What to do with the nice little goth kiddies?

[CAnnoneer]

How about you have a sitdown with the 15yo and tell her that killing herself is her business, but her influence on your 11yo is something she should take responsibility for? Maybe this approach will help both.

[wingnutx]

Net-Nanny type software is fairly cheap. Combined with putting the PC in an open area you will have that base covered.

[BrokenPaw]

Net-nanny software is...problematical; it's anyone's bet whether the sites that SoftwareCompany's committee thinks is objectionable are the same sites that Mom&Dad thing are objectionable.  Witness the number of people who can't reach TFL or THR because of nannybots.

Proximate parenting is a better solution.

And I like CAnnoneer's idea of having a look-what-your-asinine-behaviour-is-doing chat with the 15-year-old.  But go through the parents first.  I once got my arse chewed on prodigiously for correcting someone else's kid in my home, because (notwithstanding the fact that he was being unsafe) I have "no right" to correct someone else's kid.  Or something.

-BP

[wingnutx]

I'd have a very matter-of-fact "look what your idiot cousin is doing to herself" conversation with the 11 year old, too.

If she's just aping her look then I wouldn't be too bent out of shape about it.

Just keep talking to her and being a firm parent.

And enjoy it before she turns into an evil teenaged girl.

I'd definitely block myspace-type pages at that age.

[Mannlicher]

Bogie, its a personal thing, as to how this will be handled.  Frankly, I view all 'goths's as freaks and weirdos.  I pretty much worked daily with my kids, as to what I felt was ok, or not ok.  Seems to have worked, as my kids are reaching upper and mid thirties with no problems.
There are parents that will say that you just can't control, or influence your children.  Bunk.  Thats a lazy parent talking.

[wingnutx]

I wouldn't be that threatened by black frilly dresses, bad dance music, and Edgar Allen Poe.

[roo_ster]

Back to the point at hand... How the heck can I keep an eye on her (one computer in the house, by the way) to make sure she's not getting fed bad craziness?
 
Gonna try to keep her away from her cousin, but that's gonna be hard since the whole damn family is VERY close...

1. Computer is in open area (living room, kitchen, whatever)
2. Bite the bullet and go buy:
         1) New LCD monitor
         2) Wall-mount for LCD monitor
         3) Powered video splitter cable to get the video signal to existing and new LCD monitor
3. Mount the LCD monitor above the computer table so all can see
4. Some sort of net nanny software is fine, but make sure you also get a software firewall that you can configure to log all incoming packets & the sites they come from.  Spend 15 min/day seeing just where the little gal is going.  Block objectionable sites.
5. Administrator access for ADULTS only.  Kiddos get user accounts.  Disregard whining when they can't install every bit of crap/mal/spy-ware disguised as video games.

Kids have no business accessing a networked PC by themselves.  In your case, it seems your GF's daughter is looking for trouble.  Well, sometime trouble looks for them, too.

As to the cousin, I would do my best to keep them from hanging out together.  Your GF has to be on the same page of music.

[wingnutx]

All the ones I've known were big into Poe, Mary Shelly, Bram Stoker, and all the other newer spooky stuff. JD Salinger seemed popular. It's a very literate subculture.

Then again, they were longtimers that had found their niche, not just looking like a goofball for a few months until something else caught their attention.

Like most goofy subcultures, they get mislabelled a lot. Any jackass who wear black clothes while doing wrong is touted as "goth" in the news, just like every redneck with a buzzcut is a "skinhead" and every "biker" is a thug. Those idiots who shot up Columbine were just idiots who happened to own trenchcoats, but it's a better news angle if you have a group to lump them in with.

[CAnnoneer]

Neogothics - more evidence of the degeneration and pathlessness of western culture, as brought about by indulgence in leftist-liberal, socialist, self-hating, multiculturalist, decadent rubbish.

[Bogie]

Well, she seems to be more into some boy bands with bad haircuts (and hey, I survived the eighties...). It's like culture shock to me... "Look how cute he is..." and then "And he has a pierced tongue!"
 
Yeech.

[Guest]

All the ones I've known were big into Poe, Mary Shelly, Bram Stoker, and all the other newer spooky stuff. JD Salinger seemed popular. It's a very literate subculture.

Those are older-type original Goths. The people who got into it to be different. Now we have a whole set of "new" goths, who like the look, but they do it to fit in with a peer group, not to stand out from one. The new Goths are all the superficial things that we associate with the original goths, but none of the deeper nuance (like knowing how to read, and being smarter than the Jocks).

For a simple test: take one of these newer goths and ask them to list their favorite bands, I bet that more than half of them will be top-40.

What you have here is a depressed little teeny-bopper who likes to get attention by wearing a pile a makeup, black clothes, and "attempting suicide" (there is no such thing as failing at suicide three times in a row, its a cry for mommy and daddy to notice). She will *not* be a good infuence on your child because her personality type is more self-centered than you can possibly imagine. In other words, her list of priorities includes her name in big bold letters and little, if anything, else.

[...has left the building.]

I actually like goth people. I don't think that the "gothness" is the problem, she has serious mental issues that need to be addressed in a serious manner. I listen to very dark music and still talk to many people on the goth scene. One goth chick told me that she is just like a normal girl with a better record collection. Amen to that. Dark music is generally therapeutic moreso than detrimental.

Attack the underlying issues instead of the symptoms. And until she gets help and shows real improvment, keep her away from her younger cousin!

[wingnutx]

c_yeager: every group ends up with teenybopper wannabees that try it out for a while. Some of them hang on and eventually quit being poseurs

[Strings]

>3) Openly ridicule and expose the fake lifestyle.<

If you want some help with this, try this lil' volume: What is Goth? by Voltaire

 Although written by a goth musician, it's incredibly hilarious: the guy makes his living poking fun at his own sub-culture...

[wingnutx]

the guy makes his living poking fun at his own sub-culture...

Jhonen Vasquez does a great job of it, too. He's the creator of the great Invader Zim cartoon, plus a zillion or so clever comic books.

[Lee]

Sometimes I wonder how people can repeatedly take wrong turns and then wonder why they are lost (In general - not meaning you Bogie).  Raising a kid starts at 1 day...not at 10, 12, or 15 years.  I always try to be honest with my kids.  To the chagrin of some of their friends (and parents of those friends), I tell my kids exactly what I like and don't like about other people.  After seeing that I'm right 99% of the time, they now respect my opinion.  I would have a serious talk with your daughter about mental health and depression. Explain to her that good people can have serious issues that prevent them from making good decisions, and that they need the help and support of family and medical professionals to beat the illness.  Explain to her that by emulating her cousin, she is not helping the girl to get better, and that she needs to set a good example for her older cousin. Kids are very loyal to their peers...especially older peers.  Your daughter needs to be made aware that SHE could be the person with power in this situation. It's a rare situation for tweens....she'll eat it up.

[Ex-MA Hole]

Am I correct to assume that you are more concerned about your 11 year old daughter?

My kid is almost 2, so I AM NOT TALKING FROM EXPERIENCE, merely speculating...

Have you asked the 11 year old what she thinks?  Is it possible that she looks up to here because (as you say) the family is so close?  Maybe she thinks she is supposed to, and thinks the 15 year old is a fruit cake, but is afraid to say it?

Just a thought.  Also, based on what I read/ scanned, the 11 year old has done nothing to cast a doubt as to the whole "trust" issue.  Watching her internet usuage via a largew srcrean monitor seems to be a bit extreme to me.  In my mind, when my little one is old enough, software will be setup pronto.  Not as a trust issue, but as a parenting issue.

Seems to me that some here think that the 11 year old is already in a world of hurt?  Did I mis-read something, or is she looking up to the people that you introduced her to as a close family?

IMO, you may want to start by talking to the 11 year old?

[Ex-MA Hole]

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you go and pull the computer watching, etc as suggested, maybe the 11 year old will think she has done something wrong?  In reality, based on what I read, she has not.  Why make her guilty of something that she hasn't done yet?

To me to stop trusting her, or to give the preception that you a watching her every move, for doing something you had her do, may cause her to exhibit the behaviors that you are trying to stop.

Think of it her way- she is being punushed for something that she hasn't done- then why be good?  You already don't trust her.

[Bogie]

About the only thing "wrong" she's done is get on the computer and surf the goth chat sites after being told not to... So it's gonna be a locked computer for a while.

[Mr_Dove]

There's nothing wrong with "Goth" really.  All the goth people that I know are well adjusted, intelligent, creative people.  I don't think that there's anything wrong with trying to be different as long as its done in a healthy way.  For some people Goth is only about the fashion and looking different from others.  Nothing wrong with that.

[Preacherman]

Mr Dove, there's EVERYTHING wrong with the Goth lifestyle.  If any child of mine showed so much as a hint of getting involved in it, he/she would be disciplined (including physically, if necessary) in every way possible to stamp out so negative and blighted a tendency.  If he/she were too old for such discipline, they'd be given a stark choice:  snap out of it, or leave home and be barred from contact with their siblings.  I won't have such nonsense infesting my home or influencing others.

The documented record of personality problems, drug involvement, cultish behavior, and other negatives surrounding the Goth scene is so vast that there's no longer any doubt about it's negative influence.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The documented record of personality problems, drug involvement, cultish behavior, and other negatives surrounding the Goth scene is so vast that there's no longer any doubt about it's negative influence.

Have any sources to back this up? 

My experience with goths is that they're no different from the average teenager, except in dress, music, and literature tastes.  Some of the goths I hung out with as a teenager were into drugs, but then so were many of the non-goths, too.  None of them had personality problems (over and above the usual teenage issues.)  In fact, the goths tended to be extremely toleant and accepting of eveyone, in a way that's almost uncanny amongst the cliquish and meanspirited highschool landscape.

Overall, I'd say the goths I knew were a higher grade of people than the average at my high school - that's why I spent time with them, despite being as un-goth myself as it's possible to be.

[Sindawe]

The documented record of personality problems, drug involvement, cultish behavior, and other negatives surrounding the Goth scene is so vast that there's no longer any doubt about it's negative influence.

Hmmm... Sounds like what was said of the Heavy Metal culture 20 some years. 

[wingnutx]

None of them had personality problems (over and above the usual teenage issues.) 

They're just a little more dramatic about it, sitting in the dark writing bad poetry while their mascara runs down their cheeks 

[Preacherman]

Have any sources to back this up?

Quite a few, actually.  For one of the latest and most 'interesting' (frightening?) articles, see:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/bmj.38790.495544.7Cv1

It's from the British Medical Journal, which I think is fairly authoritative.  Do a Google search on the negative effects of Goth culture to find many more . . .