Author Topic: whats the nyra position on this?  (Read 11505 times)

wmenorr67

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2012, 06:16:01 AM »
Except that wouldn't apply to the Indian smoke shops. I'm not sure how that would work.

Should've said raise the age to use tobacco, not just buy.

Quote
If legislation passes, the legal smoking age could increase from 18 to 21 in the next three years. Some critics argue, a law of this sorts could hurt business for smoke shops in Oklahoma. Representative Ann Coody, from Lawton says she only want to save lives with this proposal.

http://www.newson6.com/story/16945906/oklahoma-lawmakers-look-to-raising-tobacco-age-limit
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2012, 08:22:33 AM »
Quote
Ann Coody, from Lawton says she only want to save lives

Well, hell let's just go ahead and outlaw it all together, think of the lives it would save.
Imagine the employment opportunities it would create for law enforcement. No knock raids for suspected possession of half a pack of Marlboros, mandatory 20 years for distribution of Camel unfiltered.
 :facepalm:

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Perd Hapley

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2012, 08:36:36 AM »
My parents never lifted a finger to "introduce" us to alcohol. It was something we encountered only rarely. Neither my sister nor I have had any issues with alcohol-related problems.

I guess my folks really messed us up good.
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vaskidmark

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 08:45:17 AM »
If you don't like what the law says, work to get it changed.

I agree that teaching children about alcohol use is important.  The laws in your area may be different than those where I live, which may account for some of the disagreement going on.  Here a parent can, within certain limitations, provide alcohol to their child.  Here there is no restriction on providing alcohol to minors as a part of a religious ceremony.  I have absolutely no problem with the fact that the laws here allow parental discretion regarding their own children and the use of alcohol and balance well with other laws that might be applied, such as the child abuse laws.  Wine during Mass or Passover Seder (even the Shabbot meal) is vastly different than hosting a keg party for your teen's entire graduating class - unless you are like the one group of parents I am aware of who were all in attendance in order to meet the law's requirements that only the parent of the minor can serve them alcohol.

Underage drinking usually (but not always, I readily admit) leads to intoxication.  Underage intoxication usually (but not always, I readily admit) leads to personal injury, property damage, and/or utilization of criminal justice assets (cops, courts, jails/detention centers).  I'd rather bitch about cops and judges not dealing with real crimes and real criminals than have to bitch about the underage drinkers who are causing me to pay taxes to support infrastructure devoted to the consequences of their behavior.  The costs of cleaning up the vomit and disposing of lost articles of clothing left behind by many underage drinkers must be covered somehow.  Insurance companies are not, to my knowledge, in the business of paying out on claims for damaged property or personal injuries without attempting to recover those expenses.  This is all most often accomplished by passing the increased costs along to the other consumers - of which I am one.

Turning back to the original issue - the series of articles - I am still confused about the motivation for exploring the matter let alone publishing the articles.  The problem exists and everyone seems to be aware of it.  The problem exists and a significant proportion of the population does not seem to care that it exists - even to the point of working to make it go away by revising the laws.  There is nothing new or unusual about the violations of underage drinking laws, just as there is nothing new or unusual about a significant proportion of the population not caring that those violations are taking place.  I am disappointed to learn that a community of supposedly conservative (as opposed to hippy/commie liberal) and libertarians seems to be saying that there is "no harm/no foul" in underage drinking as that is generally encountered in our society.  It's not so much hypocrisy as it is contradictory.  Or is it that my disappointment was confused for something more akin to absolute adherence to the letter of the law in spite of the moral flaws in the law?

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grampster

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 08:47:07 AM »
One needs to remember, or realize, laws are written for one purpose.  That is for the Common Good.

Unfortunately, some people believe that the Common Good is such that we should never be allowed to come out of our houses while police officers patrol the streets in order that we not be able to come out of our houses.  Further, that we be monitored in our houses so that bureaucrats could make sure we weren't doing anything that would be considered "bad".

