Post by: Brad Johnson on January 04, 2007, 10:40:57 AM
I know, I know... for everyone like me there's a hundred people who think that you have to fill the screen with the picture or somehow you are being "cheated" out of part of the programming. Heck, my parents don't even like watching a widescreen movie with me. They think that part of the picture has been cut off. No amount of explanation will convince them that the pan & scan versions they buy are actually the vids with mission picture info.
Just had to vent a bit. I watched a Foster Brooks bit on YouTube and it was set to the wrong aspect ratio, making everything look artificially bloated. Too bad, too. It was a good bit (the same one I linked to APS a few weeks ago).
Brad
Post by: zahc on January 04, 2007, 10:44:12 AM
Post by: brimic on January 04, 2007, 04:13:36 PM
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 04, 2007, 09:43:25 PM
Post by: TarpleyG on January 05, 2007, 03:49:28 AM
I need to watch everything in its proper aspect ratio- my wife insists on the screen being filled. We sometimes get on eachother's nerves over this one.
My BIL and I have the same size set (different manufacturers though) and the same cable provider. He absolutely insists on having all the 4:3 stuff fill the screen. I hate it. My FIL is always asking why so-and-so looks so fat. "For the 1000th time....."--he'll never get it.Greg
Post by: CatsDieNow on January 05, 2007, 06:15:43 AM
Post by: Paddy on January 05, 2007, 07:23:03 AM
?
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 05, 2007, 07:33:32 AM
I don't get aspect ratios either. What good is my 42" widescreen plasma tv if I have to look at black bars on the top & bottom? OTH, if I fill the screen (with "partial zoom"), then stuff is cut off at the bottom.
?
?Aspect ratios can be boiled down to two formats widescreen (sometimes called 16:9) and standard 4:3. The numbers represent the ratio between screen width and height. A standard TV is 4 units wide and 3 units tall. Widescreen 16:9 units are 16 units wide and 9 units tall. A standard screen pic, being slightly more square, will be shown on a widescreen with bars at the sides (square pic on a rectangular screen). To show a widescreen movie or program on a standard set, the pic will have bars at the top and bottom (wide pic on a square screen).
If you have bars at the top and bottom of a widescreen TV then the aspect ratio is set to 4:3 (standard TV) on either your DVD player or your cable/satellite box (whichever is producing the distorted pic). Give us a little more info and we'll get you "squared" away.
Here, Wiki has a pretty good entry on it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_%28image%29
Brad
Post by: zahc on January 05, 2007, 08:54:24 AM
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 05, 2007, 09:13:48 AM
One of the 4:3 aspect ratio settings completely fills the screen, no black bars, and no zoom. (I can zoom in for a couple additional settings)
When switching back and forth between the full-screen 4:3 setting and the 16:9 setting, I don't see a lot of difference in the vertical squashing effect. What am I missing?
Also, I haven't really seen any HDTV images yet, partially I suppose because of my cable box. When plugging in my Stevie Ray Vaughan Austin City Limits concert DVD, I don't see an appreciable difference in picture resolution.
So that begs the question, are all DVDs recorded in higher resolution, or is there some marking that lets me know I'm in for a treat or not?
Post by: zahc on January 05, 2007, 09:17:00 AM
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 05, 2007, 10:25:49 AM
Playing with this new Hitachi 42" plasma today...
One of the 4:3 aspect ratio settings completely fills the screen, no black bars, and no zoom. (I can zoom in for a couple additional settings)
When switching back and forth between the full-screen 4:3 setting and the 16:9 setting, I don't see a lot of difference in the vertical squashing effect. What am I missing?
Also, I haven't really seen any HDTV images yet, partially I suppose because of my cable box. When plugging in my Stevie Ray Vaughan Austin City Limits concert DVD, I don't see an appreciable difference in picture resolution.
So that begs the question, are all DVDs recorded in higher resolution, or is there some marking that lets me know I'm in for a treat or not?
One of the 4:3 aspect ratio settings completely fills the screen, no black bars, and no zoom. (I can zoom in for a couple additional settings)
When switching back and forth between the full-screen 4:3 setting and the 16:9 setting, I don't see a lot of difference in the vertical squashing effect. What am I missing?
Also, I haven't really seen any HDTV images yet, partially I suppose because of my cable box. When plugging in my Stevie Ray Vaughan Austin City Limits concert DVD, I don't see an appreciable difference in picture resolution.
So that begs the question, are all DVDs recorded in higher resolution, or is there some marking that lets me know I'm in for a treat or not?
Like zahc said, DVD's are not high def. The only true high-def images are from the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD units playing HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs. Your cable signal isn't high-def either, that is unless you have the high-def programming package. If I recall, DVD's are 525 lines of horizontal resolutoin (old TV images were 400, again, if memory serves). Standard def DVDs will be noticeably better on high-def sets, but over an old-style TV that could only display 400 lines.
Some TV's, and I think HItachi is one, have a resolution upconverter that will take a standard-def signal and upconvert it to high-def for use by the TV. It doesn't increase the picture to an actual high-def quality, but it does ensure that you are seeing the most pristine image possible from your standard-def source. The latest generation of DVDs, especially those digitally filmed or encoded directly from a digital source (like Pixar's stuff), will benefit the most from this upconversion.
If one of the 4:3 settings fills the screen with no zoom then the TV is morphing the 4:3 signal to fill your 16:9 screen (stretching it). At that setting you should see some distortion of the picture (everone looks strangly bloated or "wide"). If you see no difference between the two settings in terms of distorted picture, then the TV is zooming enough to fill the screen but the effect may just not be as noticeable on that particular program.
The real key is to have your cable box, DVD, and any other video sources set to properly encode the signal to your 16:9 television (and these are actually pretty critical). Once those settings are correct, any other adjustments that need to be made can be accomplished by thumbing through the aspect ratio settings on the TV.
Also, make sure you are using the best possible connection between the video sources and the TV. At the very least you should be using the base band outputs (video, audio right, audio left). If your sources have the capabilty of going comonent (I think they are labeled Y, Pa, and Pb), by all means use them. If your DVD player is labeled "Progressive Scan" it will have these type outputs. Just be sure to use cables shielded for video. Cables shielded for audio can allow signal interference from other RF sources and cause some image issues. Audio signals tend to be less prone to interference so they may not be fully shielded (cost savings). The cables don't have to be high-zoot mega-dollar stuff, just make sure it says "video" and appears to be a decent build quality with heavy insulating jacket and metal ends with good strain reliefs. Count on paying at least $10-$12 per cable for something decent, or $25 or so for a combo Y/Pa/Pb cable (where all three conductors are video shielded).
Brad
Post by: Vodka7 on January 05, 2007, 10:52:51 AM
Quote
If your sources have the capabilty of going comonent (I think they are labeled Y, Pa, and Pb), by all means use them.
One little addendum to that:
I used to work at a cable company, and you would not *believe* the number of people who made the following two mistakes:
1) Only plugging in the RGB (properly called composite, but half the time I get that confused with component so I just call them by the colors now) cables and wondering why they had no sound. The RGB cables are just video--you still need the old school red and white cables (RCA/component) going into the sound inputs on your TV too (and if you have multiple inputs, make sure RGB is Video1 and RCA is Audio1)
2) Plugging in all five cables, but switching the two red ones. For some reason, no one in any of the companies designing this format realized that there was already a red cable used for something else. Like Brad said, usually the RGB cables are shielded, so they will look and feel a little beefier than the audio cables. Put the beefy red one in the video slot, and the skinny red one in the audio slot. Otherwise you're going to hear nasty buzzy sound any time you get a scene with a lot of red on the TV (I have to admit I made this mistake myself the first time I plugged in my Xbox 360.)
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 05, 2007, 10:59:23 AM
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(I have to admit I made this mistake myself the first time I plugged in my Xbox 360.)
Hate to say it, but so did I when I bought my new system and first progressive scan player a couple years ago.
Brad
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 05, 2007, 11:56:14 AM
Did a little digging on the Hitachi web site. Found this among the feature descriptions of their TV's
Quote
4:3 Expanded Mode for All TV Signals
An exclusive technique is employed to fill the widescreen with conventional 4:3 programming while minimizing perceptible distortion.
An exclusive technique is employed to fill the widescreen with conventional 4:3 programming while minimizing perceptible distortion.
