Author Topic: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance  (Read 11878 times)

MicroBalrog

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"Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« on: October 12, 2008, 01:59:49 PM »
"Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance (12-10-2008)     

Yesterday, the first worldwide protests against surveillance measures such as the collection of all telecommunications data, the surveillance of air travellers and the biometric registration of citizens were held under the motto "Freedom not Fear - Stop the surveillance mania!". In at least 15 countries[1] citizens demanded a cutback on surveillance, a moratorium on new surveillance powers and an independent evaluation of existing surveillance powers. "A free and open society cannot exist without unconditionally private spaces and communications", explains an international memorandum.[2]

In Berlin the greatest protest march against surveillance in Germany's history took place: Participants in the 2 km long, peaceful protest march carried signs reading "You are Germany, you are a suspect", "No Stasi 2.0 - Constitution applicable here", "Fear of Freedom?" and "Glass citizens, brittle democracy". Apart from related music tracks, loud chants of "Belittle it today, be under surveillance tomorrow" or "We are here and we are loud because they are stealing our data" could be heard. During the protests, which were supported by more than 100 civil liberties groups, professional associations, unions, political parties and other organisations,[3] artists played parodies on surveillance society.

In their final speeches in front of the Brandenburg Gate, the organisers called for political consequences: padeluun of civil liberties group FoeBuD said that in view of the mass protests politicians needed to react now and repeal the blanket retention of all telecommunications data introduced in 2006. Patrick Breyer of Arbeitskreis Vorratsdatenspeicherung presented a five point plan according to which surveillance should be reduced, existing laws should be evaluated and plans for new surveillance measures should be halted. In the course of a "new, freedom-loving security policy" specific preventive measures such as youth projects should be invested in and the "real problems" of people such as poverty and education should be focused on. Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes of Arbeitskreis Vorratsdatenspeicherung announced further action and invited participants to join parties held in seven participating clubs in Berlin under the motto "The long night of surveillance".

In other countries, the following events took place in the course of yesterday's "Freedom not Fear day": Protest event with music and several art performances in Den Haag, lectures in Rome, surveillance camera mapping in Madrid, art performances in front of Parliament in Vienna, protest rallies in Paris, Prague, Sofia and Stockholm, the distribution of privacy software in Kopenhagen, informative events in Guatemala City and Buenos Aires as well as a light projection onto Toronto's Town Hall. In London, the construction of a surveillance state was protested by creating a massive collage of photos on Parliament Square showing the prime minister and the action day's motto "Freedom not Fear".[4]

Before the action day, Arbeitskreis Vorratsdatenspeicherung had warned of a "surveillance avalanche in Germany": According to the group, the German parliament has tightened surveillance and control over citizens at least 21 times in the past 10 years. At least 18 more surveillance proposals are presently on the political agenda, for example the blanket collection of air traveller's data and the transfer of personal data to the US.

About Arbeitskreis Vorratsdatenspeicherung:

Arbeitskreis Vorratsdatenspeicherung ("German Working Group on Data Retention") is a German association of civil rights and privacy activists as well as regular Internet users that runs a campaign against the complete logging of all telecommunications. Home page: http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de

MicroBalrog Sez: Reason this is relevant? Well, at least one APS member I know is there. :D
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Manedwolf

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 02:03:34 PM »
No mention of attendance numbers, I notice.

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 02:13:36 PM »
No mention of attendance numbers, I notice.

That's because it's not over. However, given it stretched for 2 kilometers, I'd say there were plenty of people.

Last year's protest they had had 15,000 people. Quite impressive.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2008, 02:19:58 PM »
I'm sure the police kept very close tabs on the participants.
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2swap

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2008, 03:20:34 PM »
No mention of attendance numbers, I notice.

Golem.de said 50'000 protesters were in Berlin, the official numbers by the police say there were 15'000 and the Arbeitskreis Vorratsdatenspeicherung said there were 100'000 (some people say this was exaggerated, but it was really crowded). The police is always using the latest possible moments to check, so it's expected that they get lower numbers.

Thanks, MicroBalrog for informing others about this  =)

I'm sure the police kept very close tabs on the participants.

We still have some remainders of the Grundgesetz in this nation and after the supreme court has confirmed the right to 'informationelle Selbstbestimmung' multiple times, they are very limited in what they can do.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 03:28:29 PM by 2swap »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2008, 06:03:29 PM »
Stuff like this is why I never take pictures or film important events like weddings.  Why should I do it, when George W. is doin' it for me? 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2008, 06:32:17 PM »
Stuff like this is why I never take pictures or film important events like weddings.  Why should I do it, when George W. is doin' it for me? 

So your argument is that because the intrusions into our privacy are not yet total, they're too unimportant to protest about?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2008, 07:23:35 PM »
Wow.  You found an argument in there?   :O
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Gewehr98

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2008, 07:33:18 PM »
Quote
Wow.  You found an argument in there?

Yup.  That's our boy.  He's good like that.  ;)
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2swap

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2008, 07:34:10 PM »
Wow.  You found an argument in there?   :O
I am still recovering from lack of sleep (11 hours to get to Berlin, 17 hours to get back, the only time I got to sleep on the train, I missed my stop and woke up half an hour late), so I might misparse it a bit. Whom did you direct this humour at? The 'terrorist' screaming politicians, who pass the laws or the 'conspiracy' screaming weirdos you find at protests again them?

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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2008, 07:35:08 PM »
I am still recovering from lack of sleep (11 hours to get to Berlin, 17 hours to get back, the only time I got to sleep on the train, I missed my stop and woke up half an hour late), so I might misparse it a bit. Whom did you direct this humour at? The 'terrorist' screaming politicians, who pass the laws or the 'conspiracy' screaming weirdos you find at protests again them?



This is not healthy. Get back into bed, please, darling. =) =)
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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2swap

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 07:38:37 PM »
This is not healthy. Get back into bed, please, darling. =) =)
I tried to sleep more, but after 7 hours of sleep when I returned home, I just couldn't anymore, even though I am tired.  =(
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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 07:43:10 PM »
I tried to sleep more, but after 7 hours of sleep when I returned home, I just couldn't anymore, even though I am tired.  =(

In that case go get a slice of coffee.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 07:47:55 PM »
2swap,

It's just a joke.  If I understood this particular issue well enough to take a side, I would do so.  But I'm going to wait a bit, until I am better informed, before I shoot my mouth off.  I have taken that attitude about a number of issues.  The rest I just blather on about, with the utmost ignorance.  ;)
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2swap

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 07:59:31 PM »
2swap,

It's just a joke.  If I understood this particular issue well enough to take a side, I would do so.  But I'm going to wait a bit, until I am better informed, before I shoot my mouth off.  I have taken that attitude about a number of issues.  The rest I just blather on about, with the utmost ignorance.  ;)
I think Americans are at a disadvantage of being for our causes since their language lack terms like informationelle Selbstbestimmung and Datenschutz, but I would have thought that APS are for privacy, against government using high tech to spy on its citizens, against storing 'connection information' on every call and web site access, against the police using trojans against private PCs...
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2008, 08:18:30 PM »
I think Americans are at a disadvantage of being for our causes since their language lack terms like informationelle Selbstbestimmung and Datenschutz, but I would have thought that APS are for privacy, against government using high tech to spy on its citizens, against storing 'connection information' on every call and web site access, against the police using trojans against private PCs...

In general your thoughts are correct.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2008, 08:28:43 PM »
Quote
but I would have thought that APS are for privacy, against government using high tech to spy on its citizens, against storing 'connection information' on every call and web site access, against the police using trojans against private PCs...

This APSite is 100% against that stuff.

Perd Hapley

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2008, 11:46:50 PM »
I think Americans are at a disadvantage of being for our causes since their language lack terms like informationelle Selbstbestimmung and Datenschutz, but I would have thought that APS are for privacy, against government using high tech to spy on its citizens, against storing 'connection information' on every call and web site access, against the police using trojans against private PCs...

APS has no doctrine or creed, other than a belief in the individual right to keep and bear arms.  And we even have at least one guy here who doesn't believe in that.

I, personally, am for privacy.  But that is only a platitude.  As I thought I made clear, it is the details I haven't studied yet.  Hence my reluctance to agree with any one side or another.  But if you feel sufficiently informed on the issue, have at. 
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roo_ster

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2008, 06:22:26 AM »
"Arbeitskreis Vorratsdatenspeicherung"

I pity your children learning their native language.  It seems there are no small new words in German, just agglomerations of older words describing new concepts.



[I was going to insert an attempt at tasteless topical humor, but decided otherwise.  If you can evoke a mild belly-laugh on your own along with a moderate feeling of violated societal norms (you'd never openly express for fear of being thought a square), I'll call it good.]



17 hours to get home?  I didn't think it took 17 hours to get anywhere in Germany.  Uncontested, that is.  Did you finally wake up in, say, Lisbon and realize you had overslept?



As far as the issue in the OP, I guess I am half on board.  I am big on national/state constitutional prohibitions on domestic surveillance being liberally interpreted and powers granted to the gov't being conservatively interpreted.

I have no problem with my gov't giving the big hairy eyeball to suspect foreigners/non-citizens, especially outside the bounds of the USA.  That is a legitimate constitutional function, at least in the COTUS.

I am very leery of international agreements and such. 
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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2008, 06:32:23 AM »
Quote
I pity your children learning their native language.  It seems there are no small new words in German, just agglomerations of older words describing new concepts.

With God willing, Junior's 'native' language will be English. I don't think we'll have the patience to teach him all the languages we know between us - though of course we'll try.
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seeker_two

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2008, 04:43:45 PM »
This APSite is 100% against that stuff.

Actually, we're 100% against being 100% against stuff unless we all agree to be against stuff....and you should remember that shootinstudent is a member here, too...
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2008, 04:50:37 PM »
Actually I was only speaking for myself, not shootinstudent or anyone else, which is why I said THIS APS-ite. (APSer, APSian, etc.)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 05:21:01 PM by dasmi »

2swap

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2008, 06:15:36 PM »
"Arbeitskreis Vorratsdatenspeicherung"

I pity your children learning their native language.  It seems there are no small new words in German, just agglomerations of older words describing new concepts.
I actually prefer this to the phrasal verbs and noun adjuncts of English. If I see new concepts in English, I never know where one ends and where the next one starts. It's IMNSCO easier to get the meaning from the German 'one word - one concept' approach.

17 hours to get home?  I didn't think it took 17 hours to get anywhere in Germany.  Uncontested, that is.  Did you finally wake up in, say, Lisbon and realize you had overslept?
you are forgetting 3 things:
1st) I am a student (ie: broke) and thus took the slower trains (RegionalExpress and S-Bahn). I paid less for the travel in both directions that way than I would have with the InterCity or InterCity Express one way (70€ vs. more than 80€).
2nd) I returned at night between Saturday and Sunday and during the night, less trains are scheduled
3rd) I returned partially on a Sunday, which means reduced train traffic

I had to wait more than 6 hours in Braunschweig for the train. I hoped to be able to sleep there, but some FUBAR youths were constantly loud and annoying. I did fall asleep in one train though and woke up in Düsseldorf instead of Hamm. That was not that much of an issue since there are trains to Cologne from there. (the intended route was Berlin->Magdeburg->Braunschweig->Minden->Hamm->Cologne Central Station->my stop, the route I took was: Berlin->Magdeburg->Braunschweig->Minden->Düsseldorf->Cologne*->the place I need to go to. It was only half an hour more)

As far as the issue in the OP, I guess I am half on board.  I am big on national/state constitutional prohibitions on domestic surveillance being liberally interpreted and powers granted to the gov't being conservatively interpreted.

I have no problem with my gov't giving the big hairy eyeball to suspect foreigners/non-citizens, especially outside the bounds of the USA.  That is a legitimate constitutional function, at least in the COTUS.

I am very leery of international agreements and such. 
Also immigrants have dignity and should be subject of 'innocent until proven guilty'. And what is Germany decided that for its security, it needs to spy on you...
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roo_ster

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2008, 11:11:09 AM »
Also immigrants have dignity and should be subject of 'innocent until proven guilty'.
Here we differ. 

Non-citizens in another country ought to be under more scrutiny.  They have no right to be there and are there by the leave of the host country.  The host country ought to be able to eject them on any or no pretext.  Allowing non-citizens in a host country is a privilege, not a right.  It is also subject to the desires and interests of the citizens of the host country.  IOW, immigration and travel into a country ought to be done for the benefit of the citizenry, not the non-citizens.  That non-citizens also benefit (in many instances) ought to be incidental to policy.

I do not truck with this "citizen of the world" hooey.  Most of the world is a cesspool of thuggery and oppression and I want no part of it personally and I don't wish to import any thuggery or oppression into the USA.


And what is Germany decided that for its security, it needs to spy on you...
I, personally, have no power to stop them from trying.  I have to rely on the gov't of the USA for cover. 

They are welcome to have a go at it, if they are willing to live with the consequences of being caught by the US gov't. 

Thing is, that is one reason we have gov't: to protect us from hostile foreign govts.  Says so right in the COTUS.

I have no illusions about the relations between govt's.  "There are no permanent allies, only permanent interests," a wise man once wrote. 

I am glad the US gov't is more cognizant of commercial/industrial espionage, these days, relative to past decades.

FWIW, I have been approached by agents* of foreign gov'ts in the past.  I am cordial & non-committal, try to recall as much as possible (both of hte encounter and counter-intel briefings), and report it to counter-intel (when I was in the military) or my company's info sec** folks (now that I am a civvie).




* In the most generic meaning of the term, not necessarily a credentialed officer of a foreign gov't that I could confirm.

** I keep agitating for my company to get serious about legal intel gathering for our benefit.  The only folks who listen to me are former green-suiters like myself and there are not enough of us in mgt to make it a priority.
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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Freedom not Fear": Worldwide protests against surveillance
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2008, 11:14:31 AM »
Quote
Non-citizens in another country ought to be under more scrutiny. 

And while that is true, I still think it's fair to say that LEGAL immigrants retain most of their rights, because rights, as we all know on this forum, do not emerge from government action, but from the inherent (some would say god-given) dignity of each man.

Illegal immigrants should be put on a truck back to their home nation.
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