Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 136881 times)

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2825 on: September 23, 2023, 08:15:05 PM »
. . .
Hopefully this doesn't come home to roost the way the Mujahedeen did.
We may not be on the best of terms with Ukraine in 10 years if things go sideways, but we still have more in common culturally with a country that's nearly 90% Christian rather than Moslem.

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Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2826 on: September 23, 2023, 08:41:42 PM »
The things the US did are absolutely not "SOP". They are unconstitutional and close to, if not actually, war crimes. And would have been war crimes if we were the losers.

War crimes are SOP when a country is being invaded.  If the Ukrainians are bad guys in the conflict because of these things, then so was the USA in WW2.

dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2827 on: September 23, 2023, 09:16:18 PM »
We may not be on the best of terms with Ukraine in 10 years if things go sideways, but we still have more in common culturally with a country that's nearly 90% Christian rather than Moslem.

Two points:

1. One of the things arming and training the Muj did was allow them to take over Afghanistan.  Afghanistan was nowhere near as militantly Muslim in the early 80s.  There are some fringe Ukrainian groups getting a ton of training and weapons right now.  Bears keeping an eye on.

2. What percentage Christian was Germany in 1932? (I know, Ukraine isn't anything close to the industrial powerhouse Germany was, but the point stands that relying on a shared religion can go bad.)

Not saying there's 100% going to be a problem, but this strategy has backfired in the past and assuming countries that have just been decimated buy war won't radically change is not a great plan.

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2828 on: September 23, 2023, 10:53:25 PM »
The veil that made the Ukrainians the good guys has simply fallen from my face. There are no good guys here. I repeat, it is IMO, a bullshit war.
As far as the Ukrainians not being good guys, what does that mean?  Australia went absolutely statist nuts during Covid, but if China invaded them tomorrow they would still be the relatively good guys.  Ultimately they are the victims in this conflict.

Yeah, it is a bullshit war, but it is also not the first time in recent memory Russia has decided to re-USSR some land. Georgia, Crimea, now Ukraine as a whole. I don’t know when Putin will decide that he has grabbed enough, but I’m not sure that shrugging and letting him snatch up Ukraine is likely to have caused him to stop.

My major concern with the war was that it could lead to losing US troops in combat and/or a nuclear exchange. If those can be avoided, and if Russian warfighting capacity can be drastically reduced through intel, weaponry, cash, and training then maybe this prevents a future Article 5 response to a Polish invasion or something.  Or maybe not.

I don’t have the answers myself, but it sometimes seems that by saying “we shouldn’t help a corrupt government defend themselves” we are also saying “so we should totally let a corrupt government invade their neighbor again and grow stronger.” 

Hawkmoon

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2829 on: September 24, 2023, 12:43:25 AM »
I'm inclined to regard this as a "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of situation.

I am also concerned that Putin won't live forever, and odds are that whoever replaces him may be significantly worse. For that reason alone, IMHO it is the our advantage and the world's advantage if Russia can be stopped and Ukraine's territorial integrity restored before Putin's successor takes office.
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K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2830 on: September 24, 2023, 06:34:37 AM »
My biggest concern with not supporting Ukraine is two fold:

1. Putin decides that yeah, Ukraine is now his, so Poland or the Baltic States should return to the fold because the world won't try to do anything about it. That would kick off World War III.

2. China, emboldened by US/NATO inactivity, decides the time is ripe to grab Taiwan. Hello World War III.

China is also getting a front seat view of just how effective Western weapons systems are, as well, and how badly the supposedly "second most powerful military in the world," is being handled by a much smaller nation armed with those weapons that I really think it has cooled some of their expansionist ardor.

A few days ago I read a very interesting, but rather horrifying, short story by Jack London. Written in 1910, the Unparalleled Invasion recounts the rise of China. First Japan, after the Russo-Japanese war attempts to invade China and is beaten into submission, never rising to become the world power that it did in the 1920s through 1940s.

Then China begins semi-passively invading other nations and spreading out and, essentially, becomes an unstoppable force.

Until a scientist in the United States comes up with a plan, and the rest of the world signs on.

Essentially, the world unites to cordon off China both on land and at sea and then overflies the nation and institutes unrestricted biological warfare. Plague, anthrax, yellow fever, etc., are dropped on China, killing hundreds of millions and causing an almost complete collapse of the Chinese economy and civilization.

