Post by: The Annoyed Man on March 27, 2008, 08:18:35 PM
Where does the money come from?
The government will borrow the money from China & Saudi Arabia to pay for the rebate, which is projected to cost $117 billion over the next two years, adding to the federal deficit.
The Federal government owes $53.3 trillion in future obligations that it has no ability to pay. The Government Accountability Office has sounded the alarm, but neither the politicians nor the American people are listening.
Post by: Standing Wolf on March 27, 2008, 08:39:12 PM
Quote
Where does the money come from?
It's our money in the oft-cited "first place." We earned it. We should never have granted government the power and authority to take it from us. I doubt we're courageous enough ever to take it back.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 27, 2008, 08:40:32 PM
I see it as $600 of my money back for me to use. $600 less to be wasted on public art projects or welfare.
Post by: taurusowner on March 27, 2008, 11:01:22 PM
If the .gov can afford to give us $$ back, they shouldn't have taken it in the first place.
And I love how the Libs are on board with this. They are basically admitting that $$ in the hands of American people does more to stimulate the economy and national growth than $$ in the hands of government. Too bad they'll forget that lesson next time they want to raise taxes.
As far as our deficit, there's a simply solution: Fire the IRS, the Dept of Education,the BATFE, and a few other agencies. Eliminate all taxes everywhere except a new standardized sales tax of about 20-25%. Anything that goes over that budget gets sent to the chopping block.
Problem solved.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 28, 2008, 04:33:46 AM
Eliminate all taxes everywhere except a new standardized sales tax of about 20-25%.
Black market much?
Post by: HankB on March 28, 2008, 04:53:02 AM
Where does the money come from?
From people like me, who paid more in taxes during 2007 than we spent on food, clothing, shelter, and transportation combined. 
And I won't be getting my $600 . . . YOU will.
It would be polite to say "Thank You."
Post by: MechAg94 on March 28, 2008, 05:32:11 AM
Post by: Firethorn on March 28, 2008, 06:11:55 AM
Eliminate all taxes everywhere except a new standardized sales tax of about 20-25%.
Black market much?
In most ways it'll still be simpler to audit than the current income taxes. After all, you don't have to worry about the 100 million or so working americans, just the businesses. Heavy fines if you're caught doing it, of course.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 28, 2008, 06:19:30 AM
1. Huge sales tax implementation date is announced.
2. People buy and buy and buy and hoard up to that date. Stores move inventory, especially durable goods. Most durable goods are still made in the US.
3. Day comes. Sales all but stop, supply chain full of dead inventory of durable goods. Collisions back to the factory levels, massive layoffs, etc.
4. Black market trading among people who hoarded, to save 25% on items.
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on March 28, 2008, 07:08:04 AM
Quote
Most durable goods are still made in the US.
Send me some of whatever you're smokin' please.
And of course the hoarded items will never be depleted, forcing consumers back to tax subject sources,right?
Post by: K Frame on March 28, 2008, 07:16:32 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on March 28, 2008, 07:17:05 AM
Small appliances are almost entirely made overseas, but that's not the same thing. Durable goods orders are very important to US manufacturing.
Post by: K Frame on March 28, 2008, 07:20:29 AM
Post by: The Annoyed Man on March 28, 2008, 07:38:06 AM
I see it as $600 of my money back for me to use. $600 less to be wasted on public art projects or welfare."
You can see it any way you want to, but pay attention to what you are reading....
"It was already ours.
If the .gov can afford to give us $$ back, they shouldn't have taken it in the first place."
I suggest you all go back & re-read the original post. It is 3 simple sentences. But let me simplify it for you:
The government will borrow the money...why? Because they already spent YOUR money- the government can NOT afford to give you your money back because they no longer have it. It has already been spent on "public arts projects & welfare".
That is why they will "borrow the money".
"It's our money in the oft-cited "first place." We earned it. We should never have granted government the power and authority to take it from us. I doubt we're courageous enough ever to take it back."
First, even people who don't work or pay taxes are also getting the same rebate that you'll be getting 2. the American people are pussies & will never, even with the freedom to assemble & protest will never do what they did in East Germany or Poland ...where they faced secret police & a communist government.
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 28, 2008, 08:24:29 AM
Quote
People just never had a single class in how the economy works...
1. Huge sales tax implementation date is announced.
2. People buy and buy and buy and hoard up to that date. Stores move inventory, especially durable goods. Most durable goods are still made in the US.
3. Day comes. Sales all but stop, supply chain full of dead inventory of durable goods. Collisions back to the factory levels, massive layoffs, etc.
4. Black market trading among people who hoarded, to save 25% on items.
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
1. Huge sales tax implementation date is announced.
2. People buy and buy and buy and hoard up to that date. Stores move inventory, especially durable goods. Most durable goods are still made in the US.
3. Day comes. Sales all but stop, supply chain full of dead inventory of durable goods. Collisions back to the factory levels, massive layoffs, etc.
4. Black market trading among people who hoarded, to save 25% on items.
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
First thing I would do prior to the implementation of a sales tax in lieu of an income tax is buy a new car and a new motorcycle. I'd also make sure that any "durable goods" in the house (A/C, fridge, washer/dryer, etc) are good to go for a good, long time.
Then, I don't have to pay sales tax on a car or other big purchases for at least 10 years.
It sure would stimulate a lot of saving and investing rather than spending though.
Post by: roo_ster on March 28, 2008, 09:12:45 AM
People just never had a single class in how the economy works...
1. Huge sales tax implementation date is announced.
2. People buy and buy and buy and hoard up to that date. Stores move inventory, especially durable goods. Most durable goods are still made in the US.
3. Day comes. Sales all but stop, supply chain full of dead inventory of durable goods. Collisions back to the factory levels, massive layoffs, etc.
4. Black market trading among people who hoarded, to save 25% on items.
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
1. Huge sales tax implementation date is announced.
2. People buy and buy and buy and hoard up to that date. Stores move inventory, especially durable goods. Most durable goods are still made in the US.
3. Day comes. Sales all but stop, supply chain full of dead inventory of durable goods. Collisions back to the factory levels, massive layoffs, etc.
4. Black market trading among people who hoarded, to save 25% on items.
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
Sure, there would be short-term effects.
But, not everybody has the disposable cash to make 10+ years of future purchases in one year. Or the space to store the extra washer & dryer & auto. That stuff eventually wears out, anyway, and they will have to purchase it at a later date.
Enforcement would be a whole lot easier & cheaper on retailers than on 300 million citizens.
And if a robust black market develops, depriving Leviathan of some of its sustenance...how is that a bad thing?
Post by: lupinus on March 28, 2008, 11:10:31 AM
Oh, and thanks HankB, that 600 bucks is going to play a big part in my summer vacation with my girlfriend and her twin sister
Post by: Firethorn on March 28, 2008, 11:24:55 AM
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
Ah, you mean with post-income tax money? I don't see how that'd be a real problem.
All more or less solvable by making the transition gradual, though it'd increase the cost.
Let's say the final figure we need is 25% for the sales tax. Do something like drop income tax by 5% for the year by either reducing rates or increasing deductables or whatever and increase the sales tax by 5%. Do that each year until income taxes are gone and the sales tax is fully in place.
While it would spur spending during the lead-up to an increase, and result in a dearth afterwards, it'll be a more gradual affair.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 28, 2008, 11:44:22 AM
25% is a hell of a lot of money. Buying and selling under the table would become the way of life here, just like it is in the third world.
Post by: taurusowner on March 28, 2008, 12:41:41 PM
Post by: Firethorn on March 28, 2008, 12:54:04 PM
Buying and selling under the table is already what goes on. Go to your local "bad part of town" and take a look at the people driving $150,000 cars who claim to make less than $10,000 on their income taxes, if they even file taxes at all. We already have a shadow economy of stolen good and drugs. But even the thieves still need to buy things for real at some point. A sales tax would be a way to get the free loaders and black marketeers to pay like the rest of us.
Agreed. At some point there needs to be a legitimate business. Even with a 25% tax, legitimate businesses will still dominate the market. The simplest method I can think to do that would be to require a federal business license in order to buy goods without the tax. In exchange you're subject to collecting sales tax and audits to make sure you do it right.
The implementations I've seen exempt used goods from sales tax, so YES, we would probably see a dramatic increase in durable vs throw away goods. That good refrigerator might cost more than the cheap one, but I see major used goods markets popping up - and there's nothing wrong with that.
It would also help stop outsourcing by reducing operating costs(payroll taxes) in the USA.
Post by: RevDisk on March 28, 2008, 02:44:24 PM
People just never had a single class in how the economy works...
1. Huge sales tax implementation date is announced.
2. People buy and buy and buy and hoard up to that date. Stores move inventory, especially durable goods. Most durable goods are still made in the US.
3. Day comes. Sales all but stop, supply chain full of dead inventory of durable goods. Collisions back to the factory levels, massive layoffs, etc.
4. Black market trading among people who hoarded, to save 25% on items.
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
1. Huge sales tax implementation date is announced.
2. People buy and buy and buy and hoard up to that date. Stores move inventory, especially durable goods. Most durable goods are still made in the US.
3. Day comes. Sales all but stop, supply chain full of dead inventory of durable goods. Collisions back to the factory levels, massive layoffs, etc.
4. Black market trading among people who hoarded, to save 25% on items.
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
Ayep.
6. And the federales will then enact an income tax a couple years later. In addition to the crushing sales tax.
Post by: MrRezister on March 28, 2008, 03:04:24 PM
It sure would stimulate a lot of saving and investing rather than spending though.
And as we all know, that's the WORST thing that can happen to the US economy.
Also, to hank - thanks, your "extra" taxes will go a long way to getting my kid's braces OFF, since they went on before our ortho realized that my insurance doesn't cover braces! Big oops on my part...
Post by: Sergeant Bob on March 28, 2008, 04:02:18 PM
People just never had a single class in how the economy works...
1. Huge sales tax implementation date is announced.
2. People buy and buy and buy and hoard up to that date. Stores move inventory, especially durable goods. Most durable goods are still made in the US.
3. Day comes. Sales all but stop, supply chain full of dead inventory of durable goods. Collisions back to the factory levels, massive layoffs, etc.
4. Black market trading among people who hoarded, to save 25% on items.
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
1. Huge sales tax implementation date is announced.
2. People buy and buy and buy and hoard up to that date. Stores move inventory, especially durable goods. Most durable goods are still made in the US.
3. Day comes. Sales all but stop, supply chain full of dead inventory of durable goods. Collisions back to the factory levels, massive layoffs, etc.
4. Black market trading among people who hoarded, to save 25% on items.
5. Economy, 2/3s dependent on consumer spending, goes poof.
Ayep.
6. And the federales will then enact an income tax a couple years later. In addition to the crushing sales tax.
Zackly. The goobermint is gonna get our money one way or another.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on March 28, 2008, 04:38:37 PM
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 16, 2008, 12:24:15 PM
Quote
From people like me, who paid more in taxes during 2007 than we spent on food, clothing, shelter, and transportation combined. angry
Some financial planning could mitigate that for you. Suggest you contact some professionals.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 16, 2008, 04:32:30 PM
My new refrigerator, an Amana, era hecho en Mexico...
Gracias NAFTA?
Post by: K Frame on June 16, 2008, 04:36:17 PM
Beats me. I don't know when Amana moved elements of its manufacturing down to Mexico.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 16, 2008, 05:09:52 PM
Quote
From people like me, who paid more in taxes during 2007 than we spent on food, clothing, shelter, and transportation combined. angry
Some financial planning could mitigate that for you. Suggest you contact some professionals.
Or you could declare bankruptcy every ten years and recoup the losses (also requires planning). Or you could change your legal name every five years and stay one step ahead of the 'crats. Or you could live under the table.
I'm not suggesting any of these methods. They all require a lot of work based on reading I've done. There are other schemes and scams. I would never encourage anyone else to pursue "beat the system" schemes that may land them in prison. On the other hand, Social Security is a the biggest Ponzi scheme ever. Did you know Ponzi schemes are illegal unless you are the government?
Post by: Tallpine on June 16, 2008, 05:37:07 PM
Quote
From people like me, who paid more in taxes during 2007 than we spent on food, clothing, shelter, and transportation combined. angry
Some financial planning could mitigate that for you. Suggest you contact some professionals.
Or you could declare bankruptcy every ten years and recoup the losses (also requires planning). Or you could change your legal name every five years and stay one step ahead of the 'crats. Or you could live under the table.
I'm not suggesting any of these methods. They all require a lot of work based on reading I've done. There are other schemes and scams. I would never encourage anyone else to pursue "beat the system" schemes that may land them in prison. On the other hand, Social Security is a the biggest Ponzi scheme ever. Did you know Ponzi schemes are illegal unless you are the government?
Or you could just be relatively poor. That's the way to beat the system
Post by: The Annoyed Man on June 16, 2008, 05:59:24 PM
Quote
From people like me, who paid more in taxes during 2007 than we spent on food, clothing, shelter, and transportation combined. angry
Some financial planning could mitigate that for you. Suggest you contact some professionals.
Or you could declare bankruptcy every ten years and recoup the losses (also requires planning). Or you could change your legal name every five years and stay one step ahead of the 'crats. Or you could live under the table.
I'm not suggesting any of these methods. They all require a lot of work based on reading I've done. There are other schemes and scams. I would never encourage anyone else to pursue "beat the system" schemes that may land them in prison. On the other hand, Social Security is a the biggest Ponzi scheme ever. Did you know Ponzi schemes are illegal unless you are the government?
Or you could just be relatively poor. That's the way to beat the system
Money for nothing and your chicks for free.