Remember, its a small problem. Not all cops are guilty...Right.

[vernal45]

Did it say something, you damn right.  And what did I get for it?  Other cops called me a traitor, said I should have ignored it, to out a brother was not right.  Does that answer your question.?



I will make a promise, right now.  I will not post another discussion about LE, ever again on this forum..  Good enough....

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

if the answer was yes you are a stand up guy if no... well you were part of the problem at best

[vernal45]

READ what I edited above.  I did stand up.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

good for ya  and i believe ya about how the other guys acted. i know some other guys did the right thing got similar reaction. sometimes doing the right thing can suck.   funny thing is i see the  same attitudes in other career fields  doctors and lawyers are good examples.i yhink its a "there but by the grace of god go i" reaction. its incumbant on the hirarchy to do the difficult right thing too. sometimes unions get in the way.we had a good example out here a few years back  cop slapped his ex girlfriend and punched her new boyfriend. they cuffed him charged him and he lost his job that nite.  and he was a decent guy and a real good cop.  made no one happy but it had to be done.  its a shame it didn't work that way for you. everybody loses when that happens

[vernal45]

I want to respect cops, I really do.  I want citizens and police work together.  Cops say that they do not know if the person they are dealing with will hurt them.  Well, with me, its the same.  I do not know if the cop that approaches me, pulls me over, or knocks on my door is a good or bad cop.  I dont know what the solution is, but putting police in jail for crimes the commit while wearing the badge (especially if a citizen would be jailed for the same thing) is a good place to start. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i'd agree with that. around here i see it happen. less so in the city and where there is a strong union. a cop knows how to lawyer up and use the system

[Hawkmoon]

Though the number of cases is small,

more than 20 cases in which judges found police officers testimony to be unreliable, inconsistent, twisting the truth, or just plain false. The judges language was often withering: patently incredible, riddled with exaggerations, unworthy of belief.


Last week, the Police Department reported a spike in street stops, which it said were an essential law enforcement tool: 145,098 from January through March,



20 cases outa more than a 1/2 million stops and you "THINK" IMO, this article sums up police officers today.  The minority are the good ones, and good only because the do not act the way the bad officers do.  Yet they are just as bad as the rotten officers because they do nothing to stop them..."

how do you "think" that. especially extrapolated from those kinda numbers

Well, how about looking at that one cop's testimony? He said he and his partner made 50 stops in 3 days, and found one gun. Remember, the stops that didn't turn up a gun (or drugs) never make it to court -- but that doesn't make them legal stops.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

from your expert perspective, as an author  how would you have the cops conduct their buisness

[BlueStarLizzard]

for the officers involved, perhaps some displanary actions are necessary. this is not a nice problem. it lets criminals go back to the streets, loses potential information about other criminals and (as we have seen right here) causes many citizens to strongly distrust LEOs, which can only make a difficult job even more difficult.

[vernal45]

No admin actions at all, except for the smallest of problems. No cops investigating cops. If it is a crime that a citizen would be arrested for, jailed, tried in front of a judgen and jury, it should apply to cops. Period.

The lawbis the law. No exceptions. When I wore a badge we were taught to enforce the law by example first. You can't have a cop not even see a booking room and a night in jail when any normal unbadged citizen would. Cops WILL not police their own. So we as citizens, their employers, we need to raise hell, make our feelings known. That is the only way a change will happen.

[LadySmith]

No admin actions at all, except for the smallest of problems. No cops investigating cops. If it is a crime that a citizen would be arrested for, jailed, tried in front of a judgen and jury, it should apply to cops. Period.

The lawbis the law. No exceptions. When I wore a badge we were taught to enforce the law by example first. You can't have a cop not even see a booking room and a night in jail when any normal unbadged citizen would. Cops WILL not police their own. So we as citizens, their employers, we need to raise hell, make our feelings known. That is the only way a change will happen.

Makes sense to me.
Vernal45, it seems like you were a credit to the force. I'm sorry they lost you. 

[ilbob]

from your expert perspective, as an author  how would you have the cops conduct their buisness

I don't think there is a good answer to dealing with LE misconduct. As long as the people who are doing the investigating are from the same subset of people who may or may not have committed some misconduct, there is little chance of getting a fair investigation.

There are practical issues here too. if every cop who did something rotten got fired, you would run out of cops pretty quick. So as a practical matter, you have to give them a pass most of the time.

