Author Topic: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?  (Read 10168 times)

Nitrogen

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2008, 09:48:42 PM »
That's about as ignorant as the original article.  Congratulations!

Thanks!

If you think it's admirable for citizens to never question their own beliefs or their government, then I'll take your call of being ignorant with a bit of pride.

I guess I didn't make my point clear.  People that are used to accepting ANY dogma without question make bad citizens, be it religious or government dogma.

Just like I'm sure there are plenty of Atheists that are good citizens, I'm sure there's plenty of religious folks that have no problem questioning dogma.  All I'm saying is that if you accept one set of dogma without question, whose to say you won't accept another set of dogma without question? 

The problem with atheists is the reverse of that coin, though.  If you don't believe in anything, who'se to say you won't fall for the first bit of good-sounding crap?
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2008, 09:55:34 PM »
Quote
The problem with atheists is the reverse of that coin, though.  If you don't believe in anything, who'se to say you won't fall for the first bit of good-sounding crap?

I certainly can't speak for all atheists, but can assure you this particular atheist believes in things, has values, lives up to them, et cetera.

It's awfully condescending of theists to assert atheists "don't believe in anything" simply because we believe in things other than theistic nonsense.
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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2008, 09:57:58 PM »
I certainly can't speak for all atheists, but can assure you this particular atheist believes in things, has values, lives up to them, et cetera.

It's awfully condescending of theists to assert atheists "don't believe in anything" simply because we believe in things other than theistic nonsense.

Would that be more or less condescending than implying theists are so easy for the .gov to brainwash because we've already naively accepted one set of dogma without thinking about it?
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Nitrogen

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2008, 10:37:31 PM »
Geez, I sure seem to have stepped in it.  Twice.

Let me try and explain one last time what I'm talking about before just accepting that I'm a donkey about the issue.

I guess the crux if what I'm trying to say is, people that don't think are bad citizens; be it if they are religious or atheists.

Two examples of the problem:
One's my aunt.  Hardcore atheist.  Believes in Homeopathy.  Is a 9-11 truther.  Believes that all diseases can be cured by chiropractors.  Obviously not a thinker.

Another example would be my ex girlfriends' mother.  Nightmare Christian; would probably make most people that call themselves Christian wince in pain.  Banned her daughter from dating me because I am Jewish and "killed her lord".  Got int an accident on the freeway when she stopped in the middle lane to pray because a "bad song came on the radio."

What I'm trying to say is, is that it's people that don't think that are bad citizens.  Plenty of good citizens are both religious and atheists, so long as they think for themselves, question authority, and come to their beliefs through some type of self discovery and introspection.

I am seriously not trying to say that ALL athiests will believe in anything they hear, nor that all religuous folks will never question anything.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2008, 01:07:38 AM »
It's awfully condescending of theists to assert atheists "don't believe in anything" simply because we believe in things other than theistic nonsense.

Wow again.

I just checked and, yes, you are the guy who just said that theists are stupid, and that atheists don't make fools of themselves by discussing religion.  Maybe get off the high horse? 

Please try not to be so glaringly wrong, offensive, simple-minded and pompous all in one thread.  It hurts my brain, and it makes your fellow no-religionists look bad. 

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Dntsycnt

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2008, 02:12:35 AM »
*whew*

For a minute I thought Jfruser went along with that crap.  My respect-O-meter nearly shorted out.

That being said, I can think of at least two atheists off the top of my head who I have met personally that are complete idiots that believe any number of ludicrous things, and are in general pretty worthless people.

Then there is my father, who is one of the most intelligent people I have ever met, more skeptical than I'll ever completely understand, and is still an ardent theist. 

Not exactly a scientific survey, but I think it's indicative of a good mixing of intelligence and morality across this one-issue border.  (One sprinkled with emotion land mines, as is apparent.)

Kyle

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2008, 02:48:45 AM »
You are a master of unintentional humor.

And you sir are a master of ad hominem wise-ass comments that don't address anything substantial.

I posit that one born, raised, and living in a culture that embraces a dogmatic faith-based belief system must have at least some critical thinking skills in order to reject that belief system.

And your rebuttal is what exactly, sir?

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2008, 03:17:44 AM »
So . . .

The actual issue seems to be, is morality a function of religious belief?

Is that the essence of the OP question, or is there more to it?

Not being a Paleoanthropologist, I can't pretend to have a firm grasp of the historical nuances and all, but it seems to me that survival of the tribe would have dictated the earliest morality.

Religion, in various forms, seems to have been a double-edged sword, on the one hand serving to provide a framework for codifying morality (laws, if you will), while on the other hand providing a means for a self-selected elite to exert power and authority -- that is control -- over a population.

An argument can be made, therefore, that morality predates religion.

On the gripping hand, however, there is the little issue of where life comes from in the first place, and the (for lack of a better word) native morality instilled by that source of life.

In which case, morality predates formal religion, but not the Creator.

Morality in the absence of a grasp of the Creator's role?  Possible.  In fact, I'd stipulate that it's baked in.

I would go as far as to postulate that morality is a native property of life engendered by a Creator, and that life really doesn't get to opt out.

Evil (again, lack of a better word) would be an acquired thing, overlaid on a native morality.

Thus whether a person BELIEVES in a creator, a different creator, no creator, or the impossibility of a creator . . . the native morality attribute cares not -- a little along of the lines of gravity not caring whether it's believed in -- and (acquired evil overlays notwithstanding) the person will exhibit moral behavior within the framework in which he finds himself.

So, from this synthesis (yes, I just made it up), I might conclude that Atheists can't help it.

They're pretty much stuck with morality as default, unless something else displaces it.

Yes, I do understand that the above is a very naive and shallow analysis.

Try not to take it too seriously.

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2008, 05:50:31 AM »
Now which Greek or Roman was it that said that the effects of religion were so good for society that if the gods didn't exist we would have to invent them? I've got the quote around here somewhere.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2008, 07:50:56 AM »
I posit that one born, raised, and living in a culture that embraces a dogmatic faith-based belief system must have at least some critical thinking skills in order to reject that belief system.


There are a number of very obvious rebuttals.  First, your position seems to beg the question by assuming that atheism is in fact the logical outcome of critical thought. 

In the culture you describe, a person is just as likely to become an atheist through simple contrarianism, or some emotional need to challenge authority.  Or, they might attempt to approach the question logically, but through a lack of critical thinking skills, arrive at a poorly-supported atheist conclusion.  (Even if atheism is in fact correct.)

But here in the modern Western world, where we do NOT embrace a dogmatic faith-based belief in religion, individuals may become atheists by uncritically accepting authority (parents, teachers, books, television).  Or they might be subject to peer pressure in certain circles that encourage atheism. 
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buzz_knox

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2008, 08:57:27 AM »
And you sir are a master of ad hominem wise-ass comments that don't address anything substantial.

I posit that one born, raised, and living in a culture that embraces a dogmatic faith-based belief system must have at least some critical thinking skills in order to reject that belief system.

And your rebuttal is what exactly, sir?

I think the rebuttal to that would be your own statement earlier:

Quote
But there are millions of people in this country that lack critical thinking skills. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a single atheist among them.

So no atheist has a lack of critical thinking skills?  Isn't that arguing the absurd as well as a bit of prejudice, which is itself proof of a failure of critical thinking skills?

The article doesn't do theists much good.  This thread doesn't do atheists much good either.  Both point to an arrogance and ignorant or willful misrepresentations of the other side.

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2008, 09:52:24 AM »
For a minute I thought Jfruser went along with that crap.  My respect-O-meter nearly shorted out.
Well, I was more interested in the thought process of the article author and some topics he raised than a "yes" or "no" answer.

Which is one reason I went to the trouble of posting the text in its entirety, rather than a drive-by link/post.

And you sir are a master of ad hominem wise-ass comments that don't address anything substantial.

I posit that one born, raised, and living in a culture that embraces a dogmatic faith-based belief system must have at least some critical thinking skills in order to reject that belief system.

And your rebuttal is what exactly, sir?

Sorry, the humor in your first post was rich and could be a bad parody written by a theist to discredit atheists.

fistful and buzz-knox have done good job of rebutting your premise both logically and empirically.








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roo_ster

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2008, 09:54:01 AM »
So . . .

The actual issue seems to be, is morality a function of religious belief?

Is that the essence of the OP question, or is there more to it?

I think that the article author believes something along these lines, though that is not his point in the article (which is more along the line of, "atheists do not have faith or allegiance in something outside themselves and such is a necessary but insufficient requirement to be a good citizen.")  Because, in the author's logic, good citizenship implies passing the culture/society on to following generations and atheists do not have the moral framework to explain why our particular culture is good to those that follow or defend it against its detractors.

I think that self-declared atheists can have a moral code (and be good citizens).  That comports with what I have experienced.  But, IMO, every "atheist good citizen" I have encountered has some faith that can not be supported by logic & reason alone.  That belief might be in the founding documents (a secular faith similar to Lincoln's before his presidency), the non-aggression principle, love of liberty for all, fair play, etc.  Barring some such faith, my answer in "No, they can not be a good citizen," as they lack the necessary moral sense that will, at times, place the well-being of others above one's own self-interest.

In a large society such as our own, logic, reason, and empiricism show that a purely amoral, self-interested outlook is the one most likely to result in the greatest material success/comfort for the individual.  Convicted criminals, those who most obviously display such an outlook, have (on average) below-mean intelligence.  IOW, they are not very good at what they do.  As a cop buddy of mine (of very high intelligence, himself) says, "We only catch the dumb crooks.  The intelligent ones rarely come to our notice beyond the effects of their crime on the rest of us."

The above-average intelligence, self-interested, and amoral person likely will never come to the notice of law enforcement.  The wicked do, indeed, prosper...if they are not idiots and can manage risk.  Our political class is full of such bright, amoral folk, though we must not think they are confined to politics.  Most of us have seen the smart, amoral climber who is smart enough to genuflect to those that can harm him, but merely uses and discards those who have not such authority.

Actions such as having children, giving a tithe, foregoing occupations or opportunities due to moral qualms will not maximize one's material success.  They indicate a sub-optimal course of action for the individual and can not be supported by reason or logic unburdened by faith or morality.

My worry, supported by what has occurred in W Europe, is that the faith such "good citizen" atheists have is not sustainable.  Such deracinated faith dies out and the question, "Why is our culture better than any other or worth preserving?" is no longer academic, but pandemic.  Such secular faith draws on the capital/tradition/etc. of more comprehensive faith, but does not produce enough to pass down to preserve and grow the culture. 
Regards,

roo_ster

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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2008, 01:47:11 PM »
 i'm really glad i got most my two cents in before this started going way downhill.

i will say that the quailties that make a good citizen stem more from how one was raised then any particular dogma one was raised with.
those who think about right and wrong and understand rules usually do better then those who just blindly follow. both atheist and religous folk fall in each catogory.
think about it, how many who support those who many of us despise because we believe they will want the populance to follow with what they think best are atheist? (yes i know that was a bit garbled, but i'm avoiding naming names)

i think a good citizen is someone who takes care of there own business and is respectful to those around him/her. its someone who is willing to help out on a personal level and follows the rules that make sense and fights through the proper channels those rules that are arbitrary or wrong.

so how about that? (if this manages to start a battle i'm just going to start bashing my head on the table)
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grampster

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2008, 02:08:35 PM »
It would seem to me that moralistic atheism could not exist unless there would have been some sort pre-existing theistic moral underpinning to be an example. 

My reasoning for this is that my observation is that one does not have to teach children bad behavior.  It seems they come by it naturally.  Conversely, children do need to be civilized and taught to be moral and ethical. So if there was not some pre-existing moral or ethical code anarchy would reign.  It seems to me that some sort of au priori belief in a supreme being or power, outside of self, needs to be present to have instilled the first imprint of a moral or ethical code.

One example would be that since ethics, morals, rightness and wrongness have been weakened rather than being promoted in public schools, we have seen a growing lack in ethics, morals and the grasp of rightness and wrongness in our youth.  However, as that youth becomes more independent and moves into adulthood, they pick up the desire for ethical and moral behavior because of the example of others, many, perhaps the majority of whom, are theistic. 

Just my simplistic two cents worth.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 03:14:49 PM by grampster »
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2008, 02:32:27 PM »
I posit that one born, raised, and living in a culture that embraces a dogmatic faith-based belief system must have at least some critical thinking skills in order to reject that belief system.

There are a number of very obvious rebuttals.  First, your position seems to beg the question by assuming that atheism is in fact the logical outcome of critical thought. 


I'm currently working my way (slowly -- sux having no free time) through the works of one C.S. Lewis.

Lewis, as is well known, was a self-proclaimed Atheist who set out to debunk God and Christianity (I'm probably over simplifying, but that's essentially how it started).

Lewis is a smart, rational man.  Friggin' genius, if you ask me.

What Lewis produced is some of the best reasoned explorations of morality and faith that I've ever seen.

When he was done, C.S. Lewis had become one of the staunchest advocates for the existence of God and the value of faith on record -- without once taking the path of "because I said so" dogma to make his point.

He's written a lot of stuff, all if it quite readable.

I'm not going to go all "appeal to authority" on you here, but a reading of anything he's written pretty much dispels the "critical thought leads to Atheism" argument.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 02:36:43 PM by ArfinGreebly »
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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2008, 02:37:08 PM »
What would be a good starting point of Mr. Lewis' work?

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2008, 02:41:18 PM »
Mere Christianity would be a good starting point.  Then I suppose I would follow it up with Christian Reflections.

PS:  On Ethics:  "Obviously it is moral codes that create questions of casuistry, just as the rules of chess create chess problems.  The man without a moral code, like the animal, is free from moral problems.  The man who has not learned to count is free from mathematical problems.  A man asleep is free from all problems..."
C.S. Lewis
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 02:47:23 PM by grampster »
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Balog

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2008, 02:50:15 PM »
What would be a good starting point of Mr. Lewis' work?

Mere Christianity, as mentioned. I'd also mention Lee Strobel as a fairly good logical resource. Have to look through my library when I get home, been too long since I was into apologetics.

I remember seeing a large book years ago that consisted of essays by subject matter experts in the various hard sciences about the logical defense of Creationism against very specific scientific objections. I tried to read it, but advanced biochemistry and astrophysics were a bit over my (14 y/o or so) head. Anyone know what it was?
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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2008, 03:10:32 PM »
Ok so let me get this straight.

The rebuttal is "atheists dont have critical thinking skills, most of them are just rebelling against their parents or something"?

That is just as childish as me saying "theists dont have critical thinking skills because they are just accepting what their parents taught them without thinking about it," which I would never say.

Two people can easily use some logic, and some critical thinking to arrive at two completely different conclusions.

As for the "here in the West our culture does not presuppose a belief system" argument, I don't even know where to start. If by "the west" you mean Europe, you would be right. Western Europe is the most secular region on the planet.

Here in the U.S., however, Christianity is presupposed. If you are white, black or hispanic, when you meet a new person, they dont ask you "are you a theist or an atheist?" They ask you "what church do you go to?"

Religion (especialy Christianity) is constantly reinforced in every spectrum of our society.

