Looking for some handgun guidance

[230RN]

Somebody mentioned the "Kahr  P9," which reminded me of the Kel-Tek PF9. I had one and I could not get that thing to feed three rounds.  I sent it back, they claimed they fixed it, and it still stopped at two rounds.  I started to call it my two-round gun with a handy compartment to hold four extra rounds.  Got my money back from the seller and he claims he had no problems with it.  Subsequent research indicates that Kel-Tek had two barrels for it with differing feed ramps.

My J-Frame is a Smith 442-2 "AIRWEIGHT" and as I said, it disappears in my khakis without a holster. It seems the cylinder breaks up the outline enough to make it look, as I said, like a pocketful of junk.  Yeah, bitch to me about not using a holster and I'll bitch right back to you about using a holster.

I also had the titanium/scandium version of this revolver (called the "AIRLIGHT," I believe) with identical mechanics (with one exception) to my Airweight.

This Mofo kicked so bad it was esentially unsuitable for defense except with light .38s.  I could not fire 158 grain standards with it and sold it.  The thing was so light when you picked it up, your hand, expecting a little heft, would go upward a surprising amount.  It felt like an empty plastic water pistol.  The mechanical exception was a tiny steel plate in the frame above the cylinder gap to eliminate gas cutting of the exotic metal frame.

In fact, this gun caused the origin of my expression "if the gun were as light as the bullet, it would be just as dangerous on the back end."  Ike Newton said that with slightly different wording.  Good old Ike.

My Kahr CW9 is great all around, but in$tead of firing 200 round$ for reliability, I keep a full-house hollowpoint in the chamber and ball rounds in the magazines.  It does print like mad in a pocket.  I put a laser sight on it, like with all my defensive sidearms.

Terry, 230RN

ETA I noticed most pics of the Airlight (with the atomic symbol) do not show that protective little steel insert,  but I finall found one that does:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/5212/904827148/wm_7422694.jpg

It's obvious as hell in the actual gun, but a little hard to see in most pics.

[T.O.M.]

I know my original post talked about capacity, but there's more to it than capacity.  Seems to me that most of these autos have sights that are easier to see than my 649, not to mention a possible optic. 

Honestly, I'll probably keep carrying my 649 to the store and such.  Got some Cabelas bucks and birthday money giving me the itch for a new toy. Might just as well make it something useful.

[RocketMan]

Dogmush offered some good advice about sticking with known good brands and choosing something from one of them.  You should find a range that offers rentals, and rent a few of the handguns we've mentioned.  Make an afternoon of it.  Have fun.  Find one that's comfortable in your hand, shoots well for you, and doesn't break the bank. 

[RoadKingLarry]

Gold plated, fully engraved Desert Eagle in .50 AE.

[T.O.M.]

Gold plated, fully engraved Desert Eagle in .50 AE.

WINNER!!!

[HeroHog]

For concealability my old Kel-Tek P3AT .380 Was great! Carried it in the pocket of my jeans and it looked like a pocket knife!




My Kel-Tek P-11 was a good double stack that shared mags with my S&W Model 59 and my Kel-Kek SUB2000.
With the mag extension i could just fit 3 fingers on it. With the standard S&W Mod 59 mags, it was just right.

[HankB]

. . .  I also had the titanium/scandium version of this revolver (called the "AIRLIGHT," I believe) with identical mechanics (with one exception) to my Airweight.

This Mofo kicked so bad it was esentially unsuitable for defense except with light .38s.  I could not fire 158 grain standards with it and sold it.  . . .

I have an S&W 340 Sc as my "always" gun - scandium frame, titanium cylinder five shot .357 Mag.  I normally carry it with 145 grain Winchester silvertip JHPs. I put Crimson Trace grips on it which cover the backstrap with a layer of rubber - that way it's merely unpleasant to shoot rather than actually painful. At least for the first five rounds.

[K Frame]

" Seems to me that most of these autos have sights that are easier to see than my 649, not to mention a possible optic.  "

So the truth comes out. You're getting old.

GEDOFFAYEROWNLAWNYAPUNKASSOLDFART!

[MechAg94]

The P365 comes with a high visibility green front sight.  Works for me.  It is the first upgrade I do for pistols if they don't come standard.   I can do without red dots, but a good front sight improves my shooting a lot.


I had a Kahr P9 years ago.  It was mostly reliable.  Where it seemed to give me pause was when chambering a round from a full mag.  It would hang up a lot for some reason.  Once a round was in the chamber, I don't remember it ever having an issue while shooting.  Also, parts of the slide were polymer and would get stuck if you pulled the slide back too hard.  I sold the gun a while back, but it did the job for me for a while. 

[230RN]

I have an S&W 340 Sc as my "always" gun - scandium frame, titanium cylinder five shot .357 Mag.  I normally carry it with 145 grain Winchester silvertip JHPs. I put Crimson Trace grips on it which cover the backstrap with a layer of rubber - that way it's merely unpleasant to shoot rather than actually painful. At least for the first five rounds.

Son1 fired it with full-house .357s and said it was like getting hit with a ball pein hammer. That alerted me to start with lighter loads and go up.  I had to stop at 158 grain standard .38s and came to the conclusion that it was totally unsuitable for defensive uses, and "if the gun were as light as the bullets, it would be just as dangerous on the back end."

I was also a little concerned with day-to-day regular usage damage to the finish on those exotic materials.  It wasn't like you could just drop it off at your local smith for a re-blue job. 

...

I guess some people have trouble with the Kel-Tek PF9, some don't.  I even tried "embiggening" the grip on it with a section of bicycle inner tube on the grip and that didn't work either. I have read other accounts of its unreliability.  I suspect that it was  so small and the recoil so great that  the combination exaggerated tiny faulty design choices in some hands and not others. Problem solved by getting my money back on it.

This was one of the beauties of "back then" when you didn't have to go through a dealer for this kind of transfer.  Remember those days?  How soon we forget !

Terry, 230RN

[lee n. field]

My Kahr CW9 is great all around, but in$tead of firing 200 round$ for reliability, I keep a full-house hollowpoint in the chamber and ball rounds in the magazines.  It does print like mad in a pocket.  I put a laser sight on it, like with all my defensive sidearms.

The Kahrs strke me as being having super tight tolerances. 

My CM9 I think the prior owner had probably done all the breakin on it, because everything feeds.  The CM40, I don't think its previous owner had shot very much at all.  (And surprisingly, it doesn't totally suck to shoot .40 through.) 

Some guns, the 9 and .40 versions are just a barrel & slide swap different, and they'll take the same magazines.  Not so with the Kahrs.  Designed around that cartridge, stuff doesn't swap.

Son1 fired it with full-house .357s and said it was like getting hit with a ball peen hammer. That alerted me to start with lighter loads and go up.  I had to stop at 158 grain standard .38s and came to the conclusion that it was totally unsuitable for defensive uses, and "if the gun were as light as the bullets, it would be just as dangerous on the back end."

Mostly with the snubbies I'm carrying my steel Taurus now.  I can shoot that for fun.

[Perd Hapley]

This was one of the beauties of "back then" when you didn't have to go through a dealer for this kind of transfer.  Remember those days?  How soon we forget !

If you mean private sales w/o a background check, I think that's legal in most of the country.

[RoadKingLarry]

I guess some people have trouble with the Kel-Tek PF9, some don't.

Many years ago a friend of mine brought a friend of his (with prior permission) to my range with his new Kel-Tek PF9 so he could learn to shoot it.
The guy couldn't get through a magazine with out at least a couple of jams, this was with 3 different mags. My friend and I were both able to shoot it with out it missing a beat. Never could figure out what he was doing wrong. we worked with him on grip and stance and how tight to hold it, nothing worked. If one of us shot it, flawless, if he shot it, jam-o-matic. I think he took it back and traded it in on a revolver.

[MechAg94]

I suspect he would do better with something that had a full size grip. 

That said, I had a PF-9 that I got rid of.  I offered it to my Dad for free and he declined.  The small grip and the way the trigger worked just made it uncomfortable/awkward to shoot IMO. 

[HankB]

. . . If one of us shot it, flawless, if he shot it, jam-o-matic . . .

Some guns are sensitive to how they're held - which IMHO is a design flaw that too many gun writers try to excuse by a contemptuous "limp wrist" comment. (What if you've already been injured? Maybe you're still in the fight, but CAN'T hold it perfectly?)

My Gen 1 Glock 17 is reliable in my hands, but when I gave it to my petite, elderly mother to shoot - it jammed. I found out I could make it malfunction on demand by holding it loosely. My Gen 3 Glock 26 has no such problem, nor does my BHP or Beretta 92 Elite. And I recently got an S&W M&P 2.0 compact - 4" barrel - and in the first several hundred rounds of mixed ammo, even when holding it deliberately with a bent wrist and loose "two finger" grip, function has been perfect. (So far!)

[dogmush]

Some guns are sensitive to how they're held - which IMHO is a design flaw that too many gun writers try to excuse by a contemptuous "limp wrist" comment. (What if you've already been injured? Maybe you're still in the fight, but CAN'T hold it perfectly?)

Agreed.  Unless it's a range toy, you can't always expect to be gripping a combat handgun perfectly.  Your hands could be bloody and slippery, you may be one handed, off handed, or both, You may be holding a person with the other hand, you may just be in a hurry, trying to get that first shot on target before they do and your grip suffers.  The gun needs to work relieably in these situations, not just in a firm grip on a firing line.


Interesting trivia I got from my Grounded and Wounded class:  The most common non-fatal injury seen in pistol-pistol gun fights is being shot in the hand.  Generally speaking if you both have a pistol you are putting both your pistols out in front of your eyes, right in the other guy's sightline. It is reasonably common for police to win a gunfight by making shots with a finger or two blown off by the bad guy's first shot.  That'll compromise your grip, I suspect.

[cordex]

Interesting trivia I got from my Grounded and Wounded class:  The most common non-fatal injury seen in pistol-pistol gun fights is being shot in the hand.  Generally speaking if you both have a pistol you are putting both your pistols out in front of your eyes, right in the other guy's sightline. It is reasonably common for police to win a gunfight by making shots with a finger or two blown off by the bad guy's first shot.  That'll compromise your grip, I suspect.

Doing force on force I've seen (and felt) this a bunch too.  Sims to knuckles can really smart, but I can't imagine what a bullet would do.

[MechAg94]

What comes to mind is you often shoot where you are looking.  When someone is pointing a gun at you, you are probably looking at their gun not at them.  Plus, it is held out forward between you and the other guy.

Which is another reason to practice off hand shooting and perhaps one-handed reloads or other alternate scenarios.  Doesn't take a lot of ammo, just do it a few times.

[RoadKingLarry]

Doing force on force I've seen (and felt) this a bunch too.  Sims to knuckles can really smart, but I can't imagine what a bullet would do.

WLJ to the white courtesy phone please.

[dogmush]

Continuing the thread drift:

In addition to single hand and weak hand training, it's important (IMO) to occasionally practice with compromised grip and compromised mobility.  In the class we also took it a step and practiced shooting with [mild] pain stimulus.

So compromise the grip:  Tape some or all of your fingers together, tape your strong hand thumb down, tape an object into the palm of your shooting hand (we used tennis balls).  Can you draw and get shots on target.

One handed malfs and reloads:  How do you do it without flagging yourself.  Can you holster, reload in the holster, and draw?  How do you get the gun out of your holster, safely, with our off hand?

Pain Stim:  This one was both fun and a doozy.  Instructor handcuffed bowling pins to us and we had to engage with a couple pounds swinging around and digging into our wrist bones.  MFer hurt.
https://i.imgur.com/LKvXvk7.mp4

These are all like 5% skills.  You don't need to train on them all the time, but once or twice a year  break them out and spend 25-50 rds on them so you don't have to figure it out in a gunfight.  From experience, all of these are exponentially more difficult to do with a sub-compact pistol.  You'll note I was running my 19x in the class so I could concetrate on technique.  I've since done it with my P365XL, and my main take away was I might want to carry a bigger gun.   

[Ben]

One handed malfs and reloads:  How do you do it without flagging yourself.  Can you holster, reload in the holster, and draw?  How do you get the gun out of your holster, safely, with our off hand?

I reckon that's one in the "pro" column for an optic. I can pretty consistently one hand rack a slide with an optic on it, but I've not mastered it on a bare slide. It's also a case for the "EZ rack" slides that seem to constantly be advertised for women and the elderly. On the one extreme, I'm a fairly strong guy, but the springs on my Delta Elite make it impossible for me to one hand rack that thing.

[dogmush]

It's also a plus for AIWB carry.  You can put the gun back in the holster, reload/strip a mag/whatever, and get it back out safely with either hand pretty easily.  Much more difficult to do that offhand with the holster behind your hip.

[Bogie]

I normally carry a Glock 43 in a pocket holster in my right side front pocket. The spare mag is in the left pocket. The S&W 642 .38 is in a vest pocket, in a holster. I usually walk around with hands in vest pockets.

[dogmush]

^^^

You might be better served selling one of those to fund some Level III concealable armor.  Seriously.

[Bogie]

I recently switched stores from the South Kingshighway one to one in the close-suburbs...
 
Frankly, at the South Kingshighway one, I was more worried about one of my cow orkers pissing someone off to the extent that they came back to shoot the place up than about getting robbed...
 
That kid: "I have to park my truck in front, in the handicapped spot just in front of the door, so that I don't get my tires slashed again."
 
Antagonistic, authoritarian, aggressive, assertive, and they wouldn't let me fire him.