Army Orders Pain Ray Trucks; New Report Shows 'Potential for Death'

[K Frame]

"Way too many people in law enforcement (I do not say they are a majority, but even one such guy is too many, IMO) think Tazers are a method to force compliance even on people who are not violent. That is bad."

And removing the tasers and pepper spray, as some would do, leaves officers with only two options above saying "pretty please" and a choke hold... the baton or the bullet.

[MicroBalrog]

Idea: Better police training and funding?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

and that would change their clientel how?

[K Frame]

"Better training?"

What, so they can be even more persuasive when they beg you to be a good little boy and not throw rocks at them?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

as someone who lived through the pre tazer days, as opposed to reading a white paper about them, i think tazers save lots of folks from getting hurt.both sides. a tazer is like nuclear detterence. it comes out and those with an brain say ok i'll comply. as opposed to taking a beating to force compliance

[MicroBalrog]

"Better training?"

What, so they can be even more persuasive when they beg you to be a good little boy and not throw rocks at them?

So they can know not to taze a guy when they have a separate police officer sitting on every extremity and one more on his back?

So they can know not to taze a 92-year-old lady?

So they can know not to use tazers on guys who throw bricks at them, but instead beat down on them with a proper stick?

Britain introduced unarmed police in the late 19th century, when everybody and his auntie had a gun in that country. It seems to have worked out for them better than what they have now.

as someone who lived through the pre tazer days,

Living in an era doesn't make you more knowledgeable about it than the guy who wrote the white paper. I know plenty of 80-year-old people who don't have even a shred of clue.

[K Frame]

Quoting about something that happened 100 years ago in a different country, with a completely different set of parameters...

Well, you know how that's going to end.

I'm not going to categorically say that ANY of the tazings that you quote were wrong.

They may have been, they may not have been. It's kind of hard to tell based on what we read in a newspaper and on the web.

[MicroBalrog]

Look, I really don't see what problem you see with what I said.

I don't say that cops are bad people, or that they need to stop using tazers. All I say is that when there's controversy around some people - who are quite possibly bad apples - using tazers irresponsibly, those responsible need not just to issue a press release saying 'we'll review our training practices', but actually do it.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you can say your sorry to someone tazed  not so after stick time


"I know plenty of 80-year-old people who don't have even a shred of clue."

could we have their names so we could ask their assessment as to you having a clue?

[MicroBalrog]

you can say your sorry to someone tazed  not so after stick time

Here's an idea: If you throw a full-sized brick at a cop, you are putting his life in immediate risk - a friend of mine had a cousin in law enforcement who got killed by one. I have no problem with a person being hit with a stick if they do that.

But if a person is lying on the ground and refusing (or unable) to move, maybe it's not a good idea to hit them with God knows how many volts?

could we have their names so we could ask their assessment as to you having a clue?

No, it's not quite likely I'll give you the RL contact data of people I know. I will freely put out mine online, true, but there's a limit to my carelessness.



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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you don't see the irony of someone not yet left the nest deriding folks who've been there? done that?  another layer of irony

[MicroBalrog]

you don't see the irony of someone not yet left the nest deriding folks who've been there? done that?  another layer of irony

Experience is not the only source of knowledge, you know. It's not even the best one.

Besides, I've served in the military, am completing the first degree of college this year, and hold a job that pays more than my Dad's (per hour. I work less hours than he does, but that'll change starting in November).

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

hard being that good?  hows dad take it?  i mean some dads would have trouble with a kid that much superior to em.... still at home

[MicroBalrog]

hard being that good?  hows dad take it?  i mean some dads would have trouble with a kid that much superior to em.... still at home

My Dad doesn't take anything well. I believe you read my previous threads on this issue.

And Dad thinks he's superior to everyone.

The solution to this riddle is actually much simple and there's little to brag about.

Dad's profession is useless in Israel - he holds an MA in Russian Literature. So he works for a minimum wage, which is about $5 an hour, your money.

I translate subtitles for lame, lame, lame US shows (think Biggest Loser or Flavor of Love). I get paid $41.5 [approximately] for a 20-minute segment that I get done in about two hours if I take my sweet time doing it, an hour if I'm in a hurry and don't loaf around. I usually take two or three of these a week because I also need to do schoolwork - but come November I'm going to have an amazingly easy semester, so I'm going to take more of them.