Or maybe you are one of those Christians who have this weird impression that religion is constantly under attack in America, when in fact it is the most solidly religious (and growing even moreso) country in the industrialized world. If you are one of those people, all I have to say is "oh please."

Maybe it has to do with my experience. I know a lot of atheists, and I do not know any who were raised by atheist parents.




RoadKingLarry

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2008, 03:19:19 PM »
Wow, there is some real narrow mindedness going on here...

As an atheist here is my take on it.
My "morality" is based in large part on self preservation. The society I live in for what ever reason has certain expectations or rules regarding proper behavior. I follow those rules in part to avoid getting in to trouble and potentially being subject to a loss of liberty. By following those rules I also am able to make a living for myself and my family (passing on of the genes). The basic core of my morality is "My right to swing my arms ends where your nose begins" I expect and demand the same consideration of those around me.
I won't attempt to force my will on another in part because I do not want someone else to attempt to force their will on me but I will resist such force if it is attempted, violently if needed. Anarchy is not conducive to peaceful living and successful child rearing (again passing on the genes).
I’m a veteran, I like our way of life in the USA and want to protect it. I believe it is the (for me) best way of life this world has to offer for me and my children. I did my part to help preserve it.
I don’t care what you do so long as it does not negatively affect me and mine. Once again I expect and require the same from those around me.
I don’t care what your religious beliefs are. They’re yours, feel free to keep them to yourself and I will keep mine to myself. Denigrate mine and you might expect for me to denigrate yours. But, I probably won’t because it just really doesn’t matter, unless you try to force your beliefs on me.
There are things I do that benefit society as a whole, civic organizations, charities and such. Those things help preserve society and help prevent anarchy.
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K Frame

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2008, 03:43:32 PM »
"and we do so, thank you kindly, without feeling obliged to pontificate on the topic of theism."

Oh really?

Ever hear of Madeline Murray O'Hair?

Lord knows that she NEVER pontificated on the topic of theism.  ;/

Get real.



"when you meet a new person, they dont ask you "are you a theist or an atheist?" They ask you "what church do you go to?"


Really?

I've met thousands of new people in my personal and professional lives over the years, ranging from small, rural towns to large urban areas, and I have NEVER been asked that question.
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Balog

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2008, 03:50:23 PM »
"and we do so, thank you kindly, without feeling obliged to pontificate on the topic of theism."

Oh really?

Ever hear of Madeline Murray O'Hair?

Lord knows that she NEVER pontificated on the topic of theism.  ;/

Get real.

Richard Dawkins anyone? I won't say that no theist has ever written a work proposing that raising a child without religious values is de facto abusive, but if they have it did not receive anywhere near the attention Dawkins has garnered.


Quote
"when you meet a new person, they dont ask you "are you a theist or an atheist?" They ask you "what church do you go to?"


Really?

I've met thousands of new people in my personal and professional lives over the years, ranging from small, rural towns to large urban areas, and I have NEVER been asked that question.


I've only been asked this at large religious conferences attented by a number of different churches.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2008, 04:00:16 PM »
i have been asked a few times by those who are very christian, 'what church do you go too?'

usually, the correct answer if you don't go to church is "i don't go to church."

i usually also find that those who ask that question are those who can't conseive of "normal" people not being christian.
and they tend to be very few and far between.
i find that atheist don't generally assume others are also atheist. mostly because atheist are in the minority. where as christians are pretty commen to come across.
which is why i don't get offended. 

now i have a question. how come anytime religion/atheism comes up, certain folks on here seem to be about ready to trade blows?
and as for the insults, errrr, BOTH sides of the argument has been trading them for some time.
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K Frame

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Re: Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2008, 04:01:14 PM »
"I've only been asked this at large religious conferences attented by a number of different churches."

Bingo.

It's a questions that is asked in logically appropriate situations, not as a general rule of thumb.

It's not unlike people attending a party and the men asking each other "what do you do/where do you work?"
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