Looks like that's probably the reason you aren't seeing much of a change in the pic when dialing through the 4:3 mode settings.
You still need to check all your components - DVD, cable box, etc. - and make sure the TV output is set to 16:9.
Brad
Post by: brimic on January 05, 2007, 04:41:47 PM
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Also, I haven't really seen any HDTV images yet, partially I suppose because of my cable box.
If you have Charter and your set has a built in HD tuner, try flipping through the channels far beyond where the last one comes in. I have Charter extended basic service which goes up to about channel 78 in my area. My wife was palying around with the remote awhile back and found that the broadcast stations were something like 103-105 and PBS has 2 HD channels in that neighborhood also. When you get HD programming on your plasma, you'll know it immediatly- it looks so real that its freaky.
Post by: MechAg94 on January 05, 2007, 05:10:44 PM
Post by: caseydog on January 05, 2007, 08:21:07 PM
What the hell ? Standard def channels have so much stretching and smooshing going on , hows about you guys broadcast what your source is created in and let me decide if I want my TV to stretch it with it's internal scaler !!Gewehr, there are so many variables it can make your temples thump when you first start exploring it , plus now everything is in a state of flux . If your DVD has component outs , by all means get the cables and use them , much better picture , remember to go into the players setup and set it for "progressive" and 16:9 screen. For broadcast , if you have a cable box the same idea applies , use component if available or even HDMI when you get an HD cable box , in the interim you can usually hook up the cable straight from the wall to the TV and get some free over the cable HD ( if your set has a QAM tuner) or depending where you are maybe a small antenna may be an option (if your locals have stepped up to hi-def.)
Cables: http://www.monoprice.com
Forum: http://www.avsforum.com
Ray
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 06, 2007, 12:49:31 PM
Quote
the cable here has 1 hi def channel that is still pillarboxed What the hell ?
That means the channel may be broadcasting in hi-def, but the program you are seeing probably originated in standard def (4:3). Hey, at least they are pillarboxing it instead of morphing it to fit the screen!
Brad
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 06, 2007, 04:25:56 PM
I have the Hitachi 42HDS69 (I *wish* I could have bought the 55HDS69!), and am running everything through a Philips prioritized auto-switching box for now, so I can play DVD/VCR/Charter Digital Cable box/Linksys MP3 player without switching imputs, using the old yellow/red/white RCA cables. It also allows me to record things with my ancient (pre-chip) MCS Hi-Fi VCR, and pipe audio through my Yamaha DSP 1000 Dolby Digital Sound Field Processor, and then out to a 4 channel Yamaha Power Amp, and two more channels in the front end through my vacuum tube Jolida 502A and out to my monster ESS/Heil Air Motion Transformers. All the interconnects are premium low-oxygen copper units, better, cheaper, and not so silly as Monster Cable's hype.
The array of inputs and outputs on the back and side of the Hitachi is simply bewildering. My stepsons were the first to exclaim that they were going to plug in their X-Box 360. I laid out a couple ground rules right then and there.
Heck, it's all new to me compared to the 32" Sony Trinitron it replaced. Day/Night settings? Locks? Channel Manager? I can order a card that replaces the Charter box?
Reading the manual, it appears the only way I can feed HDTV content into the Hitachi is either the HDMI or Y/Pa/Pb cable, none of which are on my Charter Digital Cable box, so I'll be making a call, subscribing, and trading boxes with them to take advantage of the set's capabilities.
The 4:3 aspect I've been watching is called "4:3 Expanded" by Hitachi, but I notice less people squashing (ala' Phantasm?) than the 16:9 setting.
Something that surprised me was watching a DVD the other night, "V - For Vendetta", and it was letterboxed, the only way to get it to fill the screen on the top and bottom was zooming in, which clipped right and left edges. So we left it letterboxed, I didn't know if it was something my Zenith DVD player could adjust or not, or simply a function of the recorded program content.
Post by: caseydog on January 06, 2007, 05:21:08 PM
Quote
My stepsons were the first to exclaim that they were going to plug in their X-Box 360. I laid out a couple ground rules right then and there.
With a new plasma panel *if* they do play the games you should back down the brightness and contrast significantly , especially for the first 200 hours or so until the panel is "broken in" . Avoid leaving static images on the screen like game or DVD menus for extended periods. Gaming will show you some image retention on plasmas , usually for 15 - 30 minutes , that is pretty much normal and not considered a harm to the panel.
Quote
Day/Night settings?
just some preset brightness/contrast settings. Also note that the inputs all retain specific user settings , for instance you can set component 1 for 85 contrast and 70 brightness and not affect component 2 at all.Quote
I can order a card that replaces the Charter box?
Yup , but you'll lose that special Guide channel functionality and the ability to order Pay Per View programs with a button. I like the extra functionality of the cablebox so I upgraded mine.Quote
Something that surprised me was watching a DVD the other night, "V - For Vendetta", and it was letterboxed, the only way to get it to fill the screen on the top and bottom was zooming in, which clipped right and left edges. So we left it letterboxed, I didn't know if it was something my Zenith DVD player could adjust or not, or simply a function of the recorded program content.
Many movies are created in 2.35:1 which is a cinema format and doesn't match up to 16:9 TV (which is about 1.79:1), it's all about the "directors vision" of how they want you to see the film , 2.35:1 will letterbox on a 16:9 tv , if you read the fine print on the bottom of the back cover it usually tells you the aspect ratio , something else I never noticed till i got a widescreen ...Ray
Post by: Vodka7 on January 06, 2007, 06:16:20 PM
I can order a card that replaces the Charter box?
That's a cable card, and you can't buy one, but you can rent one (if Charter has them, not everyone does.) A few notes on it: it's one way only, so you lose all interactive features on the box--the channel guide and PPV/VOD access. Basically, it will be like back in ye olden days when you could just plug the wire from the wall straight into the back of the TV and flip through channels manually. Except it supports digital channels and HD channels.
It's usually a signifigantly cheaper rate than a cable box, but keep one thing in mind--cable companies hate cable card users and will do everything in their power to make it inconvenient for you to actually get one. They hate customers who can't order their high profit things like PPV and SVOD, and will make your life hell trying to get an installation for a CableCard. (And yes, they *will* make you schedule an appointment so a tech can come to your home and spend about two minutes plugging the card in the back of your TV and setting it up. And they will charge you for the installation visit. They don't mail them out and you can't pick them up at the stores, assuming your company even has a store near you.)
Also, the documentation the CableCard manufacturers give cable companies is ridiculous. At my old company, the troubleshooting we were provided straight from the manufacturer went something like this:
-Does it work?
-It should work.
-Does it work?
-Send a tech with a replacement part.
It even included a script for running the customer through "rebooting" the CableCard, along with full disclosure that there is no way to reboot a CableCard and that the script was just to calm the customer down. We were supposed to have you remove the CC from the TV for 30 seconds just because people are used to doing so on their cable modems and cable boxes, but it doesn't do a damn thing for the CC. If it's broke, you're gonna have to schedule an appointment.
All those things said, I would highly recommend one as a second set solution--something for the bedroom, kitchen, or kids, but not for the primary TV. Get an HD box. Also, check to see if they're going to send you HD cables. At my company, we sent out the RGB/composite cables along with component cables for sound, but you had to buy the HDMI cord yourself. Also, some companies have multiple boxes depending on the input you need. We had a huge stock of RGB HD boxes and would send those out unless a customer specifically requested an HDMI box because we had a lot less of those.
Post by: zahc on January 06, 2007, 06:47:12 PM
Quote
Something that surprised me was watching a DVD the other night, "V - For Vendetta", and it was letterboxed, the only way to get it to fill the screen on the top and bottom was zooming in, which clipped right and left edges. So we left it letterboxed, I didn't know if it was something my Zenith DVD player could adjust or not, or simply a function of the recorded program content.
Once again:
Most properly released hollywood movies will exhibit letterboxing EVEN WITH WIDESCREEN TVs. This is because movies are shot in even 'widerscreen'. There is nothing you can do about it. It is indeed a function of the recorded program content.
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 23, 2007, 05:41:48 PM
When using the Input 3 and Input 4 component video feeds into the set, namely from my HD cable box and DVD player, I couldn't monitor the sound and feed it into my 6-channel Yamaha DSP-1, which branches the signal out to the Jolida vacuum tube front end and Yamaha 4-channel Dolby Surround and effects system. I noticed that the Hitachi has a digital optical audio out via Toslink, but the Monitor Out RCA jacks don't function on digital TV signals. Bummer, because I've really grown fond of the HD local and cable channels, as well as watching DVDs via the component video feed.
So I had to improvise, and come up with a way to feed the audio signal back out to my 6-channel sound system. What good is a nice 42" HD plasma TV if you can't hear all of what's playing on Discovery HD Theater?
So I ended up with a stand-alone Digital-to-Analog converter, which takes the fiber optic audio feed from the Hitachi plasma TV, then spits out the left and right RCA analog audio to the input of the Yamaha DSP-1, which decodes the Dolby signal and sends 6 channels to their respective amplifiers and speakers.
Boy, those DAC units aren't cheap! But tonight, when I got all the ugly wires tied up and hidden, then fired up everything, it was great! I watched the Lord of War DVD, then viewed some Discovery HD Theater, and my wife is watching the Paint Your Wagon DVD right now.
Pictures of the setup maybe tomorrow. I have to go listen to Clint Eastwood sing right now.
And now I see BlueRay DVD technology is being pushed. Oy, veh!
Post by: RocketMan on January 23, 2007, 07:33:53 PM
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 24, 2007, 12:24:03 PM
Save for the too-short Toslink cable (see it levitating in there?) between HDTV and audio rack, it all cleaned up pretty good. I've got a 12-foot fiber optic cable enroute to fix that, too.
That's the scene in "The Addams Family" where Wednesday Addams and her fellow indian braves take over the summer camp play and wreak havoc.
Post by: Vodka7 on January 24, 2007, 02:03:22 PM
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 24, 2007, 02:08:08 PM
Brad
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 24, 2007, 04:15:33 PM
I "fixed" the ghosting problem when I took the next picture.
Post by: Matt-man on January 25, 2007, 01:29:54 AM
So I ended up with a stand-alone Digital-to-Analog converter, which takes the fiber optic audio feed from the Hitachi plasma TV, then spits out the left and right RCA analog audio to the input of the Yamaha DSP-1, which decodes the Dolby signal and sends 6 channels to their respective amplifiers and speakers.
I follow what you've got set up there, but I have to ask: Why not a standalone Dolby Digital processor that can accept the digital datastream and output six analog channels? Even better, most good A/V receivers these days handle switching of video as well as audio, greatly simplifying the operation of the whole system.
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 25, 2007, 07:04:20 AM
Kinda like Bose speakers, one eventually outgrows that stuff. That tube amp gets straight-shot, unadulterated left and right front channel feeds from the CD/DVD player, the turntable, and now from the digital cable box by way of the DAC, then kicks it out as a nice warm sound, regardless of volume level. Life is good, and I've got more matched quads of tubes just in case.
Switching video is really easy with the Hitachi plasma - the darned thing has a bazillion inputs all selectable by the remote. No big deal, there.
Dolby Digital 5.1 is indeed nice, and I'd love a standalone processor for it. Problem is, if you know your audio history, the Yamaha DSP-1 wrote the book on digital sound field synthesis, even if it's the older Dolby analog surround. Every parameter of the surround sound fields created by the DSP-1 can be edited by the user, which is really nice because not all home theater listening environments are the same with respect to audio qualities - regardless of what Bose says and does. Bob Carver tried something similar with his Sonic Hologram Generator, to a lesser degree. The DSP-1 was a watershed invention for the day, and still quite collectible. I like it because it left the input signal alone and fed it along to my tube amp for the front two channels, and does the digital wizardry with the remaining four channels via the Yamaha M35 4-channel power amp sitting next to it. I may get two more stereo tube amps for the surround channels eventually, but that's a lot of heat and rack space.
I'm actually bidding on another DSP-1 unit and 4-channel power amp for my Dad to use with his big Mitsubishi projection HDTV and Dish Network setup. He was watching Discovery HD Theater with me the other day and loved the sound.
Now if people would stop regarding it as a collector's item and keep the bid prices down...
More on the Yamaha DSP-1 and why I keep it in my audio rack:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_DSP-1
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 25, 2007, 09:37:33 AM
Quote
A/V receiver? As in solid-state, integrated circuit shrill, harsh, clipping transistorized A/V receiver? Icky-poo.
Tube envy.
Brad
Post by: Matt-man on January 25, 2007, 09:56:39 AM
Ah, Matt-man, you forget. See that thing on the top of the oak audio rack? Yup, it's a vacuum-tube integrated amp. $1,200 worth of tubes and transformers, probably the best audio investment I've ever made. A/V receiver? As in solid-state, integrated circuit shrill, harsh, clipping transistorized A/V receiver? Icky-poo.
Well, that's why I mentioned a standalone processor. Seems like a lot of higher-end audio companies have gotten into the home theater game lately, and I'm sure there are processors out there that are up to the quality of amplification. It just seemed strange to me to downmix the 5.1 signal into stereo and then pull the six channels out of that.
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 25, 2007, 10:39:41 AM
I'm pulling down the older Dolby analog (Pro Logic) surround info, which is still very much alive and well in recorded media these days. I'm having way too much fun with that, and it works better with my vacuum tube system. Maybe if I bought a couple more $1,200 2-channel tube amps for the extra 4 channels, but my current wife is already drawing the line at how much real estate my audio/video system can inhabit. Honestly, Dolby Digital 5.1 is wonderful, if you're set up for a separate subwoofer channel, center channel, and the four corners. Think Bose AM-10 and newer (ick, gotta swig some mouthwash after that), where you have satellite speakers and a subwoofer hidden somewhere. Bose makes some wonderful noise-cancelling headsets (I had a pair when I was flying for the Air Force) but everything else is just a marketing triumph for old Amar Gopal Bose, now worth an estimated $1.5 billion.
It may be old-school, but I believe my bass and treble should come from the same box, namely my ESS AMT1 monitors that run real 12" woofers, etc. You don't see them in the pics above because the woofers and passive radiators are off getting new surrounds installed, so a set of cheaper 2-way towers are doing standby duty. Everybody is all googly-eyed over the little satellite and subwoofer box thing, but to my ears they offer absolutely nothing, with zero presence and midrange, and a horribly over-emphasized bass boom. I don't have golden ears, I don't even have tone controls on my amps, but when I have my system fired up and Stevie Ray Vaughan is playing "Little Wing" (or even Diana Krall's "I've Got You Under My Skin"), you can close your eyes and they're on stage right there in front of you, NOT coming from a bunch of little boxes scattered in a room. I believe the audiophiles call that soundstage presence, but to me it means the combination of black boxes with neat lights, glowing vacuum tubes, and big wooden boxes are working together the way they're supposed to. Put a half-speed mastered vinyl version of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" on the turntable, ease the tonearm w/Grado cartridge down, and you'll HATE CD audio.
I don't really suffer when it comes to home theater, either. When I watch my Apocalypse Now DVD, I run that same system, but I also fire up the Yamaha DSP-1 and M35 power amp, then drive 4 additional vintage Radio Shack Minimus 7 speakers so I can hear the bullets tear through the jungle canopy and helicopters move around overhead.
Although, eventually I will have a set of Magneplanars like Bogie has.
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 25, 2007, 11:14:09 AM
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4 additional vintage Radio Shack Minimus 7 speakers
The Mini 7's RULE! Got two of them for my L&R surrounds. Mains are old Optimus Mach II's. Used to run four of them (stacked two to a side) but the ex got two of them, plus the Minimus 11's from the bedroom system, when she left. Dang. It's still good now, but the beach scene in "Saving Private Ryan" took on an entirely new dimension with four 15" subs driving the lows.
Brad
Post by: zahc on January 25, 2007, 04:26:17 PM
I personally refuse to alter my stereo system, so I have a technics surround processor. I send the front channels to my stereo system, and the back channels to another stereo amp for the rears, and set the processor for phantom center. It works for me; I don't listen to multichannel music except in movies.
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 25, 2007, 04:39:55 PM
But I did discover not too long ago that certain music CD disks actually have a Dolby Surround channel encoded. Color me surprised! (But not for Led Zeppelin, bummer...)