If anything, of course, I have Dad to thank for it - he started teaching me English at a very early age, and though he hasn't learned it himself, he made sure I go through all the exercises in the books until I actually had the hang of it, and then paid for me to go to a proper private school. I started working as a translator for real at age of 17. It has come in very useful since.

[Manedwolf]

I thought they backed off on this silly thing when it was demonstrated that someone behind a large metallic sheet could defeat it?

In this case, tinfoil CAN stop the government's rays.

So can a 1970's Navy "Coverall, Microwave Radiation Protective", widely available surplus, an all-covering garment with hood that would completely negate this thing. It's mesh, acts like the grid in a microwave door, was meant for techs working on radar while it was active. If it could stop you from being burned by a full-power dish emitting, it could easily stop this.

And lastly, if this were used as a perimeter barrier, someone could bypass it by being under a cardboard box lined with tinfoil. Metal Gear's eternal cliche, for real.

That'd be my concern with this. That it can be negated with cheap, easily-available materials like metal sheeting, mylar, even tinfoil, and that OUR guys will get killed as a result of resourceful terrorists bypassing something our soldiers are told will stop them.

I think it's a big waste of money, and I hope none of our guys get killed as a result of believing that it's more effective than it is.

[seeker_two]

We order nukes all the time and we're not allowed to use them...

Yeah....but the Iraq thing would have ended a lot sooner if we did... 

Britain introduced unarmed police in the late 19th century, when everybody and his auntie had a gun in that country. It seems to have worked out for them better than what they have now.

...except 100+ years ago, there was such things as "civilization" and "manners" and "morality".....not so much in today's world of barbarians....excessive force is a far simpler and easier to communicate concept to barbarians....

[MechAg94]

100 years ago, didn't the people actually help the cops out?

Personally, while you can find articles and references to improper use of Tasers, I would like to see some statistics of how many times they are used and how many of those seem to be improper.  I would bet it is a small percentage.  In those few cases, would they have used a night stick or other means if they didn't have a Taser?

I think if we had used nukes in Iraq, I think it would lead to one of two outcomes:  1) we would still be fighting even worse or would have left due to casualties, or 2) it would be over and we would be spending 10 times as much money rebuilding and cleaning up. 

[ilbob]

Is it just me or is this slightly disturbing....?

As opposed to an M16 or a cluster bomb?

[ArfinGreebly]

I'll second the "domestic applications" anxiety.

Not worried about effects on hostile forces -- except, of course, possible complete ineffectiveness.

More worried that some bright spark might see this as the ideal tool to keep them "restless natives" in line at home.

I'm not a big fan of this kind of force disparity in the hands of some socialist visionary.

[Manedwolf]

I'm not a big fan of this kind of force disparity in the hands of some socialist visionary.

Note my note above about the microwave mesh coverall.

The things are cheap, and can be worn under loose clothing, the hood under a hoodie to be pulled up. If said "socialist visionaries" decided to use these post-disaster for crowd control, you could wear such when going out for supplies and at least be immune to the ouchies if things went south. Won't save you from a trample panic, but at least you could be protected from feeling like you'd been tossed in a french fry machine.

[MicroBalrog]

...except 100+ years ago, there was such things as "civilization" and "manners" and "morality".....not so much in today's world of barbarians....excessive force is a far simpler and easier to communicate concept to barbarians....

I'm not a barbarian, and neither are 99% of the population. For the remaining few there are SWAT teams, riot police, and armed citizens. And yes, nightsticks.

[Waitone]

I'll third the "domestic applications" anxiety.

I don't see much use in a place like Kabul or Baghdad.  I do see some use domestically when the Great PO'd hit the streets. 

[K Frame]

"except 100+ years ago, there was such things as "civilization" and "manners" and "morality""

Uhm...

Yeah.

Right.

Keep believing that if you must.

[RaspberrySurprise]

Something tells me the mesh would probably end up getting really hot after some time, and its attached to you. Though for short term protection it might do the trick.

[RevDisk]

It's nothing new...basically an unshielded radar (at least the emitter part).

Hrm.  Closer to an unshielded microwave oven.   Radar is pretty harmless unless it's something mounted on an AEGIS equipped cruiser or whatnot.  Microwave is not friendly to organic material, even at low strength.  I think bullets would be more humane, but I'm weird like that.

A swift bullet to the head of the operator and his/her CO should be manditory if used domestically,

And lastly, it is possible to block such a weapon cheaply, and also possible to reflect it at a target of your own choosing.  With a parabolic, it could be possible to reflect it back at lethal strength even if the transmitter was set to less lethal.