Author Topic: DDWFTTW  (Read 12759 times)

ThinAirDesigns

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2010, 10:25:57 PM »
  It seems as if you're saying that even with no wind, if the cart were "given a push", even by hand, at enough speed the prop would start to spin as a result of the wheels turning, and continue to propel it even after the manual shove ended. 

No, we are definitely *not* saying that.   The Blackbird is truly wind powered.  If the wind stops blowing across the ground, it quickly rolls to a stop.  If you push it up to speed when the wind is not blowing across the ground, it quickly rolls to a stop.

JB

Doggy Daddy

  • Poobah
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,333
  • From the saner side of Las Vegas
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2010, 10:39:44 PM »
No, we are definitely *not* saying that. 
JB

Hence the use of the word "seems".  I was trying to illustrate just why I was having trouble believing DDWFTTW is possible.

DD
Would you exchange
a walk-on part in a war
for a lead role in a cage?
-P.F.

ThinAirDesigns

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2010, 10:59:46 PM »
Hence the use of the word "seems". 

Hence my statement to make it very clear that what it "seemed" to you we were saying, we were definitely not saying.

JB

Harold Tuttle

  • Professor Chromedome
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,069
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2010, 12:20:05 PM »
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,896
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2010, 03:37:20 PM »
Just dropped into this thread.

Weird autogyro effect?

Like when engines were shot out of bombers during WWII they'd have to feather the props or the "windmilling" prop would go much faster than design and throw blades if they could not feather them.

I really gotta think this one out.  I'm also reminded of Darrius rotor wind turbines which are "impossible" until you look at the vectors and constantly-changing angles of attack of the blades involved.  (Sorta like "tacking" into the wind with a sailboat, except as the rotors turn, they are kind of constantly "tacking.")

Kinda.

Sorta.

Maybe.

Verrrry interesting.

Darrius rotor:



On the other hand, maybe the "Law of the Conservation of Energy" was only a "Suggestion," and not really a "Law." :D


Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 04:35:46 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Harold Tuttle

  • Professor Chromedome
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,069
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

ThinAirDesigns

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2010, 05:13:27 PM »
On the other hand, maybe the "Law of the Conservation of Energy" was only a "Suggestion," and not really a "Law." :D

We are good, natural law abiding citizens.

JB

griz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,050
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2010, 09:34:12 PM »
Hello Thin Air and thanks for stopping by to explain.  Nice name by the way.

My question is about the "true wind" term.  I can understand wind speed relative to the ground or realitive to the vehicle, but I am not sure I understand what you mean by true wind.  Thanks in advance, Griz
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

ThinAirDesigns

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2010, 10:12:07 PM »
Hello Thin Air and thanks for stopping by to explain.  Nice name by the way.

My question is about the "true wind" term.  I can understand wind speed relative to the ground or realitive to the vehicle, but I am not sure I understand what you mean by true wind.  Thanks in advance, Griz

Hi Griz.

The term "true wind" is a sailing and aircraft term for the movement of air over the ground -- 'traditional' wind in other words.

JB

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,778
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2010, 10:49:25 PM »
From what you said about the tail wind turning the props, when you get faster than wind speed, is it still the wheels driving the prop or is the wind helping drive the prop also? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

ThinAirDesigns

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2010, 11:03:56 PM »
From what you said about the tail wind turning the props, when you get faster than wind speed, is it still the wheels driving the prop or is the wind helping drive the prop also? 

Mech, the wheels turn the prop at all times. 

Even though the relative headwind is moving in the right direction to spin the blades once above windspeed, the prop is being turned by the wheels too fast for that headwind to help out because the prop is pulling air in even faster.  The prop is doing what a prop always does -- it's sucking in air from the front, accelerating it relative to itself and blowing it out the back.

JB

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,976
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2010, 11:38:46 PM »
Quote
There's no conflict in my list of basics however -- my list was describing the Blackbird, the vehicle featured in the OP.  The Blackbird is configured as a downwind vehicle and as such the wheels always drive the rotor and it has no capabilities to move upwind.

ThinAirDesigns:

In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcgmpBGSCI&feature=related), the vehicle is pushed by a tail-wind until approximately 25-30mph, where we see the chase-truck with anenometer achieve a "head wind" due to its velocity rather than a tail wind.  This happens at 1:30 into the video.  The propeller acts as a sail that interfaces with a direct drive gear to turn the wheels.

After this point, the vehicle IS TRAVELING INTO A NET HEADWIND, and accelerating into it.  That is, by definition, moving upwind.

As such, the wheels are not driving the propeller.  Drag from rolling friction and aerodynamic friction would bring it to a stop, with a headwind.

However, that isn't the case.  It appears to continue to accelerate to at least 60mph, perhaps more.    This is because at some point prior to "zero wind" the gearing of the drive system and the pitch of the rotors was optimized to create thrust with the propeller, and the vehicle lacks weight and resistance to bring that thrust to a stasis point.  It runs away to the maximum attainable rotational speed, again determined by the friction of the propeller against the wind (this time a frontal braking against the flat surface of the rotor versus the thrust generated by the pitch of the rotor).

I am a bit surprised that the propeller, when faced with resistance from a net headwind, did not cause the entire vehicle to pull a "wheelie."  How much did you have to weight the nose to avoid that, or was that even a consideration?
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2010, 12:28:07 AM »
Mech, the wheels turn the prop at all times. 

Even though the relative headwind is moving in the right direction to spin the blades once above windspeed, the prop is being turned by the wheels too fast for that headwind to help out because the prop is pulling air in even faster.  The prop is doing what a prop always does -- it's sucking in air from the front, accelerating it relative to itself and blowing it out the back.

At which point, the wind is pushing against the thrust produced by the propeller, ja? I think that's the disconnect most people are having.

If my mental picture of this is correct, the wind isn't pushing against the vehicle, it's pushing against the thrust produced by the propeller being which is being turned by the wheels. While the vehicle as a whole may exceed the speed the wind over ground, the speed of the air being blown back by the propeller combined with the speed of the wind over ground still exceeds the vehicle's speed over ground, hence a net increase in energy is enjoyed until a balance is reached between energy loss from drag (vehicle aerodynamics, wheels against ground and the driving of the propeller) and energy gain from the wind.

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,896
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2010, 03:14:14 AM »
^I think what you're saying is that the propellor is kind of generating a larger surface area for the "true wind" to push against?

I'm still trying to noodle this one out in terms of props "windmilling," Darrius rotor dynamics, and the autogyro effect.  Maybe I'm on the wrong track.

"Fascinating, Captain."
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 03:19:52 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2010, 06:05:19 AM »
^I think what you're saying is that the propellor is kind of generating a larger surface area for the "true wind" to push against?

I'm still trying to noodle this one out in terms of props "windmilling," Darrius rotor dynamics, and the autogyro effect.  Maybe I'm on the wrong track.

"Fascinating, Captain."

Not really, the propeller isn't what the natural wind is directly pushing against, as the cart is traveling faster over ground than the wind is. I was saying it's the rear directed wind being produced by the propeller than the natural wind is pushing against, and it's through that that energy is imparted back through the propeller to the cart, greater than the energy expended by the carts forward motion driving the propeller. Am I making any sense here? It seems perfectly reasonable when I think about it.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,778
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2010, 07:19:30 AM »
That makes more sense to me than all this "true wind" stuff.  If you are traveling faster than the tail wind, then there is a head wind, not a tail wind at that point.  That is what I was trying to understand.  I'm sure there is a design difference in vehicles if you are starting from a stand still in a head wind, but once this cart gets moving faster than downwind speed, it is essentially moving into a head wind.  I can see the tail wind helping you get up to wind speed, but to get faster and move into a net head wind there has to be more happening there and the prop feeding off the head wind is the only energy source I see.   
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

griz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,050
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2010, 08:35:53 AM »
Maybe it could be described this way?  The wind pushes the car, that forward motion drives the wheels, and the wheels turn the prop, which is actually propelling the car at all times.  Although it may seem that you are getting something for nothing, there is much more energy in the wind than would be needed to push it "only" at wind speed.
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

ThinAirDesigns

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2010, 08:59:59 AM »
In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcgmpBGSCI&feature=related), the vehicle is pushed by a tail-wind until approximately 25-30mph, where we see the chase-truck with anenometer achieve a "head wind" due to its velocity rather than a tail wind.This happens at 1:30 into the video.  The propeller acts as a sail that interfaces with a direct drive gear to turn the wheels.

One small correction (that doesn't change your point).  The wind in that run was averaging about 18mph, not the 25-30mph that you state.  For safety reasons, we never ran the Blackbird in winds above 20mph.

Quote
After this point, the vehicle IS TRAVELING INTO A NET HEADWIND, and accelerating into it.  That is, by definition, moving upwind.

Your chosen definition of ‘moving upwind’ would be an uncommon one.  In absence of the term “relative”, the essentially universal definition of 'upwind' and 'downwind' relates to the *true wind* -- or the wind over the ground.  For all other applications the term "relative" is usually added.  

Example 1:  For obvious reasons, airplanes in proper flight *never* have a relative tailwind, but rather always have relative wind coming from the nose of the craft – they can’t fly otherwise.  This does not preclude them from flying downwind and pilots refer to this regularly as in "we'll be making good time on this flight because we’ll be flying downwind", or "we'll get to the gate early because we'll have a tailwind with us all the way".  

Example 2:  If the wind is blowing to the south at 30mph and I get in my car and head directly south at 60mph, I certainly have a *relative* headwind, but few will buy your argument that I’m no longer going downwind and am now “by definition, moving upwind”.  In common terms, having a relative headind doesn't mean I'm still not going downwind if I'm traveling in the direction of the true wind.

Quote
As such, the wheels are not driving the propeller.  Drag from rolling friction and aerodynamic friction would bring it to a stop, with a headwind.

As it turns out, you are simply wrong on this point – unless one slams the brakes on very quickly (slowing the vehicle faster than the spinning propeller wants to slow down), the wheels *always* drive the propeller and the propeller never once even *tries* to drive the wheels forwards.  Even if it wanted to at some point, there is a large ratchet installed on the prop shaft that precludes the prop from ever making that happen.  You’ll need to work on your understanding and theory in this case.

Quote
I am a bit surprised that the propeller, when faced with resistance from a net headwind, did not cause the entire vehicle to pull a "wheelie."  How much did you have to weight the nose to avoid that, or was that even a consideration?

Once again you’ve come to an incorrect conclusion.  As all speeds (including above wind speed), the entire load on the pylon structure is to the front – levering the front wheel *down*, not up.  The propeller is generating thrust to push the vehicle forwards and this thrust vector at the top of the pylon is pointed in the direction of travel.

JB

CNYCacher

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,438
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2010, 09:36:29 AM »
I am a bit surprised that the propeller, when faced with resistance from a net headwind, did not cause the entire vehicle to pull a "wheelie."  How much did you have to weight the nose to avoid that, or was that even a consideration?

Um, the propeller is pushing the vehicle. . .
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

Harold Tuttle

  • Professor Chromedome
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,069
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2010, 10:55:28 AM »
you need a blimp
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

ThinAirDesigns

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2010, 11:07:03 AM »
you need a blimp

What would a blimp do for us?

JB

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,976
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2010, 11:11:50 AM »
Quote
there is a large ratchet installed on the prop shaft

I was wondering if there was a clutch or ratchet involved in the drive between wheels and prop.

You've definitely created an interesting mental puzzle.

What would a blimp do for us?

JB

Harold's our resident mad scientist / jpeg masher.  There's more snark than bark in any of his confusing posts. =D
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Harold Tuttle

  • Professor Chromedome
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,069
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2010, 11:54:15 AM »
Well blimps are great for bombarding zombies

;)

But I was wondering what an uncoupling from the wheels would do to the effect
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

ThinAirDesigns

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2010, 12:01:54 PM »
But I was wondering what an uncoupling from the wheels would do to the effect

To harvest energy from the relative motion between to media (in this case, air and ground), one must be linked with both media.  If you uncouple the propeller from the wheels, you have broken this link and the device will fail it's intended purpose.

JB

BrokenPaw

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,674
  • Sedit qvi timvit ne non svccederet.
    • ShadowGrove Interpath Ministry
Re: DDWFTTW
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2010, 12:45:42 PM »
To harvest energy from the relative motion between to media (in this case, air and ground), one must be linked with both media.  If you uncouple the propeller from the wheels, you have broken this link and the device will fail it's intended purpose.

That means you could make a boat based on this principle, too; instead of wheels, it'd need an impeller that would be driven by the water, and which would turn the in-air prop.  It would be interesting to see how such a critter fared versus a more conventional sailboat.
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.