Really, really *expletive deleted*ed up when you think about it, and highly indicative of the burgeoning fear of "The Yellow Peril" that was rising at that time.
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HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2831 on: September 24, 2023, 07:32:58 AM »
Two points:

1. One of the things arming and training the Muj did was allow them to take over Afghanistan.  Afghanistan was nowhere near as militantly Muslim in the early 80s.  There are some fringe Ukrainian groups getting a ton of training and weapons right now.  Bears keeping an eye on.

2. What percentage Christian was Germany in 1932? (I know, Ukraine isn't anything close to the industrial powerhouse Germany was, but the point stands that relying on a shared religion can go bad.)

Not saying there's 100% going to be a problem, but this strategy has backfired in the past and assuming countries that have just been decimated buy war won't radically change is not a great plan.
1. Keeping an eye on things makes sense. We should be monitoring more closely who's getting the weapons and - especially - where our cash is ending up. Too many people here are what I would term "militantly incurious" about this, especially where the cash is concerned.

2. Germany caused problems, we allied ourselves with an evil empire that with pogroms, purges, and collectivization murdered 3x as many people as died in German death camps. Germany is now an ally, our former ally is now an adversary. Go figure.

I don't know what's going to happen - a wise man once said that it's hard to make predictions, especially about the future.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2832 on: September 24, 2023, 08:16:12 AM »
2. Germany caused problems, we allied ourselves with an evil empire that with pogroms, purges, and collectivization murdered 3x as many people as died in German death camps. Germany is now an ally, our former ally is now an adversary. Go figure.

This is more food for thought. Not like we'll ever be good friends with the current Russian regime, but like Germany, fifty years from now we may be good friends with a new Russian regime and wondering what to do about the terrorist state of Ukraine.

And I have to say that part of my opinion is more emotional reaction. Lots of countries are helping Ukraine, but we seem to be the only country where it's some kind of a popular party with everyone switching their lgbt flags and pins and stickers for the Ukrainian flag, and also stuff like this:

"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2833 on: September 24, 2023, 10:02:35 AM »
Interesting Tucker interview I read this morning that speaks directly to our official sources of information.
 
Speaking of the media:
Quote
Carlson: Of course they do, because they're terrified. They're just afraid. They go along with it, absolutely. They're afraid to say something that will offend the people who run the government, who run the biggest companies and, most of the time, they won't. And that's not just a perversion of what they should be doing, it's an inversion. They exist to hold the people in power accountable. Instead, they do exactly the opposite. They do their bidding.

For example, they roll out this vaccine in the United States. It has massive consequences for the population. Hundreds of millions of people take it, and no reporting on that vaccine – no real reporting — is allowed. People are, literally, fired from their jobs if they'd question the efficacy and the safety of that vaccine. That's insane. In a functioning democracy, if you had a mandatory drug where everyone's required to take it, the news media’s job would be to report out whether or not it's safe and whether or not it works. They did just the opposite.

Even the war in Ukraine. This is potentially a nuclear conflict between superpowers. Shouldn't we know all that we can? “No.” You're not allowed.

I tried to interview Vladimir Putin, and the US government stopped me. So, think about that for a minute. By the way, nobody defended me. I don't think there was anybody in the news media who said, “Wait a second. I may not like this guy, but he has a right to interview anyone he wants, and we have a right to hear what Putin says.” You're not allowed to hear Putin's voice. Because why? There was no vote on it. No one asked me. I'm 54 years old. I've paid my taxes and followed the law.

I'm an American citizen. I'm a much more loyal American than, say, Joe Biden or Kamala Harris, who didn't even grow up in this country; she grew up in Canada. And they're telling me what it is to be a loyal American? I'm just not even interested, at this point. I don't even care. When David Frum [a staff writer for The Atlantic magazine] from Canada gets to tell me that I'm a disloyal American, it's a joke. It's a joke. And I don't care what they think, actually, anymore. And I don't have to care. So, I don't.

The whole thing is a pretty good read. Of course Tuck has his own agenda ... but i think it aligns a little better with our view of things.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/our-system-collapsing-real-time-tucker-carlson-gives-bombshell-interview
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K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2834 on: September 24, 2023, 11:48:23 AM »
Your friend today doesn't mean he/she/it will be your friend tomorrow.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2835 on: September 24, 2023, 01:21:12 PM »
Your friend today doesn't mean he/she/it will be your friend tomorrow.