[cordex]

The figure you cited (145,098)

was for 3 months stops

I see how you're getting half a million now, but considering the sample of 20 cases was out of a universe of "more than 1,000 cases" and not even every case tried (much less all the stops), your extrapolation was pretty poor.  20 out of 1,000 is very different than 20 out of 145,098 or 20 out of 580,000 ...

"So, about 40 people were searched based on a police officer's "technique" for determining probable cause and out of those, all but one were searched based on a laughable "technique".  So one guilty guy goes free after 29 to 49 innocent people were selected for a search in a manner that a judge considered illicit?  Where is the incentive for the police officer to change his strategy?"

here do you imagine they searched all those folks?  big difference between a search and a stop  but heck "it coulda happened that way" as charlene drew jarvis would put it

Considering the context (relating the effectiveness of a technique to determine if someone was carrying a firearm), I assumed that some sort of search was conducted to determine if those people targeted by the officer's technique were in fact carrying a weapon.  If not, it's hard to imagine why the officer would have brought up that figure.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i was in the same biz as vernal  other side of the street though. have extensive arrest search etc experience. most stops i've seen in the areas where i played were real fast. often no more than who are you why you here. and the cops aren't paying as much attention to what you say as how your pupils look how you smell and a bunch of less definitive lil clues that they may not be able to articulate, much less justify to someone who  isn't familiar with the game. street sense is a requirement for folks on both sides of the crime game.its a fine line to walk though and some lazy less gifted cops cross over it.once they cross the line its a slippery slope for them. its a game with the cops on one side and lawyers and crooks on the other. stakes are high for 2 outa three of those folks. if you really imagine those 2 cops search that many folks in a day you give em credit for working real hard. maybe get someone to bodyguard you and go hang out in the hood sometime and check it out. a whole lotta important busts happen cause the cops get lucky working the streets. i know that it hurts some folks feelings when its them getting caught with a bag of weed  but hey  thats all part of the game  don't cry.  and if the trauma is too bad get the laws changed . hate the game not the player

[cordex]

i was in the same biz as vernal  other side of the street though. have extensive arrest search etc experience. most stops i've seen in the areas where i played were real fast. often no more than who are you why you here. and the cops aren't paying as much attention to what you say as how your pupils look how you smell and a bunch of less definitive lil clues that they may not be able to articulate, much less justify to someone who  isn't familiar with the game. street sense is a requirement for folks on both sides of the crime game.its a fine line to walk though and some lazy less gifted cops cross over it.once they cross the line its a slippery slope for them. its a game with the cops on one side and lawyers and crooks on the other. stakes are high for 2 outa three of those folks.

Frankly, this isn't very relevant.  The issue is that in 2% of the examined cases, judges exercised the exclusionary rule which by definition applies to illegal activities on the part of police and prosecutors.  In other words, a judge examined the case and said "Officer Friendly broke the law when he did [ ... ] so you can't use the evidence he found while doing it."

if you really imagine those 2 cops search that many folks in a day you give em credit for working real hard. maybe get someone to bodyguard you and go hang out in the hood sometime and check it out. a whole lotta important busts happen cause the cops get lucky working the streets.

The problem is that you're ignoring that in the judge's opinion, the strategy was hardly better than randomly guessing who might have a gun and the officers' behavior while utilizing the technique was bad enough that evidence necessary to the prosecution of this criminal was suppressed.  This is not based on my analysis of police techniques, nor on your intimate knowledge of the case, just what a news report states that a judge is on record saying.

i know that it hurts some folks feelings when its them getting caught with a bag of weed  but hey  thats all part of the game  don't cry.  and if the trauma is too bad get the laws changed . hate the game not the player

The actions in question are already against the law, which is why the exclusionary rule exists at all.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

"the judge's opinion"

ahhh yes  the judges opinion  same offer judge gets a bodyguard and goes to hang in the hood. heck most of em would wet themselves.   bear in mind i liked judges back in the day.  they were an important force helping me keep getting high. i'm sure the economy of south america appreciated it too

[Nitrogen]

OP, don't ever call the police if something happens to you or your family.  Since they're so untrustworthy, just handle it yourself.  House gets broken into, don't report it.  Daughter gets kidnapped, look yourself, don't call the FBI.  Since the whole concept of police is such a bad idea, you'd be best to just detach yourself completely and handle everything yourself.

Not a bad idea, unless your daughter is lucky enough to be attractive and blonde, and luckier enough still to get Fox News's attention.
I'd probably report it to the police, but not expect anything. 

[vernal45]

Here is another example, this time the ending is good, somewhat... Yet disturbing that it goes on, and IMO is wide spread.. In this case, the offenders, the criminals were cops.  And they are being tried and jailed, this is a good thing.  But when you have a prevailing attitude in LE that you are above the law, you dont like people that "do the right thing".


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,355796,00.html

Former Atlanta Police Officer Admits Covering Up Botched Raid that Killed Elderly Woman

Wednesday, May 14, 2008

AP
ADVERTISEMENT

ATLANTA 
A former Atlanta police officer on trial for a botched drug raid that led to the death of a 92-year-old woman said Wednesday he went along with a cover-up because he felt threatened by his fellow officers.

Kathryn Johnston was shot 39 times as plainclothes narcotics officers busted into her house using a "no-knock" warrant on Nov. 26, 2006. During nearly eight hours of testimony, Arthur Tesler said he was instructed by two other officers after the shooting to memorize a cover-up story that they had witnessed an informant buying drugs at Johnston's home.

Tesler also told the jury in Fulton County Superior Court that he didn't know officer Jason R. Smith had lied to a judge to get the warrant and then planted drugs in Johnston's basement to back up the story. In his often tearful testimony, Tesler said he eventually decided to cooperate with federal investigators because he "couldn't take it anymore."

"A woman was dead and they were trying to implicate me in their story," Tesler said. "I didn't lay a hand on this woman. I wanted nothing to do with it."
Prosecutors say Tesler had opportunities to tell the truth but decided to do so only when federal agents told him they knew he was lying.

Tesler was in the backyard of Johnston's home during the raid, during which Johnston fired one shot from a pistol as police were breaking down her door. She did not hit any of the officers.

Fulton County prosecutor Kelly S. Hill has said even though Tesler never fired a shot, he shared responsibility for Johnston's death because he went along with a lie.

The Rev. Al Sharpton, who was sitting in the courtroom during the morning, called Tesler's testimony "chilling" and the shooting "a complete disregard for the criminal justice system."

Tesler is charged with lying in an official investigation, violating his oath as an officer and false imprisonment. The trial is likely to be the only one in the Johnston shooting because former officers Gregg Junnier and Smith have already pleaded guilty to state manslaughter and federal civil rights charges. Junnier testified against Tesler last week.

The fatal shooting led to sharp criticism of the police department, and a shake-up of the narcotics unit, which Tesler's attorney, William McKenney, has said routinely planted drugs and lied to obtain search warrants. It also prompted a review of how officers obtain and use no-knock warrants, which are intended to keep drug suspects from having time to destroy evidence.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i know your own bad experience colors your thinking but citing a case here cops are convicted as an example of what they get away wth doesn't work well

[Matthew Carberry]

I believe the point is that the investigations of the few guys who actually face trial often show widespread abuse that was never dealt with, criminally or even administratively.

These Atlanta cops, Rampart, any number of others.

One or two guys actually go down, but only after long stretches of lots more of their fellows breaking the rules without any consequences.

The few prosecutions end up illuminating the existence of wider problems, not contradicting them.

[vernal45]

Bingo....carebear.  Well said......

[LadySmith]

I remember the Kathryn Johnston murder. Tragic. 
It's good to see some justice coming out of it.

[cordex]

"the judge's opinion"

ahhh yes  the judges opinion  same offer judge gets a bodyguard and goes to hang in the hood. heck most of em would wet themselves.   bear in mind i liked judges back in the day.  they were an important force helping me keep getting high. i'm sure the economy of south america appreciated it too

I must not be understanding you.  Are you saying that if I or the judge in this case went out and saw the mean streets that you're so familiar with, we'd start to advocate the idea of police breaking the law?  Didn't you just say a little bit ago that if we didn't like the law we should get it changed and not complain about it?  Well, by the same token, if the Fourth and Fifth amendments are too much of a restraint for cops hangin' in the hood, maybe police and prosecutors should work to have them (and, in this case, the judicial rules used to enforce said amendments) overturned.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

oh i think you understand fine. pretending not too is safer though, for you and thr judge. if you ever come do the tourist thing in dc let me know i'll take you where tour mobile won't  and i don't go some places any more

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't understand this problem some of you have with cops.  I get along with them fine, on the few occasions we even have any interaction.