Author Topic: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter  (Read 5335 times)

Desertdog

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'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« on: June 13, 2007, 08:19:31 AM »
'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
By Jeff Golimowski
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.aspPage=/Nation/archive/200706/NAT20070613a.html

(CNSNews.com) - Call it green pollution. The ethanol industry, which is marketed as environmentally friendly and has been called a "cornerstone of America's energy policy," is dirtying air and water supplies across the heartland, according to a Cybercast News Service investigation.

And industry watchers said pollution is going to get worse.

"There seems to be this mad rush toward expansion of the alternative fuels industry without sufficient due diligence," said Bill Becker, executive director of the National Association of Clean Air Agencies (NAACA).

The Renewable Fuels Association, a major industry lobbying group, lists 119 working ethanol refineries in the United States, with another 77 refineries being built as of June 1.

Federal and state environmental agencies are responsible for monitoring the plants and making sure they follow local and national clean air and water guidelines. Those agencies have been busy.

A Cybercast News Service analysis of EPA records found 73 biorefineries - more than 60 percent of those operating - were cited by state or federal agencies for environmental violations in the last three years. The vast majority involve state or federal clean air laws.

"They've brought the enforcement actions against a number of ethanol companies and refineries for essentially sidestepping the law," said Frank O'Donnell, president of the non-partisan Clean Air Watch. "Ethanol refineries have the potential to pollute quite a bit."

Most of the companies have not been fined by state or federal government agencies, though some of the biggest ownership groups have been forced to pay millions for cleanup and anti-pollution devices.

"Ethanol has been dramatically oversold as a green energy source," said O'Donnell.

Fordland, Mo., bed and breakfast owner Larry Alberty agreed. He and his rural neighbors are fighting a proposed ethanol plant in nearby Rogersville.

They fear the plant's proposed 12-acre wastewater holding pond will seep into groundwater - the plant will be built on top of a major aquifer - and that the project will harm tourism in the area with its smokestacks and noise.

"Eleven million people visit this area [each year]," Alberty said. "People aren't going to want to come to the bed and breakfast and hear the noise and the light pollution ... it has an impact there and we're very concerned about it."

Becker predicted that these "not in my backyard" (NIMBY) battles will happen more frequently as the industry rushes to expand capacity.

Most ethanol plants are built in rural areas and are sold as major job-producing engines, but Becker said the tons of pollution the plants churn out will have a major impact on the heartland's air quality and, consequently, the area's quality of life.

"It's very important that the rural areas, the clean areas grow judiciously and allow industrial growth in such a way that it doesn't kick the air quality into a dirty area," he said. Failure to do so could cause all industries in the area to install pollution controls, make drivers go through emissions tests for vehicles, and make it more difficult for future development, he argued.

The pro-ethanol lobby said there is substantial support for expanding the industry.

"For every NIMBY group and every project that runs into opposition from the community, you're seeing half a dozen communities that want an ethanol plant," said Geoff Cooper of the National Corn Growers Association.

Cooper said Cybercast News Service's analysis is not surprising, but he said things are getting better.

"Some of the older plants that have been around for a decade or longer were built at a time when the regulatory regime for these types of facilities wasn't completely ironed out," he explained. "Some of those older plants are having to do some things to get up to code."

Cooper said any problems with pollution are offset by the environmental benefits of renewable fuels being used in U.S. vehicles.

"When you look at the carbon footprint and ethanol's ability to reduce carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, the industry's track record speaks for itself," he said.

Cooper also noted that many powerful environmental groups, including the Natural Resources Defense Council, are strongly in favor of ethanol.

"Where you're seeing most of the opposition in terms of air quality is the fringe groups," he said.

But Becker, who represents a group of state and local environmental regulatory agencies, said the ethanol industry's green credentials have been blackened. At one time, those agencies viewed the renewable fuels industry as a natural ally in environmental protection - but not anymore.

"I don't think they would qualify as green today," said Becker.

Incentives for ethanol production and distribution are a significant part of the Senate's omnibus energy bill being debated this week.

Repeated requests for comment from one of the most powerful pro-ethanol lobbying groups, the Renewable Fuel Association, went unreturned, as did requests for comment from Sen. John Thune (R-S.D.) and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) - both of whom have been outspoken advocates for ethanol. Aides for Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) reviewed the Cybercast News Service analysis and declined to comment.

See Related Story:
Ethanol Industry, Congress Accused of Bending Rules (June 13, 2007)

Nick1911

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2007, 08:40:54 AM »
Ethanol isn't the end all be all?  Shocker.

I'm still hedging my bets on nuclear power, or some more direct derivative of solar energy.

Desertdog

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2007, 09:03:58 AM »
Quote
I'm still hedging my bets on nuclear power, or some more direct derivative of solar energy
I saw two stories on solar energy just yesterday.  One story was on a solar energy farm being designed/built on acrage near Barstow CA that focused a large mirror into a heat sink that powered a sterling engine to drive a generator.   Each mirror had its own sterling engine, so they could just keep expanding as long as they had land.

The other story was a house that had solar panels as the final roofing material.  About half was photovoltive and the other half was for hot water for heating the house and hot water.

Sindawe

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2007, 09:09:59 AM »
Quote
The other story was a house that had solar panels as the final roofing material.  About half was photovoltive and the other half was for hot water for heating the house and hot water.

I would love to do something like that in my development, coupled with geothermal heating/cooling for each building.  I've been watching the development of "solar shingles" since I do live in an HOA and there are people more concerned with appearance than functionality.

Quote
I'm still hedging my bets on nuclear power, or some more direct derivative of solar energy.

Same here.  EtOH as a fuel is just a stop-gap measure for running our IC engines until another energy carrier is worked out.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2007, 10:30:07 AM »
Hmmm... ethanol production for fuel is a "major polluter" but ethanol production for human consumption (i.e. booze) isn't even mentioned.

Bull puckey.  These people have no idea what they're talking about.  If they are using traditional distillation techiniques the "wastewater" is probably cleaner than the utility-provided water they piped into the plant to begin with.

In short, it's another dose of environmentalist crap packaged in a "scare the ignorant masses into action" wrapper.

Brad
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JonnyB

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2007, 10:54:10 AM »
Hmmm... ethanol production for fuel is a "major polluter" but ethanol production for human consumption (i.e. booze) isn't even mentioned.

Bull puckey.  These people have no idea what they're talking about.  If they are using traditional distillation techiniques the "wastewater" is probably cleaner than the utility-provided water they piped into the plant to begin with.

In short, it's another dose of environmentalist crap packaged in a "scare the ignorant masses into action" wrapper.

Brad

Brad:

Do you think there's a big difference in volume between ethanol for drinking vs. that intended for motor fuel? I don't know the numbers but I'd be stunned if they were even close. Does Bourbon leave the Beam distillery by the trainload every week? Ethanol from the local motor fuel plants does.

The plants burn a lot of fuel to cook the corn, boil off the alcohol and dry the leftover mash. The net return between the BTUs consumed and the BTUs produced is small; on the order of a 20-25% gain.

jb
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Brad Johnson

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2007, 11:52:13 AM »

I wasn't commenting on the subject of alcohol's viability as a petroleum-based fuel substitute.  I was commenting on the article, which is a bunch of "sky-is-falling" envirocraptastic BS.

But since you felt compelled to jump in with both feet...


Quote
Do you think there's a big difference in volume between ethanol for drinking vs. that intended for motor fuel?

Ethyl alcohol is ethyl alcohol, no matter what the volume.  So what if they deliver it by the truckload.  The process of distillation does not change, nor do the byproducts.  The leftovers from distillation are grain solids and water.  That's it.  They settle out the solids and sell it for feed.  The leftover water is ... water.  No heavy metals, no petrochemical residues.  Water.

If the water left over from Jim Beam's distillation is fine to pump back in the river, then so is the water from Billy Bob's Ethanol Plant.  There is just more of it.


Quote
The plants burn a lot of fuel to cook the corn, boil off the alcohol and dry the leftover mash. The net return between the BTUs consumed and the BTUs produced is small; on the order of a 20-25% gain.

Sigh.  Why does this always come up even thought it is so grossly ignorant and short-sighted?  rolleyes 

The net return on fuel BTU does not include the 100% usability of all the byproducts which, interestingly enough, never seems to make it into the equation.  The "fuel argument" crowd sets up their simplistic little calculation like the only viable product from the production is the alcohol.  It's not.  There will be tons of organic solids that can, and are, sold as cattle feed.  Stick that in your equation and smoke it.

Look, ethyl alcohol is a short-term solution to a long-term problem.  No argument there.  But the article above is just bad.  It takes a lack of real information and builds on it with environmentalist hype.  That's what I was commenting on.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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Gewehr98

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2007, 12:11:52 PM »
Yeah, I don't buy into the original article's "sky is falling" diatribe, either.

I will, however, buy shares of the local ethanol distillery going up in Reedsburg.  My farm-owning cousins are doing the same.  They also get to feed their Black Angus the grain solids left over after distillation.   Nobody ever mentions that, they can't see the forest for the trees. 

Like Brad, I get tired of the same old misinformation.  If EToH production was energy-negative or economically unworkable, they wouldn't be doing it.  Period. They tried it with oil shale not too many years ago.  Remember the whole market economy thing?  Consumers dictate how it works, and judging from the lines at my local BP for the 105-octane corn squeezin's, their dollars are voting mighty heavily.

Something else that the short-sighted Chicken Littles are missing - most of the new ethanol plants are being built to make use of the cellulosic fermentation process.  Corn isn't going to be ethanol king for the long term, it was just an off-the-shelf technique thanks to our alcoholic forefathers.   

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stevelyn

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2007, 01:21:05 PM »
They're about to start a geothermal project out in Dutch Harbor that'll supply heat and power for the entire town. The initial outlay for the project is expensive, but the return is an unlimited amount of free energy.
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Desertdog

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2007, 02:27:06 PM »
Quote
The net return on fuel BTU does not include the 100% usability of all the byproducts which, interestingly enough, never seems to make it into the equation.
I agree, but the MSM are claiming that the reason the price of meat and poultry going up is due to the corn going to ethanol plants.
I wonder how that grain would work in tortillas.

wacki

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2007, 02:31:26 PM »
Ethanol is a scam which is pushed by companies like ADM, shell, and others.  It's political pork and scientists out of Cornell, Berkeley, Harvard, and Stanford have been screaming this for years.

Of all the  "green" energy fuels that get media attention corn ethanol is the least likely to get anywhere.  Too bad it gets the most money.  Go Iowa primaries!

brimic

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2007, 05:35:50 PM »
Once they figure out how to make herbicides, pesticides, and fertilizers from ethanol to replace the petroleum products needed just to grow the corn, I'll buy into the 'ethanol is good for all of us' idea.
Growing corn that isn't needed for food and plowing fields instead of allowing them to go back to their natural state can't exactly be too awesome for the environment either. Drilling for more oil is going to impact the environment less in the long run.

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Firethorn

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2007, 07:41:05 PM »
From what I understand, a number of the boilers for ethanol production use NG or even coal for their heat needs.  This results in pollution if not done right.  The article I read had them being cited for AIR pollution, not water pollution.

Art Eatman

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2007, 04:56:59 AM »
Ethamania, ethanolitis, take your pick...

The resulst to date:  Corn is up from $2/bushel to (last I looked) $3.64 a bushel.  At $2, there is good profit in ethanol.  At $4, it's $0.04 per gallon, which has already meant that proposed ethanol production projects have been put on hold.

To date, it has more than doubled the cost of corn in Mexico, and therefore tortillas, and therefore food riots in some poorer areas.  (From a health standpoint, tortillas are a major source of protein.  The cheaper substitutes are high starch, low in protein.)  The bottom line is that more wets will be coming north.

Prices of beef, pork, chicken, Fritos, Post Toasties and milk are rising or have risen.  I note that milk has risen some $0.80 per gallon in recent months.