On a related note just got an e-mail titled Hot Russian Ladies
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MillCreek

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2836 on: September 24, 2023, 02:18:02 PM »
On a related note just got an e-mail titled Hot Russian Ladies

There is probably a higher chance that they are actual biological females.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2837 on: September 24, 2023, 02:25:51 PM »
There is probably a higher chance that they are actual biological females.

Assuming it's not a Biden admin trap.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2838 on: September 24, 2023, 02:27:02 PM »
Really, really *expletive deleted*ed up when you think about it, and highly indicative of the burgeoning fear of "The Yellow Peril" that was rising at that time.

So you're saying they were prescient in 1910?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2839 on: September 24, 2023, 02:31:10 PM »
Your friend today doesn't mean he/she/it will be your friend tomorrow.

I didn't even suggest anything to the contrary.
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2840 on: September 24, 2023, 03:16:47 PM »
“America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests”
― Henry Kissinger
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2841 on: September 24, 2023, 05:06:05 PM »
I didn't even suggest anything to the contrary.

I wasn't addressing comments from any individual. Just the tenor of some of the comments in general.
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2842 on: September 25, 2023, 09:00:49 AM »
And here is where we end up. Canada's Parliament gives a standing ovation to a NAZI.  Not a "you said something that annoyed a gender studies major" NAZI, but an actual, jack boots, SS NAZI.

https://x.com/UnityNewsNet/status/1705841969845403788?s=20

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2843 on: September 25, 2023, 09:08:52 AM »
And here is where we end up. Canada's Parliament gives a standing ovation to a NAZI.  Not a "you said something that annoyed a gender studies major" NAZI, but an actual, jack boots, SS NAZI.

https://x.com/UnityNewsNet/status/1705841969845403788?s=20

Wasn't Trump so nothing to see here.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2844 on: September 25, 2023, 03:02:52 PM »
 :rofl:

Quote
The Amazing Zoltan
@AmazingZoltan
I captured the precise moment the Liberal House Speaker realized that he accidentally invited a literal World War II Nazi veteran to the Canadian Parliament as his honoured guest.
https://twitter.com/AmazingZoltan/status/1706133388657311970?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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MillCreek

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2845 on: September 25, 2023, 03:21:12 PM »
^^^https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUZiUORi3uQ
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2846 on: September 25, 2023, 08:17:12 PM »
Quote
Benny Johnson
@bennyjohnson
Justin Trudeau is now blaming the fact that he and Zelenskyy honored a literal Nazi with a standing ovation before parliament on “Russian Disinformation”
https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1706386691538202994

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Angel Eyes

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2847 on: September 26, 2023, 01:25:14 PM »
"End of quote.  Repeat the line."
  - Joe 'Ron Burgundy' Biden

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2848 on: September 26, 2023, 03:22:06 PM »
:rofl:

Quote
The Amazing Zoltan
@AmazingZoltan
I captured the precise moment the Liberal House Speaker realized that he accidentally invited a literal World War II Nazi veteran to the Canadian Parliament as his honoured guest.
https://twitter.com/AmazingZoltan/status/1706133388657311970?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw


But wait, there more

Quote
    Poland wants to extradite the Nazi who received a standing ovation in Canada’s parliament. The Trudeau government has finally succeeded in making me embarrassed to be a Canadian. https://t.co/fO7fVHIRIe
    — Norman Levine (@NormanLevine100) September 26, 2023

Quote
    🚨BREAKING: Canadian House Speaker Anthony Rota resigns after honoring Yaroslav Hunka, a Nazi who fought with the 14th division of the Waffen SS against the Russians in Ukraine in WWll with a standing ovation during a visit by Volodomyr Zelenskyy

    pic.twitter.com/dqcbtL7R6j
    — Benny Johnson (@bennyjohnson) September 26, 2023

Fall guy for Justin

BREAKING: Canadian Speaker steps DOWN amid Ukrainian Nazi controversy
https://twitchy.com/coucy/2023/09/26/canadian-speaker-steps-down-n2387773
« Last Edit: September 26, 2023, 03:34:35 PM by WLJ »
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2849 on: September 26, 2023, 06:51:19 PM »
Trudeau Attempts To Distract From Nazi Controversy By Growing Cool New Mustache
https://babylonbee.com/news/trudeau-attempts-to-distract-from-nazi-controversy-by-growing-cool-new-mustache
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes