Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: 41magsnub on April 13, 2011, 11:16:38 AM
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Missoula just passed an ordnance requiring a building permit and inspection of low voltage wiring installs in multifamily, commercial, and industrial buildings.
This means we have to go through a permitting process for all of our data cabling, voice cabling, tv cabling, and etc.
I thought we were going to have this beat but it passed last night.
This is a BIG deal for my business, every time we string some CAT5 across a suspended ceiling to light up a new jack it requires this whole rigamorole. A 30 minute job is going to turn into a couple of hours due to the paperwork and inspection.
We had asked that if they are set on doing this, only require a permit/inspection if the wiring breaches a firewall or goes through duct work as those need some resealing or plenum wire. But, for all wiring is a huge pain in the rear.
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San Missoula ...?
Missoulafornia ???
:mad:
Heck, where I live we don't even know what a building permit is ;/
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Want to hire my brother? he's getting near his 99 weeks and he says he don't want to do nothing but run cable. Thought I'd throw that in there.
Think of it this way. Hopefully it'll put the fly by nighters that steal your jobs with lowball bids back a bit. Just raise prices accordingly. what elkse can you do?
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Most people will just ignore it and do the work anyway.
Again, this is why the folks in the Planing and Zoning Departments will be some of the first up against the wall when the revolution begins.
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Get an attorney, if you have one in the opposition, to submit for an injunction under the auspices of unreasonable burden. If it's granted then you can force the council to amend it to something more reasonable.
First question is, though, who got their panties in wad enough to require permiting for friggin data cabling? It's not like it's a health or safety hazard.
Brad
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It's covered in the National Electric Code, and if it's done wrong it can be dangerous -- such as installers punching holes through fire walls, etc. The general rule is, if it's in the code, it needs a permit. I am amazed that there was any place in the U.S. that DIDN'T require a permit to install low-voltage cable.
Why is it so burdensome to take out a permit? If you have a facility that changes that stuff on a routine basis, I'm pretty sure the code makes provision for an annual license to cover all routine changes without requiring separate permits.
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Missoula just passed an ordnance . . .
Sounds like the city dumped a bomb . . . much worse than passing an ordinance, which is merely a law.
;)
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Sounds like the city just figured out a new revenue source.
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Sounds like the city just figured out a new revenue source.
We have a winner!
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We have a winner!
That's a common misconception. I suppose it varies by state 9and county) -- what doesn't? Around here (the entire state), the building inspection departments don't generate as much revenue as they cost to run, so it isn't like they're cash cows or anything.
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Such ordinances are often referred to as "incumbent protection".
Now, you have to hire a licensed electrician (or power-limited licensee) to install the wiring, I s'pose, as the permit will probably require a contractor's or electrician's license number on it.
The unions and license boards (as well as the "old boys") love this kind of requirement and lobby hard for it.
jb
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Gol durn right we do. If we spend the time and money it takes to become a legitimate qualified installer of some thing or another we'd like to preclude those that just wing it and low ball everybody on pricing because they don't spend money on things like insurance and workman's comp.
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Now, you have to hire a licensed electrician (or power-limited licensee) to install the wiring, I s'pose, as the permit will probably require a contractor's or electrician's license number on it.
Yes, and with good reason.
Every state (AFAIK) allows homeowners to do their own electrical and their own plumbing. Permits are still required, but no need to hire a licensed professional.
"No need," that is, unless you take a look at what some people think is perfectly satisfactory electrical or plumbing work. I've seen things that would make your hair stand on end. Stuff that's absolutely, positively dangerous, and the dweebs not only don't have a clue, they also get upset when it's suggested they might want to do it right if they expect the inspector to sign off and allow them to use the installation.
It shows the truth in the saying that "Ignorance can be corrected by education; stupid is forever."
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Ah. The incumbants have spoken.
I rest my case.
jb
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No, the people that take the time and money to learn how to do it right and be all legitimate have spoken. ;)
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NEC Article 90-13 Commercial Low Voltage
1. The Commercial Low Voltage Permit will apply to commercial, industrial, and muti-family complexes with three or more units.
2. Commercial low voltage installations that are associated with a project that has a building permit will not require a commercial low voltage permit.
3. Installation of new cable in an existing pathway will not require a permit as long as the existing pathways are in compliance with the codes.
4. Cable installations that do not penetrate fire walls, floors, or ceilings. or installed above ceiling grid systems will not require a permit. Installations within ceiling grid systems will require a Low Voltage Permit.
5. The City Building Department will provide a limited checklist with code references to assist inspectors and installers.
6. The first six months after the adoption of the ordinance, there will be a flat fee of $64 per commercial low voltage permit.
7. Commercial low voltage permit fees are based on the project cost which is the total cost of all labor and materials to complete the low voltage project. Electrical materials furnished by the owner must be included in the total low voltage project costs. Devices are not to be included in the total cost in determining the low voltage fee.
8. The commercial low voltage permit, once issued, shall become invalid unless the work on the site authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance, or if the work authorized on the site by such permit is suspended or abandoned for a period of 180 days after the work has commenced. The building official is authorized to grant in writing, one or more extensions of time, for a period not more than 180 days each. The extension shall be requested in writing and justifiable cause demonstrated.
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A permit for low voltage is sheer jackassery.
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Ah. The incumbants have spoken.
I rest my case.
On what? I'm a licensed architect and a licensed building inspector. I've been in the profession for more than thirty years. It's difficult enough to get licensed electricians to do the work to code sometimes. Any time you get unlicensed people involved, it can be impossible. I know this to be fact ... I see it in the field on a regular basis. And I also know first-hand that it costs more to run the departement of building inspection in most municipalities than they take in in permit fees, so the argument that these laws are just to make money goes out the window.
What is the factual basis for your contention that inspections aren't necessary?
Here's an example: satellite television systems. A couple of years ago I changed from cable to satellite. I prewired my house and ran the antenna wires to the point on the exterior where the dish would be mounted, because I didn't want to see a bunch of spaghetti strung around the outside of the house.
So the first thing the installers wanted to do was string a bunch of spaghetti around the outside of the house, to bring a wire back to the electric meter downlead. They claimed it was "required" for grounding. I threw them off the property. The next day my boss and I called NFPA and talked to the man who wrote the "National Electric Code Handbook." He confirmed that satellite dish installations are covered by the code, so the installers should have taken out a permit (they never do). And he confirmed that, while grounding is required, the way the installers proposed to do it was NOT in compliance with the code. First, the length of wire would have been too long. Second, it would have included several 90-degree bends -- not allowed. Third, the point to which they proposed attaching the ground wire isn't even grounded on my house.
I went back and installed a compliant grounding system, then I called the company again and they sent a different crew. The second team actually knew their stuff, and they recognized immediately that the grounding system was done right. They were happy campers because it made their installation super easy -- it took them half the time they had figured and were able to go home early for the weekend. The first crew were subcontractors, who barely spoke English and who drove an unmarked pickup truck. The second crew arrived wearing company uniforms, in company vans.
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its a money maker when they raise your tax assessment
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its a money maker when they raise your tax assessment
They raise your taxes for running low-voltage communication cables?
You should move to a free state.
Aside from which, building inspectors don't raise taxes. There's another department that does that.
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NEC Article 90-13 Commercial Low Voltage
1. The Commercial Low Voltage Permit will apply to commercial, industrial, and muti-family complexes with three or more units.
2. Commercial low voltage installations that are associated with a project that has a building permit will not require a commercial low voltage permit.
3. Installation of new cable in an existing pathway will not require a permit as long as the existing pathways are in compliance with the codes.
4. Cable installations that do not penetrate fire walls, floors, or ceilings. or installed above ceiling grid systems will not require a permit. Installations within ceiling grid systems will require a Low Voltage Permit.
5. The City Building Department will provide a limited checklist with code references to assist inspectors and installers.
6. The first six months after the adoption of the ordinance, there will be a flat fee of $64 per commercial low voltage permit.
7. Commercial low voltage permit fees are based on the project cost which is the total cost of all labor and materials to complete the low voltage project. Electrical materials furnished by the owner must be included in the total low voltage project costs. Devices are not to be included in the total cost in determining the low voltage fee.
8. The commercial low voltage permit, once issued, shall become invalid unless the work on the site authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance, or if the work authorized on the site by such permit is suspended or abandoned for a period of 180 days after the work has commenced. The building official is authorized to grant in writing, one or more extensions of time, for a period not more than 180 days each. The extension shall be requested in writing and justifiable cause demonstrated.
What is the difference between "within" and "above" in #4
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We were just discussing that in the office. We are a bit confused as well.
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"above" the ceiling is on roof deck or on the floor above.
"within" the ceiling is between the paint on your ceiling and below the roof deck or subfloor above.
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So you have to have a permit to run a phone or data wire above a hanging ceiling ???
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"above" the ceiling is on roof deck or on the floor above.
"within" the ceiling is between the paint on your ceiling and below the roof deck or subfloor above.
How does that relate to ceiling grid systems (which, based on the text, seem to be the standard suspended ceiling systems). It seems to me that if that is in fact the case, would "within" be in the tile itself?
I thought the whole point of suspended ceiling grids was to enable the use of non plenum or in-wall cable, allow easy distribution of services and wiring, without structural or code-required complexities.
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I thought the whole point of suspended ceiling grids was to enable the use of non plenum or in-wall cable, allow easy distribution of services and wiring, without structural or code-required complexities.
The point of suspended ceilings is to have inexpensive ceilings that allow for access to whatever is in the ceiling cavity without having to perform destructive demolition to get access. It has nothing to do with allowing the use of non-plenum-rated cable. In fact, non-plenum-rated cable IS the problem ... because if nobody's looking, it often gets used in a ceiling that IS a plenum, and then you have the potential for a fire to spread toxic smoke and particulates through the entire building by way of the ventilation system.
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So, in theory, it's tough to take an old existing suspended ceiling and turn it into a plenum. Was not aware of that. Interesting AND good to know. ;)
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But that still doesn't answer my question.
What is the difference between "above" and "within" ceiling grid systems. If the two statements are equivalent, why does that code posted treat them differently. If they aren't, what is the difference?
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SWAG - How about like when you mount a hardwired smoke detector or PA speaker in a tile like they do. Is that "within" the grid?
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i gotta admit there is a need for inspections. i did an install at the tgif in fairfax. i popped up a ceiling tile so i could cast a low voltage line to far side of bar. i discovered that the drywall ceiling was screwed and glued to an earlier drop ceiling. awful lotta weight hanging from those support wires
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I had one once where they had wired steel 2 x 4s to the ceiling horizontally to create a tray effect below and above that was where I had to go to change the A/C filter. Virtually impossible to get to unless you're brave enough to walk on the sprinkler pipes instead. That was a while ago. Not sure if I'm still young, dumb and light enough to do that anymore. :P
:lol:
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But that still doesn't answer my question.
What is the difference between "above" and "within" ceiling grid systems. If the two statements are equivalent, why does that code posted treat them differently. If they aren't, what is the difference?
Thread jack:
66 posts already!
I'm glad you're enjoying it here, Marc. You fit in much better around here than in our "other" board.
Less morons, more ammunition. Etc.
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But that still doesn't answer my question.
What is the difference between "above" and "within" ceiling grid systems. If the two statements are equivalent, why does that code posted treat them differently. If they aren't, what is the difference?
Good question. I don't think the section quoted really comes from the National Electrical Code. I just grabbed my copy of the 2005 edition, which is what's in effect here. Article 90 is the first chapter, entitled "Introduction." It's about administration, not technical matters. And there is no section 90-13 -- it ends with section 90-9.
The NEC would never use terms like "City." It's written for use by states, cities, towns, counties, and all levels of jurisdiction. It uses the term "authority having jurisdiction." This makes me think that the section quoted was written as a local amendment to the NEC, and it's not surprising that a local amendment wouldn't makes sense because they are all too often written by people who have only a passing familiarity with the actual work, and zero ability to write cogent English sentences.
A ceiling grid IS just the grid -- not the tiles, and certainly not the roof. I don't know of any way wiring can be run "in" a grid system.
To save you looking back, here's the section quoted that purports to be from the NEC (but probably isn't):
NEC Article 90-13 Commercial Low Voltage
1. The Commercial Low Voltage Permit will apply to commercial, industrial, and muti-family complexes with three or more units.
2. Commercial low voltage installations that are associated with a project that has a building permit will not require a commercial low voltage permit.
3. Installation of new cable in an existing pathway will not require a permit as long as the existing pathways are in compliance with the codes.
4. Cable installations that do not penetrate fire walls, floors, or ceilings. or installed above ceiling grid systems will not require a permit. Installations within ceiling grid systems will require a Low Voltage Permit.
5. The City Building Department will provide a limited checklist with code references to assist inspectors and installers.
6. The first six months after the adoption of the ordinance, there will be a flat fee of $64 per commercial low voltage permit.
7. Commercial low voltage permit fees are based on the project cost which is the total cost of all labor and materials to complete the low voltage project. Electrical materials furnished by the owner must be included in the total low voltage project costs. Devices are not to be included in the total cost in determining the low voltage fee.
8. The commercial low voltage permit, once issued, shall become invalid unless the work on the site authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance, or if the work authorized on the site by such permit is suspended or abandoned for a period of 180 days after the work has commenced. The building official is authorized to grant in writing, one or more extensions of time, for a period not more than 180 days each. The extension shall be requested in writing and justifiable cause demonstrated.
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What I posted was the actual city ordnance.
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FYI, the local authoriy has final say over the interpretation of NEC etc...
If they get a little too crazy your next step is to bring it to the attention of the town council.
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What I posted was the actual city ordnance.
That's what I surmised. But your post said it was the National Electrical Code:
NEC Article 90-13 Commercial Low Voltage
"NEC" is National Electrical Code
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Damnit.. I keep mis-spelling ordinance and the spell checker goes and makes it into ordnance! [ar15]
Better than the one I did on THR a few years ago spell check got me on where I climbed a mile up the bottom of a big coolie instead of a coulee...
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That's what I surmised. But your post said it was the National Electrical Code:
"NEC" is National Electrical Code
That is the exact verbiage from the ordinance (I got it right this time!). NEC deal and all.
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That's ok, I know a guy who relied on spellcheck for his whole book. Interesting read. ;)
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That is the exact verbiage from the ordinance (I got it right this time!). NEC deal and all.
Yep. Just proves my point:
This makes me think that the section quoted was written as a local amendment to the NEC, and it's not surprising that a local amendment wouldn't makes sense because they are all too often written by people who have only a passing familiarity with the actual work, and zero ability to write cogent English sentences.
It is NOT the NEC if it was not written and published by the National Fire Protection Association. It's a local ordinance, and it makes about as much sense as most local attempts to write a building code requirement ==> none.
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I thought the whole point of suspended ceiling grids was to enable the use of non plenum or in-wall cable, allow easy distribution of services and wiring, without structural or code-required complexities.
No, they're also often used as a butt-ugly "modern" way to cover up beautiful handmade hardwood and plasterwork ceilings.
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Tin ceilings too... :'(