Consider "energy returned on energy invested" -- EROEI, in the parlance of the world of oil.  For on-land oil wells, it has been roughly 100:1.  In the near offshroe, it's 30:1.  In the deepwater offshore, say 5,000 feet or more, it's more like 7:1.  That is, you got so much energy out for one barrel's equivalent put in.

For ethanol, it's 1.4:1.   

The 85/15 motor fuel, aside from any other problem, is about half the fuel mileage of 10/90.  One problem is boiling in hot weather.  If the fuel pump isn't in the gas tank, pushing instead of sucking, summertime can see a lot of vehicles stalled out because the fuel boiled.  "Cavitation".

Environmental effects?  One is a reduction of habitat for deer and pheasant, which doesn't help hunters very much.  Another is further depletion of the Ogalalla Aquaifer, which is already being drawn down well beyond its recharge rate.

But it's good for ADM and others, no matter the above-mentioned unintended consequences.

Art
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Gewehr98

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2007, 05:52:52 AM »
Art,

Not to argue, but I'm curious.

Quote
The resulst to date:  Corn is up from $2/bushel to (last I looked) $3.64 a bushel.  At $2, there is good profit in ethanol.  At $4, it's $0.04 per gallon, which has already meant that proposed ethanol production projects have been put on hold.

Which neck of the woods?  We're building several more in ours. I know of 7 of them that just broke ground in the last year.  It's news to me that they're being put on hold. I'll have to ask my pals at Monroe, Stanley, or Friesland what's up with that.

Wisconsin lags Iowa and Illinois in organic EToH production, and it's one stated goal to at least match them in production, starting with corn as the feedstock, then switching to cellulosic biomass.

As for the poor Mexicans and their tortillas, cry me a river.  How much Mexican corn is used for ethanol vs. making tortillas?  A relatively small amount of U.S. white corn is imported there to keep Mexican corn prices down so the beaners can have cheap tortillas. I'd wager all that corn could feed more sacred cows in India.

I read the Economist every now and then.  This caught my eye:

Quote
Food industry executives and some government officials initially attributed the price jump to tight supplies and higher international prices for corn owing to increased production of corn-based ethanol in the US. This was quickly debunked, as the corn consumed in Mexico is not of the same type as that used to produce the alternative fuel (Mexicans consume white cornmeal, while ethanol is made from yellow corn, which has limited uses for human consumption). Moreover, Mexican farmers produced a healthy-sized crop of white corn in 2006, according to official data.

http://www.economist.com/daily/news/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8575130


As part of the farm family, I know there are still on the order of 25,000,000 acres left fallow under PIK, so yeah, we're really taxing the farmland hard. Maybe we should plant more white corn specifically for the Mexicans so they can import it duty-free along with the rest of the corn they get from us, keeping their tortilla prices down?  It's remarkable how many things some Mexicans can find to blame the evil U.S. for.

Let me know if I'm off-base here, but it appears the angst from South of the Border is misplaced:

