against combat power.

There could have been a two state solution.  There could have been some negotiated peace with relaxed *(not none, but relaxed) borders between Gaza and Israel proper.  Hamas made it clear they weren't going to do that, and that they were more than willing to drag the civilian population along ith them.

Israel has chosen to believe the rhetoric and actions of Hamas, and are going to remove the Gazan's ability to wage effective attacks.  At this point it seems increasingly clear that that will necessitate removing most of the Gazan's.  Don't start and lose wars, or your people get decimated.  This is the way of the world from time immemorial.

[Ben]

If you think there's any moral high to be had here, you're deluding yourself, and have watched too many war movies.

THe militant arm of the Palestinians has made it clear there will be violence until one or the other is rendered unable to fight.  They have also made it clear that they will, and will continue to use "civilian" structures and areas as shields to protect against combat power.

There could have been a two state solution.  There could have been some negotiated peace with relaxed *(not none, but relaxed) borders between Gaza and Israel proper.  Hamas made it clear they weren't going to do that, and that they were more than willing to drag the civilian population along ith them.

Israel has chosen to believe the rhetoric and actions of Hamas, and are going to remove the Gazan's ability to wage effective attacks.  At this point it seems increasingly clear that that will necessitate removing most of the Gazan's.  Don't start and lose wars, or your people get decimated.  This is the way of the world from time immemorial.

If there was a majority of "innocent Palestinians" and Hamas was just a splinter group, the Palestinians themselves could have put Hamas down and ended things with good faith negotiations. IMO, the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and support "river to the sea". There is a reason surrounding countries want nothing to do with Palestinian refugees.

Whether people agree with it or not, Israel going von Clausewitz in Gaza, at this point, is likely to reduce death and destruction in the long run. They have been burned one too many times.

[dogmush]

Carthage has not troubled it's neighbors in quite some time......

[Pb]

Except that these clearly weren't belligerents, they were unarmed civilians transiting their own neighborhood to safety, or to recover family.

I recall the American forces in the Iraq war frequently shot up ambulences and civilian cars approaching their checkpoints without stopping.  They didn't want to be the victim of suicide car bombers, and so innoncent people got killed... because the attackers didn't follow the laws of war, and hid among the civilian population.

I doubt this situation is any different.

[Boomhauer]

Did LeMay give a *expletive deleted*it about the moral high ground when he was burning Japan’s cities and their populations to ash?

[dogmush]

[K Frame]

Israel launched an attack overnight that rescued 2 Israeli hostages.

The NBC news article on it reads distinctly like "who gives a *expletive deleted*ck about 2 filthy jews, 67 glorious, innocent Palestinians were murdered in this cold-blooded terrorist invasion!"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-israel-hostage-rescue-rafah-civilians-palestinians-hamas-rcna138338?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us

[Ben]

^^^

That article I read on it had that Congress fire alarm guy complaining about, "how dare they do it during the superbowl!?!"

[Ben]

And a little humor in a humorless situation: That Moron Mehdi Hasan sent out a tweet that Israel doesn't give a *expletive deleted*it about the hostages and was just playing them up for sympathy. He managed to tweet this at pretty much the same time that the IDF was rescuing hostages. 

https://twitchy.com/brettt/2024/02/12/mehdi-hasan-wants-you-to-remember-that-netanyahu-doesnt-actually-care-about-the-hostages-n2392870

[K Frame]

^^^

That article I read on it had that Congress fire alarm guy complaining about, "how dare they do it during the superbowl!?!"

Yeah, because everyone knows that Israel and Palestine are so invested in the Superbowl that it was a surprise attack because of that.

Jesus.

[Ben]

Yeah, because everyone knows that Israel and Palestine are so invested in the Superbowl that it was a surprise attack because of that.

Jesus.

I guess my views have become somewhat of minority views in our current culture. I shake my head at both dems and Rs  that are pissed off because other countries won't do what we tell them, and that those countries should revolve around us.

[cordex]

I shake my head at both dems and Rs  that are pissed off because other countries won't do what we tell them, and that those countries should revolve around us.

If they don't even do what we tell them then why are we buying them off?

[Perd Hapley]

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/teenage-newton-gaza-light-tent

Anyone buy this?

[Ben]

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/teenage-newton-gaza-light-tent

Anyone buy this?

When they start off with:

AI-generated image of a kid in Palestina

it makes me not want to trust the rest of the article. But maybe Obama can invite him to the White House.

[dogmush]

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/teenage-newton-gaza-light-tent

Anyone buy this?

No.  I watched the whole Al Jazeera puff piece, and was kinda skeptical when he was wiring a 12VDC light bulb into the building's circuit breakers with what looks like 22ga wire.  The "Market dynamo for a shekel" seemed a reach as well.  Then the news couldn't help themselves and showed a shot of his invention:



That is a pair of [improperly mounted] commercially produced wind generators, not something cobbled together from war scrap.

[Ben]

So does this mean that the lefties will now say Putin is a good guy?

https://twitchy.com/brettt/2024/02/19/putin-invites-hamas-to-moscow-for-a-meeting-n2393107

[WLJ]

Active duty airman sets himself afire while shouting free Palestine outside the Israeli embassy in Washington.
In the hospital in critical condistion
Air Force has confirmed it's one of theirs.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13125019/DC-Israel-embassy-fire-protest-war.html

[WLJ]

He died

Pro-Palestine 'Death Cult' CELEBRATES US Airmen Aaron Bushnell's Suicide After He Succumbs to Injuries
https://twitchy.com/samj/2024/02/26/rest-in-power-trends-as-us-airman-aaron-bushnell-succumbs-to-injuries-he-sustained-setting-himself-n2393316

[cordex]

I can sympathize with anyone who genuinely cares about the innocent lives lost in Gaza, or the innocent lives lost in the various attacks on Israel.

That said, I wonder what would drive a person to commit suicide to protest those specific innocent lives lost.  Innocent people are killed unnecessarily around the world constantly.  What would make someone say "Screw all the other ones, these are the ones I want to die in order to raise awareness of"?