Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 136869 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1275 on: April 06, 2022, 10:30:20 AM »


How complicated is a tank transmission?  Is it fairly intuitive once in the cockpit to figure out where neutral is?  Wondering how these farmers are getting these tanks into neutral to tow them.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1276 on: April 06, 2022, 10:35:52 AM »
How complicated is a tank transmission?  Is it fairly intuitive once in the cockpit to figure out where neutral is?  Wondering how these farmers are getting these tanks into neutral to tow them.

Chieftain has a bunch of videos where he explains how to drive the tank in the video including how to operate the transmission. Most IMHO shouldn't be too hard for someone familiar with mechanize equipment to figure out. Plus many of those farmers could be ex military and may have experience with tanks possibly even the exact same or similar enough model.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1277 on: April 06, 2022, 10:51:55 AM »
And you may note the tank has a V painted on the side. The Russians has also been painting Vs and Os on their vehicles in addition to the Zs you so often see.
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Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1278 on: April 06, 2022, 11:09:57 AM »

"Rules of war" are ridiculous.


No they aren't ridiculous.  Some rules make war less horrific for noncombatants and sometimes combatants.  Simple things that can be agreed upon by any country that isn't total garbage.  Here are some examples:

Don't murder POWs.  This makes it less likely you will be killed if you become a POW also.

Don't torture POWs.  Ditto.

Don't murder or rape civilian noncombatants.  They will be less likely to do the same to your civilian population.  Also, Russia is currently murdering and raping civilians in the Ukraine.  How is this "helping" them?  It is getting more aid to Ukraine, just like German atrocities in Belgium helped pull England into WW1 against the Germans.  That sure worked out for the Kaiser, didn't it?

Don't kill medics or destroy ambulances.  If you are wounded and taken prisoner, enemy medics may be caring for you.  Also, if rules are respected, they will not kill your medics.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1279 on: April 06, 2022, 11:11:28 AM »
How complicated is a tank transmission?  Is it fairly intuitive once in the cockpit to figure out where neutral is?  Wondering how these farmers are getting these tanks into neutral to tow them.

The video I saw of a tractor pulling a tank looked like a JD 8430, which is the same tractor I did tillage with last fall. It is about 225 hp at the drawbar (330 HP engine) and it is seriously low geared and has a lot of torque. I pulled a 5 shank ripper last fall at 7mph through corn stubble like butter.

I wouldn't be surprised if the operator just hooked on to the tank and pulled until something broke loose.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1280 on: April 06, 2022, 11:43:35 AM »
Quote
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1281 on: April 06, 2022, 11:46:29 AM »
How complicated is a tank transmission?  Is it fairly intuitive once in the cockpit to figure out where neutral is?  Wondering how these farmers are getting these tanks into neutral to tow them.

There's a lever on the right marked "3X-H-1-2-3-4-5-6".  In Cyrillic "H" is the letter "N".  That's neutral.


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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1282 on: April 06, 2022, 11:57:08 AM »
Russian tanks have historically been made for conscripts to operate. Shouldn’t be hard to put it in neutral. How they disengage the park brake if they have one I don’t know but should also be easy to find out.
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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1283 on: April 06, 2022, 12:01:34 PM »
No they aren't ridiculous.  Some rules make war less horrific for noncombatants and sometimes combatants.  Simple things that can be agreed upon by any country that isn't total garbage.  Here are some examples:

Don't murder POWs.  This makes it less likely you will be killed if you become a POW also.

Don't torture POWs.  Ditto.

Don't murder or rape civilian noncombatants.  They will be less likely to do the same to your civilian population.  Also, Russia is currently murdering and raping civilians in the Ukraine.  How is this "helping" them?  It is getting more aid to Ukraine, just like German atrocities in Belgium helped pull England into WW1 against the Germans.  That sure worked out for the Kaiser, didn't it?

Don't kill medics or destroy ambulances.  If you are wounded and taken prisoner, enemy medics may be caring for you.  Also, if rules are respected, they will not kill your medics.

You’ll note that from WWII to now only Western/Allied nations have paid any attention to “rules of war”. The Germans and Soviets (against each other) didn’t, the Japanese certainly did not, the North Koreans and Chinese didn’t, the Vietnamese didn’t, and the Screaming Beard nations obviously don’t.
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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1284 on: April 06, 2022, 12:07:26 PM »
Russian tanks have historically been made for conscripts to operate. Shouldn’t be hard to put it in neutral. How they disengage the park brake if they have one I don’t know but should also be easy to find out.