Quote
Are Mexican Tortilla Prices Affected by U.S. Yellow Corn Prices? In recent months, numerous media reports have suggested higher yellow corn prices and increased ethanol production in the United States are driving tortilla prices higher in Mexico. Its easy to see how an isolated view of the circumstances might lead to the conclusion thatU.S. yellow corn prices and Mexican tortilla prices are fundamentally linked. However, a broader view of the situation reveals numerous other political and market nuances are atplay. A longstanding statistics maxim suggests correlation does not imply causation. In thiscase, while the timing of the increases in U.S. yellow corn prices and Mexican tortilla prices appear well correlated, higher U.S. corn prices should not be interpreted as the sole cause of inflation in Mexican tortilla prices. A truly holistic approach to the issue demands consideration of several important facts, most of which have not been reported in media coverage of this situation. Mexican tortillas are principally made from Mexican-raised white corn. White corn typically accounts for less than 1 percent of corn production in the United States, with yellow cornconstituting the bulk of U.S. production. In 2005, U.S. corn producers planted approximately 700,000 acres to white corn, equating to less than 1 percent of the 81.8 million corn acres.The United States is the worlds largest yellow corn producer, but typically produces lessthan 5 percent of the world supply of white corn. The United States exports approximately 25-30 percent of its white corn to countries in Africa, Asia, and South and Central America. U.S. white corn exports have often helped offset shortages in those markets. White corn for direct human consumption is the primary variety grown in Mexico. White corndominates production in Mexico. The country typically plants 19-22 million acres to cornannually, the overwhelming majority of which is white corn. White corn is used in tortillaproduction because its soft starch is easily ground into meal. The processing of tortillas isfragmented and dispersed around Mexico, with 45,000 tortilla producers and 10,000 cornmillers.Ethanol is made from yellow cornnot white corn. Though uncommon, there is some substitutability between yellow and white corn in food and feed markets. Food-grade yellow corn is used to make corn flakes, chips, beer, and other foods, and white corn can be used as animal feed. However, the U.S. ethanol industry uses only yellow corn for biofuelsproduction. The United States exports very little white corn to Mexico because of existing over-quota import tariffs. Because of trade policies that discourage Mexican importation of significantvolumes of white corn, the countrys tortilla producers cannot rely on white corn imports tooffset domestic shortages caused by drought. The United States exports a significantamount of yellow corn to Mexico for use in the countrys feed and industrial processing markets, but white corn constituted just 2 percent of total U.S. corn exports to Mexico in2006. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) established quotas on the amountof white corn that can be imported by Mexico. In the last three years, over-quota white cornimports have been subject to steep import tariff rates (72.6 percent in 2004, 54.5 percent in2005, and 36.3 percent in 2006). According to the USDA Foreign Agricultural Service, the over-quota import tariff will apply to white corn, even in the case of a shortage. In responseto tight domestic supplies of white corn, Mexico President Felipe Calderon in January raisedthe quota for white corn imports. Since the over-quota tariff specified by NAFTA is graduallydeclining to zero, trade may increase markedly once this tariff falls to a level sufficient to make over-quota tariff economical.
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While prices for white corn do tend to track yellow corn prices in the United States, white andyellow corn world markets adhere to separate supply-demand curves and are influenced by independent market drivers and trade policies. U.S. yellow corn prices increased in the last quarter of 2006 due to heightened demand for exports and ethanol production. Because U.S. white corn typically trades at a 30-60 cent/bushel premium to yellow corn, white corn prices inthe United States increased in tandem with yellow corn prices. Though increasing world yellow corn prices may have had a minor influence on white corn prices in Mexico, a more significantprice driver is the fact that Mexican white corn supplies were diminished in 2006 due to drought conditions. Reduced production decreased Mexican stocks, resulting in higher cornprices for tortilla producers. The chart below shows that white corn prices in three corn-producing Mexican states (Sinaloa, Mexico and Jalisco) have been consistently $3/bushelhigher or more than white corn prices in the U.S. reference market of Louisville, KY. This proves that white corn has a distinctly different value curve in Mexican and U.S. markets and prices respond to different drivers. The chart also shows that Mexican white corn prices didntbegin to spike dramatically until December 06 or January 07, several months after U.S. pricesbegan to increase. Additionally, erratic white corn production in South Africa plays a major rolein global supply-demand cycles. White Corn Prices, U.S. & Mexico$0.00$2.00$4.00$6.00$8.00$10.00$12.00Jan-06Feb-06Mar-06Apr-06May-06Jun-06Jul-06Aug-06Sep-06Oct-06Nov-06Dec-06Jan-07Feb-07Mar-07$/bushelSinaloaMexicoJaliscoLouisville, KYLouisville, KY Yellow CornSources: Sistma Nacional de Informacion e Integracion de Mercados, and USDA, AMSThe Mexican government offers a number of farm programs to the countrys farmers toencourage domestic white corn production. In 2005, farmers raising spring and summer crops received a flat rate payment of 963 pesos/hectare ($37/acre). Smaller farms (1-5 hectares) received slightly higher payments. Additionally, the Mexican government paid $88.5 million inComplementary Income Support (CIS) on 3,100,000 metric tons of white corn in 2005. Bycomparison, the government paid $6 million in CIS for 142,000 metric tons of yellow corn.Global production of both white and yellow corn are expected to increase significantly in2007. In keeping with the basic principles of economic theory, white corn growers in Centraland South America are responding to tighter stocks of white corn in Mexico and higher pricesby increasing white corn supplies. Brazil and Argentina, the Western Hemispheres biggest corn exporters after the U.S., are expecting near-record harvests in 2007, according to arecent Associated Press report. And in response to increased white corn demand, Mexican farmers plan to expand corn acreage by 20 percent from 21 million acres to 25.3 million acres this year, according to the National Confederation of Mexican Corn Growers. For more information, contact the National Corn Growers Association at (636) 733-9004

http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/pdfs/032107MexicanTortillaPricesUSYellowCornPrices.pdf+tortillas+white+corn&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

Boy, are they gonna be ticked at us when we switch over to cellulosic ethanol production in our distilleries over the next few years and the price of Mexican corn heads for the bottom.  "The Evil U.S. conspired to bankrupt Mexican Farmers"  Much tinfoil hattery will ensue, just like the misinformation being propogated now.

Yes, I drive an E85 vehicle, one of the same ones in the GSA fleet. It's tuned to actually run on 85% EToH, not the 10% E10 that folks are grousing about when losing mileage.  I don't see the big mileage losses that the E10 users are complaining about, but that's a bonus of ethanol-specific engine tuning. In the motor vehicle world, the better way to use ethanol is in making E85. The 85 percent blend has a much lower vapor pressure than gasoline or E10. That means less evaporative emissions, a nice side-effect for the enviro-weenies to parlay to their advantage. If one were to commit to driving on E85, your engine could then be tuned to take advantage of the increased detonation resistance and faster flame speed ethanol offers. Running higher compression engines, with or without turbo- or super-charging, can increase HP and mileage performance from EtOH over gasoline performance. Dragsters and similar race vehicles have been running on methanol for decades. I note that there's a new turbocharged Saab engine designed especially for ethanol, and it gets 25 percent more power running on ethanol than on gasoline, with the same mileage.  The technology's here.

The question is, who you gonna believe?  I made the committment, and according to wacki (that name cracks me up in the irony alone) and others I'm living a big lie here.  So be it, and I'm glad we're on good terms with the Canadians for the petroleum we import from them vs. the warm reception we're getting from oh-so-stable Jihadistan. 

But I digress. All options that allow citizens to drive themselves everywhere they think they need to go are less environmentally friendly than those that do not. Period. The BIG problem is not what Americans are putting in their cars, it's that they own cars at all. Now, it's certainly not palpable to ask America to give up their cars; they won't even give up their oversized SUVs and truck/car crossovers when they couldn't possibly give you a good reason that they own such a fuel guzzler. That's their Gawd-given right, and I won't deny them that.  Death threats would ensue were I to tell a soccer mommy that she doesn't need an Excursion to tote her precious cargo to and from Chuck E. Cheese. 

Bottom Line:  There's no silver bullet.  Stop looking for one.  We're about that far from the Golden BB, as it were. EToH from corn is an interim measure, giving us the technology and inertia to take it further to cellulosic EToH (already happening in pilot stage in Canada) and other sustainable biofuels not coming from finite fossile reservoirs in unfriendly countries. 
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K Frame

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2007, 06:08:51 AM »
Art,

Many of those market price factors are also greatly affected by the current high cost of petroleum products.

Not just gasoline and diesel, but lubricants and even the myriad of petroleum based fertilizers, herbicides, and insecticides.

It's not all just that corn is getting turned into ethanol.
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MechAg94

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2007, 10:41:02 AM »
I think I'll pass on buying shares in ethanol.  I don't like the idea of buying shares in a business whose sole reason for existence is govt subsidies. 

That said, I doubt the pollution is any worse than your average refinery.  Just typical air and water pollution permitted by the state and federales.
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wooderson

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2007, 05:15:03 PM »
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I wasn't commenting on the subject of alcohol's viability as a petroleum-based fuel substitute.  I was commenting on the article, which is a bunch of "sky-is-falling" envirocraptastic BS.

One flaw: CNSNews is a right-wing front, a subsidiary of the MRC. The article isn't "envirocraptastic BS" - it's anti-environmentalist. "SEE THOSE PINKO ENVIRONMENTALISTS ARE CAUSING POLLUTION TOO!!!!"

Never mind that I don't know anyone who thinks ethanol is a solution - the enviros I know are raising hell because ethanol production (and vegetarians) are helping propel deforestation as we require more corn and soy here in the first world - we couldn't let facts get in the way of a CNS hit.
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brimic

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2007, 02:18:47 AM »
The right-wing free-marketers had it figured out that gasoline substitutes and additives were no good for the consumer or for the environment long before the 'environmentalists' even started pissing their own pants over the pollution MTBE causes to groundwater- stuff they originally insisted to be added to gasoline. rolleyes The environmentalists only jumped on the 'ethanol is bad for the environment' bandwagon recently.
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Art Eatman

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2007, 06:11:36 AM »
I'm a subscriber to "Strategic Investment", part of the Agora Publishing.  There are free daily email newsletters that go along with my paid subscription.

In one of them, the comment was made that of some 74 new ethanol plants that had been proposed, about a half had been put on hold because of the rising prices in the corn market.  I assume that plants which were already on the verge of construction, or had all their permits and financing lined up, continued on their way.

Mexico may import relatively little white corn, but the price of white corn has risen with the price of yellow corn.  One may not have sympathy for poor Mexicans, but unrest down south means more of them coming north.  It's the "coming north" that concerns me.

Sure, fuel costs affect the food items and such, but it's a cumulative thing.  And it's factual that the price of corn has risen by some 80% in this last year or so.  So, fuel costs, corn costs, labor costs, higher taxes...

I'm a numbers guy, okay?  I have read--and correct me if I'm wrong--that if the entire US corn crop were used for ethanol, it would equal one month's gasoline consumption.

So:  1/12th = about 8%.  8.3333..., if you're picky.  That is, all gasoline across the nation could be diluted by roughly 8% to 10% at today's use rate.  But no corn to eat, whether people food or animal food.  Further, farmers would shift to corn and plant less of other food crops or feed grains.  "Market turmoil" and higher costs for many other products.  And world oil production will continue its decline.  And then?

So I still believe this gasahol thing is BS for the nation as a whole.  Sure, it is short-term helpful for farmers, and possibly profitable for the refiners, but the cold-blooded money folks are predicting some sad faces in the ethanol business in the relatively near future.

Look:  Over the last six or seven years, the folks at Strategic Investment have very rarely missed on their predictions of market sectors or individual stocks and funds.  Roughly, about twenty items in the advisory portfolio.  And lots of commentary about why they like or dislike anything.  Few profits less than 20% and many well above that.  (IIRC, they recommended Valero when it was around $37.  In March, it was $57.)

Damfino...

Art
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Gewehr98

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2007, 06:42:38 AM »
Art, why do you keep harping the "gasahol for the entire U.S." thing?

I know in my many postings on the subject I never broached that concept.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY out there is advertising E10 or E85 as the Silver Bullet to fill every American's gas tank in the CONUS.  (Well, maybe you are...)

I find that argument disingenuous, and somewhat irksome, especially coming from somebody as normally level-headed as you. 

It's one of many alternative fuel techniques designed to wean us off of our fossil fuel dependency, until we're all driving cars with little Mr. Fusion appliances being fed by table scraps.  There's a lot of lead time between here and there, and our Saudi friends are fudging the reserve numbers in the meantime, so yeah, biodiesel, EToH, electric, fuel cell, hydrogen, steamers, they all bear some serious looking at.  We 'Merkins are a stubborn lot, Soccer Mommy won't take all her little crotch-fruits to Chuck E. Cheese's on the city bus.  So we keep on motorin'.

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brimic

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2007, 07:06:25 AM »
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It's one of many alternative fuel techniques designed to wean us off of our fossil fuel dependency,
It certainly doesn't wean us off of anything. Its at best a feel-good measure that fills the pockets of the corn/fertilizer/pesticide industry at worst its driving up the price of every corn related product and tilling up land that doesn't need to be tilled. Sure, the farmers can now profitably grow corn on land they were 'paid' by sugardaddy .gov to leave fallow, but they are just trading one artificial subsidy for another. Either way, the consumers are the ones who take it in the shorts.
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Gewehr98

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2007, 07:12:11 AM »
Ok, Brimic, you got a burr under your saddle, I understand. I'm livin' a big lie filling up at $2.44/gallon yesterday, I'm cool with that, tinfoil hattery notwithstanding. This consumer is really suffering horribly, almost as much as when his family's corn prices were so low over the last 30 years that the repo man came to take the farm on more than one occasion. I weep now that corn's demand outstrips the supply, really, I do.

Third World nations starving so we can drive to the corner convenience store?  Yeah, ok, sure. I did some digging on the food thing.   Cornflakes are all of about 8% of the total weight of the box. Less than five percent of the price of a box of corn flakes represents the cost of the corn - the rest is transportation, packaging, Super Bowl commercials, little plastic-wrapped toys for your kids, and more. Heck, the price of the box alone probably exceeds the cost of the corn inside.

Now, tell me what the One True Sword is with respect to us sucking the petroleum teat dry, will 'ya?
The 20th Century and early 21st Century sure were fun while the cheap oil lasted, I'll say that much.

Lot's of bitchin', not much workin' on the problem.  Soccer Mommies in Excursions and "Tahoes-with-Codpieces" Hummer H2 drivers eagerly await your answer. Wink 
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Brad Johnson

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2007, 07:14:38 AM »

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It certainly doesn't wean us off of anything.


So you're saying that burning two gallons of domestically produced ethanol does not eliminate the need to burn that gallon of foreign-sourced gasoline?

Brad

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brimic

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Re: 'Green' Energy Source a Major Polluter
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2007, 07:39:32 AM »
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So you're saying that burning two gallons of domestically produced ethanol does not eliminate the need to burn that gallon of foreign-sourced gasoline?
I'm forced by law to use 10% ethanol gasoline. I get approximately 7-8% better gas milage when I can fill up on uncut gasoline. Mind you, the 10% blend is required by law in my area under the Clean Air Act, and its been proven to cause just as much if not more pollution than straight gasoline. Reason being is that it takes more gallons of it to drive x number of miles and the amount of pollution reduction would be marginal even if it did give the same MPG as straight gasoline.


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Ok, Brimic, you got a burr under your saddle,
I seriously do.
Ever since I moved to the Milwaukee area, I have no choice but to buy adulterated gasoline that costs more, gives fewer MPG, and wreaks havok on 2-cycle engines if extra precautions with maintenance aren't followed. I have a 25HP mercury outboard on my boat that runs rough on that crap, but will purr like a kitten on uncut gasoline.

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Lot's of bitchin', not much workin' on the problem.  Soccer Mommies in Excursions and "Tahoes-with-Codpieces" Hummer H2 drivers eagerly await your answer.
I would like the free market to sort this out. Do away with the useless 10% blend and other government mandated ethanol blends and allow consumers to make a  choice between E85 and straight gasoline. We have E85 available in my village, its price looks very attractive. If gasoline prices rise to $4 or more, people will staqrt ditching the SUVs and opt for smaller cars- they have to unles they have enormously deep pockets. I myself have been trying to convince my wife that one of the loud shiny 2-wheeled vehicles that are made where she works would drastically cut down on our fuel bill (I currently have a 35 mile commute), I darn near had her talked into one a month ago when we were paying $4/gal for gasoline.

I don't fault you at all for making a living off the industry, a man's got to eat.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama