Author Topic: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!  (Read 15393 times)

Nick1911

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2009, 12:27:23 PM »
Confirmed:
http://www.infocus.com/Support/Products/Projectors/IN24.aspx

Add another 150 watts for the dedicated computer that deals with turning and DVR functions, and another 50 watts for the stereo receiver, and we're up to 450 watts.

And I'm perfectly happy to buy that quantity of power to run this equipment.  Furthermore, the electric company is happy to sell me as much energy as I want to buy.  Yay, capitalism!

Firethorn

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2009, 01:24:20 PM »
Are you sure about that?  Is that based on measured powered draw, or rated power consumption on the back label of the monitor?

Measured power draw using a 'kill-a-watt' meter.

32" CRT vs 47" widescreen LCD.

The LCD wins while turned off - measuring 0 watts, while the CRT measured 3 watts.  Don't remember the 'turned on, moderate volume' levels.

I will note that both are/were energy star rated.  The CRT TV is rated to draw more power than the LCD.

The primary reason for buying the LCD was it was on special and the old TV wasn't capable of getting digital channels.

longeyes

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2009, 02:00:18 PM »
Maybe Californians can go green by not having the bigscreen on ten hours a day?  This isn't about technology or energy efficiency as much as it's about our obsession with the electronic syringe and vicarious living.
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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2009, 02:08:51 PM »
Kill-O-Watt meters are great, for either instantaneous or timed readings.   =D
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charby

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2009, 04:44:14 PM »
I'm just worried some jackass state rep or state senator will get this in a bill and passed in the '10 Iowa legislative session. Seems like lately they seem to copy all the feel good crap from the coast states.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2009, 04:44:56 PM »
the state of calafornia confuses me.

 
They already have customs stations to inspect for fruit, for some reason.

I say we set up customs stations in Oregon/Nevada/Arizona and just turn back any car with a CA plate.

and FERRETS. anyone that bans ferrets has bad mojo.

i don't get it. they're banning there own sterotype... eating fruit, with an oddball pet of a ferret and watching shows on their large tv..... sounds like they're gonna ban surfing and venice beach next.
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tyme

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2009, 05:24:47 PM »
Quote
The primary reason for buying the LCD was it was on special and the old TV wasn't capable of getting digital channels.

Oh, so that makes them hard to compare.  How much of the power draw goes to the LCD and how much goes to the HDTV tuner/decoder?
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Nick1911

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2009, 05:29:10 PM »
Oh, so that makes them hard to compare.  How much of the power draw goes to the LCD and how much goes to the HDTV tuner/decoder?

Is it relevant?  The California legislation doesn't seem to make a distinction between HDTV's and analog TV's.  ???

Firethorn

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2009, 06:11:45 PM »
Oh, so that makes them hard to compare.  How much of the power draw goes to the LCD and how much goes to the HDTV tuner/decoder?

That was one of the things I thought about, but given that there's no analogue channels anymore, the new TV is HD capable, etc...

The TV can do a lot more, but as I'd been taught to expect power savings, I checked. 

I wonder if the deal is that CRT tubes get more efficient the larger/lower resolution they are, so at monitor level sizes (<21") without speakers, but once you make it a TV, with tuner and speakers the gain isn't enough to outweight the additional stuff.

280plus

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2009, 07:22:46 PM »
Meh, I've got them by the short hairs. Big discussion elsewhere on ultra insulated houses and how they need very little to heat them and how nothing has yet been designed in the heating industry that produces such a low output and what are we going to do? Ever walk in front of an LCD screen TV? It feels WARM! The screen radiates HEAT! My solution? The LCD TV can be the heat source for the new ultra green, ultra insulated house. If you don't want to watch it just put it on some still shot or shots that it can cycle through. Art, family pics, whatever floats your boat. Take that you stupid Californians, you're missing the friggin boat!!   >:D
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BridgeRunner

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2009, 07:48:24 PM »
and FERRETS. anyone that bans ferrets has bad mojo.

And quaker parrots. 

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2009, 12:11:40 AM »
Quote
Ever walk in front of an LCD screen TV? It feels WARM! The screen radiates HEAT!

I don't believe that's a necessary byproduct, at least not in the amount that I've seen from some LCD TVs in my time.  And, given that some current production TV sets already meet California's proposed conditions while others don't I suspect that they aren't all as efficient as they could be.  There's room for improvement.

Case in point:  I'm typing this post up on a tiny little laptop with a battery that's laughable in size but the whole system can run off it for a good 8 hours.  Somebody put some time into making the LCD display on this bugger efficient.  I guarantee it.

TVs?  Not so much.  You just buy the panel and slap a bunch of hardware behind it that'll do the necessary TV and speaker mumbo-jumbo and call it a day.  First you make it work, then you make it cheap.  Efficiency doesn't come about in the design cycle unless somebody demands it and consumers aren't doing that right now.  California's just forcing them to address the issue before consumers do.

Now, I don't like it, and think it's a stupid thing for government to get involved in, but we're stuck with it.  TV companies will have to spend more time engineering their sets to be less than completely retarded with power consumption.

In the end we'll still have our LCD TV sets and they'll probably cost a few bucks more (I'm thinking $20-30 based on the crappy components I've heard of being used in my TV that blew the frick up) but we'll end up saving money in the long run on energy.

And I'm using the word "we" on purpose here.  I know it's a law that'll only apply for California but I can't see anybody going through the engineering phase and updating their manufacturing process just for California.  We'll all see the new models and they won't perform any worse the the crap we currently buy.

Brad Johnson

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2009, 12:29:51 AM »
of an LCD screen TV? It feels WARM! The screen radiates HEAT!

Plasmas are the same way.

Brad
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Firethorn

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2009, 08:11:14 AM »
Meh, I've got them by the short hairs. Big discussion elsewhere on ultra insulated houses and how they need very little to heat them and how nothing has yet been designed in the heating industry that produces such a low output and what are we going to do?

No small units?  How about the ones designed for trailors and such?  Maybe toss a load of bricks in the unit to act as thermal mass.

Quote
Ever walk in front of an LCD screen TV? It feels WARM! The screen radiates HEAT! My solution? The LCD TV can be the heat source for the new ultra green, ultra insulated house. If you don't want to watch it just put it on some still shot or shots that it can cycle through. Art, family pics, whatever floats your boat. Take that you stupid Californians, you're missing the friggin boat!!   >:D

You think LCDs radiate?  Try the plasmas sometime  especially the older ones.  You have this huge screen, but it's only a couple inches thick and still has to radiate all that heat out.

Back on old tech - CRTs had the advantage of a lot more volume to radiate through - remember the cooling grills on most TV's?

zahc

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2009, 10:26:21 AM »
Quote
I don't believe that's a necessary byproduct, at least not in the amount that I've seen from some LCD TVs in my time. 

Nevertheless, in cold climates, all of these "high efficiency" devices are at best pointless; at worst, counterproductive. All waste heat from an "inefficient" device simply goes to heating your house, which you are paying for anyway. It doesn't really matter if the heat comes from your TV, the electrical heating filament in your furnace, or the 50 incandescent bulbs in your house.

Of course the equation flops rather severely in warm climates where you pay double for every bit of waste heat.
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Firethorn

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2009, 10:48:41 AM »
Nevertheless, in cold climates, all of these "high efficiency" devices are at best pointless; at worst, counterproductive.

I'm in North Dakota.  High efficiency appliances still save me money half the year, and even during the winter, direct electricity heat is the most expensive.

Heat pumps, Natural gas, propane, wood, corn, are all cheaper when all you want is heat.

Quote
All waste heat from an "inefficient" device simply goes to heating your house, which you are paying for anyway. It doesn't really matter if the heat comes from your TV, the electrical heating filament in your furnace, or the 50 incandescent bulbs in your house.

In such cold areas heating with direct resistance heating is the *exception*, not the rule.  Heat pumps and hydrocarbon fuels are cheaper.

zahc

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2009, 10:50:09 AM »
I've always lived in apartments and they've always been electric. Even if your regular heating system is cheaper than electric, you can see that inefficiency becomes much less important in cold climates than in warm ones.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2009, 10:52:59 AM »
I'm in North Dakota.  High efficiency appliances still save me money half the year, and even during the winter, direct electricity heat is the most expensive.

Heat pumps, Natural gas, propane, wood, corn, are all cheaper when all you want is heat.

In such cold areas heating with direct resistance heating is the *exception*, not the rule.  Heat pumps and hydrocarbon fuels are cheaper.



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Ben

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2009, 10:56:43 AM »
Quote
I'm in North Dakota.  High efficiency appliances still save me money half the year, and even during the winter, direct electricity heat is the most expensive.

This is impossible. Al Gore just stated in a recent speech that the Earth's core is hotter than the sun. You should be having no problems staying warm without using TVs or other heating gadgets.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2009, 10:58:17 AM »
In such cold areas heating with direct resistance heating is the *exception*, not the rule.  Heat pumps and hydrocarbon fuels are cheaper.

A heat pump has mechanical things that must cycle, gasses to move, fans to run, and piping through which heat can migrate in/out.  Direct resistance heat has no loss to those ancilary systems.  The electricity is converted to heat which is directly transferred to the air being conditioned.  I just called an HVAC buddy of mine to check.  According to him resistance coil heat is as close to 100% efficient as an HVAC system can be.

Brad
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zahc

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2009, 11:13:27 AM »
It really depends on how you are calculating efficiency. Money efficiency, thermodynamic efficiency (are you including transmission and generation?), carbon efficiency, etc.

It's true that you can convert electricity into heat nearly perfectly--I get a good chuckle out of resistive space heaters that advertise "safe, efficient heat" (all resistive heaters are equally efficient)--but you have to generate electricity in the first place.
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zahc

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Firethorn

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2009, 11:43:45 AM »
A heat pump has mechanical things that must cycle, gasses to move, fans to run, and piping through which heat can migrate in/out.  Direct resistance heat has no loss to those ancilary systems.  The electricity is converted to heat which is directly transferred to the air being conditioned.  I just called an HVAC buddy of mine to check.  According to him resistance coil heat is as close to 100% efficient as an HVAC system can be.

 ??? A heat pump is basically a reversable air conditioner.  When working in heating mode, it's pulling in heat from outside to heat the house.  Common returns are 3-4 to 1.

1 BTU worth of electricity into a heat pump pulls 2-3 BTUs of heat into the house, plus the BTU of electricity used to operate the systems ends up as 'waste' heat, which is added in, giving you 3-4 units of actual heat.

Thus, heat pump 'efficiency' is actually higher than the 100% effective electric heaters.

As a home owner/renter, all you care about is how much it costs to keep your home's temperature within comfortable levels.  Heat pumps slaughter direct electric this way, but cost more.  Air exchange units(IE they dump/pull heat from outside air) don't work much below 0 F, so you need a backup.  In my area, that's normally propane.  NG is normally cheap enough you don't bother with a dual-fuel unit.  The occasional home's backup is direct electric, but that's trading installation expense for running expense.  In warmer areas where you might use the direct electric are only a few days a year, it's cheaper in the long run because electric resistance heaters are cheap and reliable.

I've always lived in apartments and they've always been electric. Even if your regular heating system is cheaper than electric, you can see that inefficiency becomes much less important in cold climates than in warm ones.

That's the trick:  Apartment.  By making the heating electric, they can push the bill off on you and the installation is cheap.  In my area when I lived in an apartment the heat was provided and they had a big NG furnace to keep the building warm.

As you move south the number of heating days, and the amount of heating needed drops, heat pumps make more sense because you actually want air conditioning, and once air conditioning makes sense for a substantial portion of the year, energy efficient appliances become smart purchases.  Me, I buy them because I don't have AC, and I don't want my appliances heating up the house any more than necessary in the summer.  That and they save me money all year, if not as much in the winter.

Gewehr98

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2009, 01:11:46 PM »
Quote
I've always lived in apartments and they've always been electric. Even if your regular heating system is cheaper than electric, you can see that inefficiency becomes much less important in cold climates than in warm ones.

It's actually a function of BTUs/dollar.

Direct electric up here in the Great White North hurts the pocketbook much more than natural gas.  Until the price of natural gas climbs to the point that electricity looks good, I'll stay with the former, thank you.  ;)
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MechAg94

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Re: California banning mentality continues....now large screen TVs!
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2009, 01:50:59 PM »
It's actually a function of BTUs/dollar.

Direct electric up here in the Great White North hurts the pocketbook much more than natural gas.  Until the price of natural gas climbs to the point that electricity looks good, I'll stay with the former, thank you.  ;)
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