IIRC the brake is that green lever behind the gearshift, but I could be wrong.  I got to joyride a T-72 back in 08, but I didn't get a formal class.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1285 on: April 06, 2022, 02:48:12 PM »
Quote
No they aren't ridiculous.  Some rules make war less horrific for noncombatants and sometimes combatants.  Simple things that can be agreed upon by any country that isn't total garbage.  Here are some examples:

Don't murder POWs.  This makes it less likely you will be killed if you become a POW also.

Don't torture POWs.  Ditto.

Don't murder or rape civilian noncombatants.  They will be less likely to do the same to your civilian population.  Also, Russia is currently murdering and raping civilians in the Ukraine.  How is this "helping" them?  It is getting more aid to Ukraine, just like German atrocities in Belgium helped pull England into WW1 against the Germans.  That sure worked out for the Kaiser, didn't it?

Don't kill medics or destroy ambulances.  If you are wounded and taken prisoner, enemy medics may be caring for you.  Also, if rules are respected, they will not kill your medics.



You’ll note that from WWII to now only Western/Allied nations have paid any attention to “rules of war”. The Germans and Soviets (against each other) didn’t, the Japanese certainly did not, the North Koreans and Chinese didn’t, the Vietnamese didn’t, and the Screaming Beard nations obviously don’t.

If you've got enough in common to have rules of war you both agree to, then chances are you can find a better way to resolve the conflict than a war anyways.

Note that there are no Western-on-Western conflicts since the inception of the 1949 Geneva Conventions.    The conflicts that become wars now are because the world is shrinking, technology brings incompatible cultures closer to each other, and when the value systems clash there will also be one party that doesn't care about the Geneva Conventions, or one party that has a different idea of what a moral war should be like.

That and the Geneva Conventions are effectively a trap anyways, for the vast majority of the civilian world.  Half the time the combating forces won't adhere to them, then there's the other times where the supposedly adhering forces will try to ignore them anyways, like Bush and Rumsfeld did with Gitmo, going so far as to label US Citizens as unlawful enemy combatants and unilaterally declaring those citizens as members of a State-defined terrorist organization.  There's absolutely no potential for governmental abuse there, right?  /s

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Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1287 on: April 06, 2022, 10:57:47 PM »
You’ll note that from WWII to now only Western/Allied nations have paid any attention to “rules of war”. The Germans and Soviets (against each other) didn’t, the Japanese certainly did not, the North Koreans and Chinese didn’t, the Vietnamese didn’t, and the Screaming Beard nations obviously don’t.

Because many nations do not follow rules for war does not mean they are not good.

For example, the rape and murder Russia is currently doing in the Ukraine is actually harming their efforts, in addition to being evil.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1288 on: April 07, 2022, 01:06:35 AM »
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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1290 on: April 07, 2022, 11:02:00 AM »
They keep updating this link.  Russia has lost more armor than many countries have active today.  That's nuts.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

Russian vehicle losses
Total: 2573, of which: destroyed: 1321, damaged: 38, abandoned: 237, captured: 977
Tanks (450, of which destroyed: 221, damaged: 6, abandoned: 41, captured: 182)
Armoured Fighting Vehicles (283, of which destroyed: 133, abandoned: 32, captured: 118)
Infantry Fighting Vehicles (453, of which destroyed: 258, damaged: 2, abandoned: 32, captured: 160)
Armoured Personnel Carriers (89, of which destroyed: 26, damaged: 1, abandoned: 17, captured: 45)
Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) Vehicles (21, of which destroyed: 11, abandoned: 3, captured: 7)
Infantry Mobility Vehicles (83, of which destroyed: 48, damaged: 2, abandoned: 5, captured: 26)
Communications Stations (19, of which destroyed: 8, abandoned: 5, captured: 6)
Engineering Vehicles And Equipment (91, of which destroyed: 28, abandoned: 15, captured: 43)
Heavy Mortars (11, of which destroyed: 3, captured: 8)
Towed Artillery (52, of which destroyed: 10, damaged: 4, abandoned: 5, captured: 33)
Self-Propelled Artillery (84, of which destroyed: 30, damaged: 3, abandoned: 15, captured: 35)
Multiple Rocket Launchers (48, of which destroyed: 21, abandoned: 5, captured: 23)
Anti-Aircraft Guns (3, of which captured: 3)
Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Guns (13, of which destroyed: 5, abandoned: 3, captured: 5)
Surface-To-Air Missile Systems (51, of which destroyed: 25, damaged: 1, abandoned: 7, captured: 18)
Radars (9, of which destroyed: 3, captured: 6)
Jammers And Deception Systems (6, of which destroyed: 2, damaged: 2, captured: 2)
Aircraft (20, of which destroyed: 19, damaged: 1)
Helicopters (32, of which destroyed: 28, damaged: 2, abandoned: 1, captured: 1)
Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (22, of which destroyed: 15, captured: 7)
Naval Ships (3, of which destroyed: 1, damaged: 2
Logistics Trains (2, of which destroyed: 2)
Trucks, Vehicles and Jeeps (728, of which destroyed: 430, damaged: 14, abandoned: 61, captured: 223)

Ukraine vehicle losses
Total: 692, of which: destroyed: 306, damaged: 24, abandoned: 37, captured: 325
Tanks (95, of which destroyed: 38, damaged: 2, abandoned: 9, captured: 44)
Armoured Fighting Vehicles (64, of which destroyed: 26, abandoned: 4, captured: 35)
Infantry Fighting Vehicles (74, of which destroyed: 32, damaged: 3, abandoned: 9, captured: 30)
Armoured Personnel Carriers (32, of which destroyed: 6, damaged: 1, abandoned: 2, captured: 22)
Infantry Mobility Vehicles (49, of which destroyed: 15, damaged: 1, abandoned: 1, captured: 32)
Engineering Vehicles (9, of which destroyed: 2, captured: 7)
Towed Artillery (25, of which destroyed: 8, damaged: 3, abandoned: 3, captured: 11)
Self-Propelled Artillery (20, of which destroyed: 8, damaged: 4, abandoned: 1, captured: 7)
Multiple Rocket Launchers (15, of which destroyed: 10, captured: 5)
Anti-Aircraft Guns (2, of which captured: 2)
Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Guns (1, of which captured: 1)
Surface-To-Air Missile Systems (38, of which destroyed: 32, abandoned: 1, captured: 5)
Radars And Communications Equipment (17, of which destroyed: 9, damaged: 3, abandoned: 1, captured: 4)
Aircraft (15, of which destroyed: 14, damaged: 1)
Helicopters (3, of which destroyed: 2, captured: 1)
Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (12, of which destroyed: 10, captured: 2)
Naval Ships (15, of which destroyed: 2, damaged: 1, captured: 12)
Trucks, Vehicles and Jeeps (206, of which destroyed: 79, damaged: 5, abandoned: 5, captured: 117)

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1291 on: April 07, 2022, 11:29:17 AM »
I would take any published loses numbers with a rather large grain of salt
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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1292 on: April 07, 2022, 11:31:05 AM »
I would take any published numbers with a rather large grain of salt

Oryx only counts unique photos.  So arguably, their numbers are conservative, if anything.
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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1293 on: April 07, 2022, 11:47:17 AM »
Oryx only counts unique photos.  So arguably, their numbers are conservative, if anything.
Right. It is still possible that some are double counted. For instance, blurry video shows a tank getting hit, later a picture is taken of the wreck.

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1294 on: April 07, 2022, 01:35:39 PM »


You’ll note that from WWII to now only Western/Allied nations have paid any attention to “rules of war”. The Germans and Soviets (against each other) didn’t, the Japanese certainly did not, the North Koreans and Chinese didn’t, the Vietnamese didn’t, and the Screaming Beard nations obviously don’t.  AFAIK, only Western/Allied nations routinely prosecuted their own war criminals, the others didn't unless they lost and were occupied.


If you've got enough in common to have rules of war you both agree to, then chances are you can find a better way to resolve the conflict than a war anyways.

Note that there are no Western-on-Western conflicts since the inception of the 1949 Geneva Conventions.  How would you classify the Falklands war between Britain and Argentina? Or the more minor conflicts in Panama and Grenada?  The conflicts that become wars now are because the world is shrinking, technology brings incompatible cultures closer to each other, and when the value systems clash there will also be one party that doesn't care about the Geneva Conventions, or one party that has a different idea of what a moral war should be like.

That and the Geneva Conventions are effectively a trap anyways, for the vast majority of the civilian world.  Half the time the combating forces won't adhere to them, then there's the other times where the supposedly adhering forces will try to ignore them anyways, like Bush and Rumsfeld did with Gitmo, going so far as to label US Citizens as unlawful enemy combatants and unilaterally declaring those citizens as members of a State-defined terrorist organization.  There's absolutely no potential for governmental abuse there, right?  /s
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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1295 on: April 07, 2022, 02:19:02 PM »
Looks like the Russians are making some progress in the east

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1296 on: April 07, 2022, 02:41:27 PM »
I wonder what kind of fatalities the Ukrainian military has taken.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1297 on: April 07, 2022, 05:56:50 PM »
Supposedly in Ukraine, but I can't confirm:

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1298 on: April 07, 2022, 06:27:52 PM »
Supposedly in Ukraine, but I can't confirm:



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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1299 on: April 07, 2022, 07:18:55 PM »
Heavy machinery losses, Tax write off?
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