Author Topic: Good article on the unsustainability of Federal debt  (Read 1124 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Good article on the unsustainability of Federal debt
« on: March 20, 2010, 10:47:39 PM »
A good, concise article on the economic problems we in, and what's coming in the future unless we radically constrain further deficit spending and correct the banking situation for real.

I ask everyone to read it and think about it.  It's a bit sobering.  

I've re-read it a couple of times hoping to find a flaw in his argument, hoping that this really isn't true, but I can't find any major faults in his reasoning or conclusions.  Maybe makattak can see something in it that I've missed...?

http://market-ticker.org/archives/1439-WARNING-Deflationary-Collapse-Dead-Ahead.html

(The original article contains charts and graphics, so I don't want to put a text only copy-paste here.  Clicky the linky to see the pics.)

makattak

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Re: Good article on the unsustainability of Federal debt
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2010, 11:11:54 PM »
Umm...

Our debt load is unsustainable. But, the guy is nuts. Given his assumptions, his reasoning works.

But his assumptions are wrong.

First, the market is currently clearing debt. Personal debt and corporate debt is down.

Secondly, most of the bad credit WAS forced out of the system in 2000. That's why we don't have RandomCrapthatIthoughtuptogetpeopletobuyintomyIPO.com anymore.

Third: A DEFLATIONARY collapse? Seriously? That's effectively impossible. For all the faults of the Fed, that's the one thing that it can and will prevent.

He's right that we need less debt in this country. Our savings rate needs to be greater than zero.

A recession/depression might cause it to increase. In fact, as I noted above, it is increasing currently. For all the bad that the Obama administration has caused, should we survive his administration, people may actually be a bit more cautious about savings.

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Good article on the unsustainability of Federal debt
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2010, 12:11:51 PM »
Quote
First, the market is currently clearing debt. Personal debt and corporate debt is down.
Yes, the market is currently clearing debt.  But most of the bad debt remains.  In a historical sense overall debt levels are still elevated and bank leverage is still high.  Most banks are insolvent, or would be if we bothered to do the accounting. There's gobs of fixed income debt issued by companies that no longer have the revenue to service that debt.  Stock prices are extremely high relative to earnings.

Scary levels of bad debt remain.  And even worse, it looks like the economy might resume sputtering along without coming anywhere close to clearing all of this bad debt.  We're like Wile-E-Coyote running off the edge of the cliff.  We know there's nothing to stand on, but we think that if we dont' look down it'll be OK.

Quote
Secondly, most of the bad credit WAS forced out of the system in 2000. That's why we don't have RandomCrapthatIthoughtuptogetpeopletobuyintomyIPO.com anymore.
I think some of the bad debt from 2000 was cleared at the time, but not all.  The numbers I've seen indicate that a lot of it endured.  Not in the stock market, but elsewhere.  Granted, I could be wrong here.

Regardless, overall debt levels rose throughout the 2000s without a comparable increase in underlying value.  Even if we accept that all of the nonsense dotcom debt disappeared, it was more than replaced by other bad debt since then.

Quote
Third: A DEFLATIONARY  collapse? Seriously? That's effectively impossible. For all the faults of the Fed, that's the one thing that it can and will prevent.
This is one of those orthodox economics views that really baffles me.  And this seems to be the root of the issue.  Economists always seem to assume that deflation is impossible.

But is it really?

Deflation is happening right now.  It's been happening since 2008.  Since then banks aren't lending nearly as much, bank customers aren't borrowing nearly as much, the money supply is shrinking, and in the markets the only major asset class that has risen is cash and cash equivalents (gold, treasuries, high grade bonds).  A dollar now buys more real estate, more stock, more commodities, more equipment.  Manufacturers and retailers have no pricing power.  Even CPI is flirting with the zero line, which is striking considering what CPI includes and omits.

And has the Fed been able to stop it?  They've set interest rates to zero, and held them there fore more than a year.  They've even tried monetizing some debt.  Helicopter Ben has lived up to his name, and what has it accomplished?  Nothing.

And if the Fed can be counted on to prevent deflationary collapses, why didn't they do so in the '30s?

Seems to me the Fed has a pretty poor record for dealing with deflation.  Fundamentally, this makes sense.  All the Fed can really to is try to persuade people to borrow more by making it cheaper to do so.  But if people aren't willing to borrow, even at zero interest rates, what then?

Inor

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Re: Good article on the unsustainability of Federal debt
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2010, 06:42:39 PM »
Deflation is happening right now.  It's been happening since 2008.  Since then banks aren't lending nearly as much, bank customers aren't borrowing nearly as much, the money supply is shrinking, and in the markets the only major asset class that has risen is cash and cash equivalents (gold, treasuries, high grade bonds).  A dollar now buys more real estate, more stock, more commodities, more equipment.  Manufacturers and retailers have no pricing power.  Even CPI is flirting with the zero line, which is striking considering what CPI includes and omits.

Personally, I think we have the "illusion" of deflation right now.  According to the FRB, the M2 money supply is still at almost $8.5 trillion which is still more than a trillion higher than it was at the start of the recession.  Even more scary is the estimate of the M3 money supply by ShadowStats.com (which the Fed no longer publishes) is that there is a bit over $14 trillion dollars "active" in the U.S. economy.  That is down about $750 billion from its all-tme high last summer.


Again, according to the Fed, banks have increased their holdings of cash and equivalants by more than 2000% in the last year or so.  It appears to me the banks are not lending because they can borrow money from the Fed at next to nothing and turn around and buy 3-5 year t-bills at 2-3% and have no risk.

The real problem comes in, as I see it, when the Fed raises rates and makes that play no longer profitable.  The banks will stumble over each other to start making loans to individuals and corporations just about the time the economy is producing the smallest number of goods and services.  We will have a large number of dollars chasing less available goods.  Also, as the banks start to dump their t-bill holdings to be able to make loans again, that will put huge inflationary pressure on the dollar.

Or, maybe I am completely crazy...