Author Topic: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!  (Read 9323 times)

Euclidean

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Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« on: November 05, 2007, 06:53:42 PM »
One of my favorite secular holidays, thought I made this thread this morning, but better late than never.

Quote
Remember, remember the Fifth of November,
The Gunpowder Treason and Plot,
I know of no reason
Why Gunpowder Treason
Should e'er be forgot.
Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes, t'was his intent
To blow up King and Parli'ment.
Three-score barrels of powder below
To prove old England's overthrow;
By God's providence he was catch'd
With a dark lantern and burning match!

I observe Guy Fawkes Day by buying something explosive, usually ammunition.

Paddy

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2007, 07:00:16 PM »
A bungling Catholic terrorist who ultimately committed suicide?  Why is this to be celebrated?  And what was so bad about James I?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2007, 07:19:11 PM »
Why is this to be celebrated? 

Apparently because of the bungling.  Guy Fawkes isn't celebrated so much as burnt in effigy.   smiley


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Euclidean

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2007, 07:37:44 PM »
For me, it's a reminder to question the nature of authority and a harsh lesson in valuing religious freedom.  There's considerable evidence Fawkes and the others were framed to create a reason for a new wave of anti Catholic hysteria.

James I was not a big supporter of civil rights, not that anyone in his day was, but his refusal to hear any religious petitions or criticisms and continuation of Elizabeth I's policies were a damn good reason he should be blown up.  Fawkes, despite what else you can say about him, was not a perfect man, but he stood up for his religious freedom.  That's balls.  That's the kind of balls I hope I'd have if someone ever tried to ban my religion.

It makes me very glad we have as much religious freedom as we do when I think about Guy Fawkes Day.  While it was certainly not have been Fawkes' intention, I sincerely believe his actions contributed to the development of this by showing what happens when you try to force a state religion.

Also, just on the side and really it's a coincidence, James I wanted to unite Scotland and England, something my ancestors allegedly opposed FWIW.  My ancestors (in a later century) were also pressured to leave Scotland because they were the wrong religion according to the government at the time.  They'd be proud of Guy...

CAnnoneer

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2007, 07:46:23 PM »
I am not certain "terrorist" is a correct term for Guy Fox.  A terrorist is one that kills civilians indiscriminately to produce terror/fear. Guy specifically wanted to get James and the parliament. A terrorist would have hit the Globe Theatre. Guy was many things, but terrorist he was not, imo.

Finch

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2007, 08:45:57 PM »
Yes, happy Guy Fawkes day indeed...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/us/politics/06paul.html?ref=us

Quote

Historians and British schoolchildren remember Guy Fawkes as the Roman Catholic, anti-Protestant rebel who on Nov. 5, 1605, tried to assassinate King James I by blowing up the Parliament. Supporters of the Republican primary campaign of the libertarian Representative Ron Paul may remember Fawkes as a wildly successful fund-raising gimmick.

On Monday, a group of Paul supporters helped raised more than $4.07 million in one day  approaching what the campaign raised in the entire last quarter  through a Web site called ThisNovember5th.com, a reference to the day the British commemorate the thwarted bombing.
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LadySmith

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2007, 09:22:47 PM »
I almost overlooked this day, but I popped "V for Vendetta" in the DVD when I got home from work and was delighted by the circumstance. Coincidence?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2007, 02:39:11 AM »
Quote
I sincerely believe his actions contributed to the development of this by showing what happens when you try to force a state religion.


What happens, apparently, is that your freedom fighter gets nabbed by five-oh before he can do anything, and gets burned in effigy for the next four hundred years, along with the Pope.  Correct?  In the larger context, certain members of the religious minority attempt to put one of their candidates on the throne.  Over about 150 years, their efforts prove useless, despite having legitimate heirs to the throne and French support. 

Or am I incorrect?
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Len Budney

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2007, 02:55:33 AM »
Why is this to be celebrated? 

Apparently because of the bungling.  Guy Fawkes isn't celebrated so much as burnt in effigy.   smiley

Exactly. Guy Fawkes day was the king's idea, to perpetuate the myth that resistance is futile.

Ron Paul supporters have tossed around the idea of celebrating Guy Fawkes day with the opposite intent, and it finally took shape as a big fundraiser. I gave my $100.

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Euclidean

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2007, 09:18:17 AM »
Quote
I sincerely believe his actions contributed to the development of this by showing what happens when you try to force a state religion.


What happens, apparently, is that your freedom fighter gets nabbed by five-oh before he can do anything, and gets burned in effigy for the next four hundred years, along with the Pope.  Correct?  In the larger context, certain members of the religious minority attempt to put one of their candidates on the throne.  Over about 150 years, their efforts prove useless, despite having legitimate heirs to the throne and French support. 

Or am I incorrect?

You quit too early fistful.  In later centuries, we see how people like my aforementioned ancestors were slowly edged out of their own country and often were either exiled to or else fled to this place called America, where lo and behold, eventually they would create this crazy idea that gee, maybe a state religion is a very bad idea.  It took the resulting decades of lashing out against Catholics and other groups (such as Scottish Presbyterians) before change would ever come.  Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you can rise back up again.

If the Gunpowder Plot and the other attempted coups had never happened, the events which occurred after them wouldn't have unfolded in the same way, nor would we be able to look back at this today and realize that both sides were ultimately wrong.  If there hadn't been a struggle against James I and those who would come afterwards, the world would never have questioned the merit of a state religion.  It took centuries of struggle before we saw the advent of the idea of religious freedom ever become a reality, and I personally choose not to ignore that struggle or treat it as useless or irrelevant to human history.  Even if they failed in their contemporary goals, ultimately, their struggle was not in vain because it gave birth to new and better ideas.

You also act like Fawkes launched some hair brained scheme and failed, when the reality is he was probably set up from the get go.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2007, 12:07:58 PM »
You also act like Fawkes launched some hair brained scheme and failed, when the reality is he was probably set up from the get go. 


I don't mean to "act like" anything.  Bungling was Riley's word.  I don't pretend to know much more about Fawkes than the average bloke.  I don't know if he was a screw-up, or if he was set up.  Don't care, as yet, although it may be interesting to study sometime. 


But I must say that if you want to celebrate religious freedom, you might be better off with Reformation Day.   
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roo_ster

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2007, 12:49:31 PM »
fistful:

My church made a big hoo-ha about Reformation Day.  Pretty natural, considering that it is LCMS.  I wonder what the Calvinists & the theological descendants of Zwingli think about Reformation Day being on the anniversary of Luther posting the 95 Theses?

My wife & I save up and celebrate a combo of holidays with one big gift each year: Guy Fawkes Day, Anniversary, jfruser's b-day, Christmas, NYD, wife's b-day, Valentine's Day.  GFD was a joke at first, but it allows me to tell folks about the holiday.  I think I need to toss in Reformation Day, too.

Personally, I am much in favor celebrating the deaths of traitors.  We should do so more often and provide more reasons to celebrate such days by offing traitors at a fair pace.
Regards,

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2007, 12:56:50 PM »
fistful:

My church made a big hoo-ha about Reformation Day.  Pretty natural, considering that it is LCMS. 

Which denomination is that?
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wooderson

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2007, 01:16:30 PM »
Quote
A terrorist is one that kills civilians indiscriminately to produce terror/fear.

Er... that's a bit of stretch. That is as much a definition driven by agenda as one designed to make Fawkes a 'terrorist.'

A better definition would be something like a "the use of violence to achieve political ends" with some language in there to differentiate it from, say, war. (nb: by that definition, Fawkes was a terrorist - but without being particularly negative)
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2007, 01:22:38 PM »
fistful:

My church made a big hoo-ha about Reformation Day.  Pretty natural, considering that it is LCMS. 

Which denomination is that? 


Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod 

That explains a lot about jfruser.   cheesy  Since I live in their home territory, I get to listen to them on the radio every day.  Man, what a lovable bunch of kooks.   smiley
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2007, 03:33:01 PM »
Er... that's a bit of stretch. That is as much a definition driven by agenda as one designed to make Fawkes a 'terrorist.'

A better definition would be something like a "the use of violence to achieve political ends" with some language in there to differentiate it from, say, war. (nb: by that definition, Fawkes was a terrorist - but without being particularly negative)

Since the media and teacher-indoctrinators use psychological violence to achieve political ends, then by your definition, they are terrorists too.

wooderson

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2007, 03:35:25 PM »
Where's the eye-rolling emoticon again?
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2007, 05:49:17 PM »
fistful:

My church made a big hoo-ha about Reformation Day.  Pretty natural, considering that it is LCMS. 

Which denomination is that? 


Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod 

That explains a lot about jfruser.   cheesy  Since I live in their home territory, I get to listen to them on the radio every day.  Man, what a lovable bunch of kooks.   smiley
HEY!!

Perd Hapley

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2007, 06:13:29 PM »
And now a few things become clear about HTG, as well.   cheesy


Really, it's a love-hate relationship I have with them.  To be clear, we're talking about seminary-folk, so I may not be getting representative sample of the LCMS as a whole.  I have a lot to say on this subject, so I won't thread-jack.   smiley



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charby

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2007, 01:16:52 PM »
And now a few things become clear about HTG, as well.   cheesy


Really, it's a love-hate relationship I have with them.  To be clear, we're talking about seminary-folk, so I may not be getting representative sample of the LCMS as a whole.  I have a lot to say on this subject, so I won't thread-jack.   smiley





Start a new post with the title  Why Fistful has a love-hate relationship with LCMS

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charby

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2012, 01:38:13 PM »
Necromancer duties!

Happy Guy Fawkes Day!

« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 01:47:28 PM by charby »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2012, 03:07:55 PM »
Oh, very sensitive. Let's celebrate the oppression of religious minorities. Why do you hate Catholics?  :P
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2012, 04:13:55 PM »
Some old voices in this thread... where'd they all get off to?

Happy Guy Fawkes Day to all!  Everyone remember to oppress fistful a bit just for good measure.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2012, 04:46:50 PM »
I always liked the Yeoman Warder giving the tour at Buckingham and the way he described it....

"Guy Fawkes is famous for being the only man to enter Parliament with honest, noble intentions, a clear agenda, and the resources to see it through... he intended to blow the place up."

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Re: Happy Guy Fawkes Day!
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2020, 02:14:02 PM »
Thread necro for the Fifth of November, 2020.

Happy Guy Fawkes Day, everyone.

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