Just one example of the Common Good going awry:  Drunk driving laws.  Auto deaths and injuries are caused in the high 90 percentile by those with a BAC of over .15.  Yet the federal limit for DD is BAC is .08, and impaired is around .05.  Average, normal, not drunk or dangerous people who are basically harmless at that low level have their lives virtually destroyed for a period of 5 or more years paying thousands of dollars to a system that was created to flog them.

 Part of that system is that LE officers no longer have the moral standard of actually observing a person commit a driving infraction in order to pull them over.  Presently, a lot of police officers haunt places that serve alcohol, or pull over lone vehicles late at night on trumped up non observations.  If you blow .05 or .08 you're finished.  Who would believe you that you had done nothing to be pulled over for other than making another notch on the Officer Friendly's DD stick?  

I'm not knocking police here.  I'm stating a fact that the system encourages this on the basis of the old notion of "It's for the children" or "if you're not drinking what do have to worry about."  I was in LE and know many who still are.  Police are human, at least most of them are, and are subject to bad behavior in the interest of the Common Good.  There is right and wrong.  But that line has been blurred by weak people who do not understand or care what the net result of that blurring will bring.

We need to demand laws that truly are for the Common Good, not just some new income producer or geared around a loud group of emotional cripples.

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wmenorr67

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2012, 09:12:40 AM »
In the mid 80's each state had their own standard for the age of consumption of alcohol.  Kansas was 18 for 3.2 beer and 21 for everything else, while Missouri was 21 for everything since they don't sell 3.2 beer in Missouri.  Then the big bad Federal Government came in and said to change all your ages to 21 or lose Federal Highway dollars.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

HankB

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2012, 01:21:26 PM »
. . . Just one example of the Common Good going awry:  Drunk driving laws.  Auto deaths and injuries are caused in the high 90 percentile by those with a BAC of over .15.  Yet the federal limit for DD is BAC is .08, and impaired is around .05.  Average, normal, not drunk or dangerous people who are basically harmless at that low level have their lives virtually destroyed for a period of 5 or more years paying thousands of dollars to a system that was created to flog them . . .
What do you think about Sunday "Blue Laws" in that context? Here in TX, grocery stores that sell wine or beer at, say 11:59 AM have committed a crime, even if the person is 21 or over. If they sell the same products to the same person two minutes - 120 seconds - later at 12:01 PM, it's completely legal.

How does 2 minutes impact "The Common Good?"
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2012, 02:34:57 PM »
Every single person uses their personal judgement all the time.

Even if you choose to implement a zero tolerance policy to the letter because you're going by the book, you're still making a moral choice and are still morally responsible for it.

Of course, I have personally experienced the sort of attitude I'm talking about.

A few years ago (why, ten) I was dating my girlfriend of that time , and we were drinking beer (we were pre-18, so it was illegal). We were quite obviously not 'adults', either. And of course we consumed our beer in an el-cheapo store/diner in front of a police station.

A police officer came in, got whatever he was coming to the store for, and walked back to his cruiser. He saw us clear as day and just smiled at us and didn't say a word. This is reasonable law enforcement.

Israel also has a fine for crossing the street inappropriately - automatic for those who have an outstanding warning for a previous infraction. As you can imagine, I do. I've once been stopped by a police officer, who said, basically: "I see that you have a warning from two years ago, it's here in the computer. You just be careful from now on. Let's just say I didn't see you."

This is reasonable law enforcement.

No, it is not.

It is blantent disregard for the law.

This is an issue of a bad law, not enforcement. Any law that cannot be enforced or will only be enforced when the LEO wants to is not a good law.
People think "hmmm, I can break that law and not get in trouble, so why not break this one, too?" and LEO can abuse it, "hey, I don't like this kid, so I'll bust him on this stupid law I normally don't enforce." Or "I can bust this kid, but I need/want whatever, so I'll make him give it too me so I won't bust him."

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wmenorr67

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2012, 03:04:12 PM »
How many times have you heard about underage drinkers being forced to dump all the booze out and not get in trouble, other being out money?
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

HankB

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2012, 04:18:38 PM »
How many times have you heard about underage drinkers being forced to dump all the booze out and not get in trouble, other being out money?
Hmmm . . . no more evidence, eh?  >:D
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2012, 04:29:16 PM »
How many times have you heard about underage drinkers being forced to dump all the booze out and not get in trouble, other being out money?

they made me do that to a 1/4 lb of bud once   i wanted to cry
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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grampster

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2012, 05:42:58 PM »
Ummmm, on a lighter note, I worked a special squad in plain clothes and using our own cars.  Mostly we worked violent crime against persons; armed robbery, purse snatching, occupied burglary etc.  On friday nights we'd patrol where the teen grassers happened and confiscated the beer with a warning to rat 'em out to parents if we caught 'em again. 
We did not pour it out on the ground. :P
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BridgeRunner

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2012, 11:58:06 PM »
If you don't like what the law says, work to get it changed.

I am. 

Difference is I'm doing it in a way that works.  Best way to get rid of stupid and evil laws is to change the culture that spawned them.  Best way to do that is through doing it, not begging to be allowed to do it.

freakazoid

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2012, 07:52:19 PM »
I am. 

Difference is I'm doing it in a way that works.  Best way to get rid of stupid and evil laws is to change the culture that spawned them.  Best way to do that is through doing it, not begging to be allowed to do it.

+1 I fully agree with this. I imagine we would still be under prohibition if not for all the people breaking the law.

Also, what is nyra?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2012, 08:27:11 PM »
+1 I fully agree with this. I imagine we would still be under prohibition if not for all the people breaking the law.

Also, what is nyra?
http://www.youthrights.org/       

It also appesrs to be a derogatory term for anyone who supports certain rights for children around here.
 ;/

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2012, 02:36:45 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MillCreek

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2012, 03:06:27 PM »
Alcohol and helium!  Now there is a combination I have never heard of. 
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roo_ster

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2012, 04:05:54 PM »
Alcohol and helium!  Now there is a combination I have never heard of. 

He was seeking spiritual uplift without the ethical baggage.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2012, 07:28:21 PM »
clearly any attempt to restrain her or her fellow seekers of enlightenment would be just another example of "the man" abusing our youth yet again.  vive le revolution!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 08:25:42 PM by cassandra and sara's daddy »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2012, 07:35:31 PM »
In the mid 80's each state had their own standard for the age of consumption of alcohol.  Kansas was 18 for 3.2 beer and 21 for everything else, while Missouri was 21 for everything since they don't sell 3.2 beer in Missouri.

When did they stop? I did Army Basic Training and AIT at Fort Leonard Wood, and we had 3.2 beer on the post. Was the post exempt from state law?
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freakazoid

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"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

MicroBalrog

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2012, 01:31:02 AM »
clearly any attempt to restrain her or her fellow seekers of enlightenment would be just another example of "the man" abusing our youth yet again.  vive le revolution!

I see your respect to the French language is second only to your respect of the Shift key.
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wmenorr67

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2012, 04:01:05 AM »
When did they stop? I did Army Basic Training and AIT at Fort Leonard Wood, and we had 3.2 beer on the post. Was the post exempt from state law?

Find that surprising because actually in Oklahoma I have to go on post to get anything other than 3.2 cold. 
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2012, 08:34:19 AM »
I see your respect to the French language is second only to your respect of the Shift key.

i see all you have is a snide whine about an e where an a should be

nothing more substantive?  to enlarge upon how we should empower the downtrodden youth?  so disappointing
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MicroBalrog

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Re: whats the nyra position on this?
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2012, 02:03:38 PM »
i see all you have is a snide whine about an e where an a should be

nothing more substantive?  to enlarge upon how we should empower the downtrodden youth?  so disappointing

I'm quite sure in your advanced you understand how irrelevant that link is to the argument.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner