Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 137138 times)

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3025 on: February 19, 2024, 09:11:10 AM »
Interesting Garand Thumb video:

https://youtu.be/Tge7YMi4gJs

It's a long one and I haven't watched the whole thing yet. One interesting tidbit in the drone section is that shotguns are apparently making a battlespace comeback for use in taking out FPV drones.
The Ukrainian channel I follow on Telegram regularly has videos from drones dropping contact grenades on troops that are not under cover.  I guess everyone has seen similar.  It strikes me as pretty scary especially when the drones are moving around at night with night vision cameras.  I have assumed better short range anti-air and detection would be a big priority for the US.  Most all I ever heard about prior to this were missile based systems. 

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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3026 on: February 19, 2024, 09:15:12 AM »
The Ukrainian channel I follow on Telegram regularly has videos from drones dropping contact grenades on troops that are not under cover.  I guess everyone has seen similar.  It strikes me as pretty scary especially when the drones are moving around at night with night vision cameras.  I have assumed better short range anti-air and detection would be a big priority for the US.  Most all I ever heard about prior to this were missile based systems.

Funny and not funny at the same time seeing drone video from one of a solider trying to run away from it as it's chasing him
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Blakenzy

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3027 on: February 19, 2024, 03:08:01 PM »
Can't run, can't really hide form the sneaky buggers. I can only imagine the PTSD trigger that vloggers with drones will be for the veterans of the Ukraine war.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

French G.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3028 on: February 19, 2024, 03:18:24 PM »
The Ukrainian channel I follow on Telegram regularly has videos from drones dropping contact grenades on troops that are not under cover.  I guess everyone has seen similar.  It strikes me as pretty scary especially when the drones are moving around at night with night vision cameras.  I have assumed better short range anti-air and detection would be a big priority for the US.  Most all I ever heard about prior to this were missile based systems.
They have upgrades now, off the shelf drones delivering anti tank mines and rpg warheads. I wish I had the money for some of the big ag drones, get ahead of the learning curve. Our CWII gonna be wild.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3029 on: February 19, 2024, 08:02:06 PM »
What experts are you talking about?  I have heard a lot of people mentioning that Russia is more than willing to burn men in this conflict.  I can't think of an expert worth the designation that has claimed otherwise ...
Sure looks like more Ukrainians are dying than Russians. I'm not confident our experts were planning for large deployments of western troops. If we were, we dilly dallied so long we'll be going up against well entrenched battle hardened troops. If the plan was to get a bunch of military aged Ukrainians killed and let the eastern part of the country get turned into rubble it's been a smashing success. I'm not very confident about the outcomes here if this is a matter resolve. I think, from my vantage point of limited information, some serious miscalculations occurred on our side. Starting with our whole policy over there of trying to bring them into western orbit.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3030 on: February 19, 2024, 08:26:08 PM »
I think the plan was to get a bunch of military age Russians killed, *expletive deleted*ck up a bunch of their equipment,  and hamper their ability to sell arms and oil/gas outside of the Iran/China/ N. Korea axis.  How many Ukrainians it cost does not seem to have been part of the calculus.

Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3031 on: February 19, 2024, 09:00:23 PM »
Starting with our whole policy over there of trying to bring them into western orbit.

It's something that's not talked about enough regarding our involvement and responsibility in all this. Someone can correct me, but as I understand it, going back even farther than us helping to get a comedian elected President in Ukraine, Russia's ongoing beef with us is that we made a promise to them that as part of the deal for the Berlin Wall coming down and the dissolution of the USSR, NATO would not be going one centimeter further East.

Obviously now the talk is that we made no such pledge, and it's just crazy Putin making things up. Or that "we never really said "pledge", we just said we'd consider it". However doing my own reading, it appears it was a key, if not the key, to turning Gorbachev. I just can't see them agreeing to dissolve the USSR at that time in cold war history and saying "sure, bring NATO on over, we don't mind".
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sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3032 on: February 19, 2024, 09:41:13 PM »
Partly (mostly?) it's a matter of Russia being very vulnerable to outside aggressors because their geography is very difficult to defend especially with widely distributed population.  When the ussr controlled the Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, Romania, etc they had geography they could effectively defend.  Having an arch nemesis allied with all those countries is, not irrationally, thought to be a serious threat to their security. Those same countries though remember how shitty Russian rulers have been to them and prefer American security guarantees.

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3033 on: February 19, 2024, 10:27:49 PM »
Sure looks like more Ukrainians are dying than Russians. I'm not confident our experts were planning for large deployments of western troops. If we were, we dilly dallied so long we'll be going up against well entrenched battle hardened troops. If the plan was to get a bunch of military aged Ukrainians killed and let the eastern part of the country get turned into rubble it's been a smashing success. I'm not very confident about the outcomes here if this is a matter resolve. I think, from my vantage point of limited information, some serious miscalculations occurred on our side. Starting with our whole policy over there of trying to bring them into western orbit.
I have no clue who is losing more men. Nor, I would guess, do you. As someone who is always bemoaning the contamination of news with propaganda, I would hope you are aware that just because you are getting propaganda from another side doesn’t make it truth.

Your initial claim was that the experts didn’t foresee that Russians would be willing to bleed to achieve their goal, which was nonsense.

So far western forces have mostly avoided direct conflict with Russia (at least at any scale). I’m not convinced that it is inevitable.

Finally, if NATO were to enter a conflict with Russia tomorrow, do you really think that Russians would be better prepared after two years of losing men and equipment? I don’t buy it. Ukraine may not be winning, but neither is Russia.

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3034 on: February 20, 2024, 12:08:07 AM »
I figure I am getting propaganda from everyone.  The one Telegram channel I follow is pro-Ukrainian.  I was trying to follow a Russian guy, but the majority of his posts were just pro-Russian rants. 

I believe we have been touching on the subject of the US taking some of the blame for provoking the Russian invasion.  I hope all the facts come out sooner rather than later about all that was going on. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3035 on: February 20, 2024, 06:00:17 AM »
There is also a distinction between explanation and justification. I think US and Ukrainian actions might explain the invasion, but I do not believe they justify it. 

I believe there are also a lot of stated causes (fear of NATO, Nazis, protecting ethnic Russians, western election interference, etc) that are merely pretexts for the underlying financial reasons for the war.

Blakenzy

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3036 on: February 20, 2024, 06:08:48 AM »
The only information that seems reliable are the territorial gains and losses that are seen on the many detailed public maps out there. When most of them coincide on a change I take it as real. Right now Ukrainians are falling back across the entire front line.

Also there are many reports that Russia's military industrial base has expanded output significantly (to the point NATO can't keep up as is) and the military itself having gone through their baptism of fire is probably more solid now than it was at the beginning of the invasion, so it seems that plans to attrite Russia into submission by throwing Ukrainians at them haven't tuned out so well, quite the opposite.

Aaaand the other big blunder no one really talks about is the damage done to the monopoly of the US dollar and the US financial system by weaponizing it to ruin Russia. Now many countries distrust it and the work towards a parallel reserve currency is stronger. It's just a matter of time.

Re-reading Washington's farewell address would be nice right about now.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3037 on: February 20, 2024, 06:49:43 AM »
Like Blakenzy posted above, we have a pretty accurate idea how things are going based upon who "controls" what territory.

Russia "running out of troops" may turn out to be the same as "Russia is running out of artillery shells", that didn't pan out did it?

The western experts mocked or discounted the Russians for their propensity to wage war of attrition. It appears to me, as a non expert, that they thought NATO weapon systems (and maybe NATO tactics) would prevail against Russian tactics and artillery.

Maybe our experts have tricked Russia into taking over the eastern side and coasts of Ukraine in some multidimensional chess move? We've got them right where we want them.

As dogmush alluded, Western doctrine seems to be bloody the opposition up, degrade them, then leave the territory of conflict in a state of chaos. It sure doesn't look like winning in the traditional sense. You could call it the "How to get allies killed and lose influence doctrine".   
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3038 on: February 20, 2024, 09:15:45 AM »
The only information that seems reliable are the territorial gains and losses that are seen on the many detailed public maps out there. When most of them coincide on a change I take it as real. Right now Ukrainians are falling back across the entire front line.
From what I can see, there has been almost no shift in territory in either direction over the past couple of months outside the salient of Avdiivka.  You're overstating the case more than a little bit here.

Also there are many reports that Russia's military industrial base has expanded output significantly (to the point NATO can't keep up as is)
More "my propaganda is better than your propaganda"?  The  reports you see about Russia's expanded military capacity come from Russia, directly or indirectly.  Maybe some of it is even true.  Russia may well be producing a lot of stuff, but they're not replacing their equipment losses, especially the modern stuff.  Russia has not fielded 60+ year old tanks because they've got so many brand new ones running out of their ears.

In case you've forgotten, this is Russia.  Against Ukraine.  Simply the fact that we're two years into this is shocking.
... and the military itself having gone through their baptism of fire is probably more solid now than it was at the beginning of the invasion ...
This contains a grain of truth and a ton of falsehood.  Yes, I bet the surviving troops are significantly more combat hardened than the troops that started the invasion.  Taken as a whole, I do no think the Russian military has been strengthened by two years of Ukrainian conflict.

Russia "running out of troops" may turn out to be the same as "Russia is running out of artillery shells", that didn't pan out did it?
I think the significant point is whether or not Russia has run out of troops or artillery shells, but that in two years all the Russian troops and artillery shells they could muster has been insufficient to overcome a single, much smaller, neighboring country.

The western experts mocked or discounted the Russians for their propensity to wage war of attrition.
Clearly we read different sources as I don't recall this.  Don't get me wrong, the experts have been wrong time and again.  Initially, nearly everyone was predicting a quick win by Russia.  This did not come to pass. 

Obviously the better experts to listen to would be the Russian ones, who I'm sure have made no missteps regarding their assessments of this conflict.

As dogmush alluded, Western doctrine seems to be bloody the opposition up, degrade them, then leave the territory of conflict in a state of chaos. It sure doesn't look like winning in the traditional sense. You could call it the "How to get allies killed and lose influence doctrine".   
Yes, I largely agree with dogmush's analysis.

I'm frankly ambivalent on the moral and strategic nature of the Ukraine war, however it is important to keep in mind that the alternative of having Ukraine as an ally is having Ukraine as a puppet of Russia.  If your preferred strategy is to let Russia take over Ukraine either by political manipulation or military force, we're still losing influence and allies, aren't we?

Moral or not, if Russia conquers Ukraine now, they have bloodied each other and reduced each other's capabilities significantly.  Russia has lost a huge number of men and equipment.  You and Blakenzy can pretend that is positive for Russia if you want, but I don't buy it for a second. 

Ukraine has lost a huge number of men and equipment.  If Russia conquers them after this protracted, violent struggle then the end result is two opponents, both weaker than when they started.

Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3039 on: February 20, 2024, 10:11:38 AM »
Partly (mostly?) it's a matter of Russia being very vulnerable to outside aggressors because their geography is very difficult to defend especially with widely distributed population. 

Yeah.  You would figure that Russia might consider that it would enhance their security to be bordered by friends, rather than enemies that hate them though.  But I guess that would be too much to expect.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3040 on: February 20, 2024, 10:28:32 AM »
Yeah.  You would figure that Russia might consider that it would enhance their security to be bordered by friends, rather than enemies that hate them though.  But I guess that would be too much to expect.

Maybe they should stop treating them like enemies. Nearly everyone around them they've occupied at one time or other and you can't expect people to forget that and threatening them isn't helping them forget.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 10:41:49 AM by WLJ »
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3041 on: February 20, 2024, 10:44:15 AM »
Meanwhile a Russian helo pilot who defected is found full of holes and run over for good measure in Spain
Guess there were no nearby tall buildings.

Quote
A Russian spy chief has described a helicopter pilot who defected Ukraine and was found shot dead in Spain as a 'moral corpse' for betraying his country, in Moscow's first comment on the case since news of the killing emerged.

Captain Maksim Kuzminov, 28, fled Russia with the help of Ukrainian intelligence services and accused Vladimir Putin of 'genocide' following his daring escape last summer.

Ukrainian GUR military intelligence confirmed yesterday that the pilot - a known target of Russian death squads - had died in Spain, but gave no further details about the circumstances surrounding his death, though Spanish and Ukrainian media reported that he had been living in Spain under a fake name.

His killing is feared to have been a move to settle scores between Russia and Ukraine, which managed to capture a working helicopter when Kuzminov defected

Kremlin spy chief calls defecting Russian helicopter pilot a 'moral corpse' days after he was found 'riddled with bullets' and run over by a car in Spain - amid fears hit squad assassinated him to 'settle scores'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13104393/Kremlin-spy-chief-calls-defecting-Russian-helicopter-pilot-moral-corpse-days-riddled-bullets-run-car-Spain-amid-fears-hit-squad-assassinated-settle-scores.html

Edit: Forgot the link
« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 01:25:03 PM by WLJ »
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MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3042 on: February 20, 2024, 11:04:29 AM »
Europe Goes Nuclear: Is America Leaving NATO? || Peter Zeihan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9-4toma0UE

I thought this was food for thought.  I don't think I agree with all of his opinions on it.  The US staying involved in Europe doesn't eliminate the issues that lead to war in Europe.  That stuff remains under the surface.  Also, we don't get dragged into a European war unless we want to be. 

I didn't know anti-NATO sentiment was big enough to warrant mention.  Wether NATO is really beneficial to us in the long run is worth discussing.  Obviously, if we intend to continue the Imperial US foreign policy of the recent decades, it helps us.  I think that is what most are looking at changing and NATO might not survive that change.
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3043 on: February 20, 2024, 11:16:10 AM »

Also there are many reports that Russia's military industrial base has expanded output significantly (to the point NATO can't keep up as is) and the military itself having gone through their baptism of fire is probably more solid now than it was at the beginning of the invasion, so it seems that plans to attrite Russia into submission by throwing Ukrainians at them haven't tuned out so well, quite the opposite.

The Russian military is not more cabalble now then they were two years ago.  They are out a bunch of trained soldiers, leaders, equipment, and munitions.  Sure, they have some veterans of a very specific kind of static warfare,

They have however lost a bunch of manuver forces, that were also battle tested from the mid-east, and are now dead.  So as far as us being involved, they are measurably weaker in many ways now then they were in 2021.

Opportunity

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3044 on: February 20, 2024, 01:21:31 PM »
Meanwhile a Russian helo pilot who defected is found full of holes and run over for good measure in Spain
Guess there were no nearby tall buildings.

In Russia there is a tough but good saying «Dog's death for a dog» - it suits the situation very well, isn’t it, gentlemen?
P.S. This "Putin-hunted" guy also killed two pilots, in case you weren't aware.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3045 on: February 20, 2024, 01:27:27 PM »
In Russia there is a tough but good saying «Dog's death for a dog» - it suits the situation very well, isn’t it, gentlemen?
P.S. This "Putin-hunted" guy also killed two pilots, in case you weren't aware.

From the link I forgot to put in my post.

Quote
Other members of the air crew died during his defection. Moscow said Kuzminov killed them; he said they panicked and fled, and may have been killed subsequently.

In October, soon after his dramatic defection, there were public death threats against Kuzminov in Russia, with suggestions that Putin's secret services would find and kill him for an ultimate betrayal.

Like a lot coming out of this it's a he said she said situation.
I'm not criticizing one way or another, just posting the event.

The lack of a link has been corrected.
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3046 on: February 20, 2024, 08:18:47 PM »
Quote
I think the significant point is whether or not Russia has run out of troops or artillery shells, but that in two years all the Russian troops and artillery shells they could muster has been insufficient to overcome a single, much smaller, neighboring country.

Single, much smaller, neighboring country ... with billions of dollars of western equipment, western advisers in country and I'm sure continual nonstop information flow from western intelligence and surveillance. Not to mention the full western full court press of economic warfare. I'm not sure any of us have lived through another proxy war that's as obvious as this one. We shouldn't pretend that we're not at war with Russia.
 

Quote
Clearly we read different sources as I don't recall this.  Don't get me wrong, the experts have been wrong time and again.  Initially, nearly everyone was predicting a quick win by Russia.  This did not come to pass.
They predicted a quick win but were wrong? Almost as if they discounted the Russian propensity to wage war of attrition.

Quote
Obviously the better experts to listen to would be the Russian ones, who I'm sure have made no missteps regarding their assessments of this conflict.

It looks to me like both sides misjudged how it was going to play out. (that was a straw man on your part, i never said that)


Quote
I'm frankly ambivalent on the moral and strategic nature of the Ukraine war, however it is important to keep in mind that the alternative of having Ukraine as an ally is having Ukraine as a puppet of Russia.  If your preferred strategy is to let Russia take over Ukraine either by political manipulation or military force, we're still losing influence and allies, aren't we?

Other options were rejected by the west and we installed a puppet regime ourselves instead. Welcome to blowback. That's not propaganda, our "leaders" are on record rejecting anything other than what they dictated.

Quote
Moral or not, if Russia conquers Ukraine now, they have bloodied each other and reduced each other's capabilities significantly.  Russia has lost a huge number of men and equipment.  You and Blakenzy can pretend that is positive for Russia if you want, but I don't buy it for a second. Ukraine has lost a huge number of men and equipment.  If Russia conquers them after this protracted, violent struggle then the end result is two opponents, both weaker than when they started.

I don't see any positives for the west or Russia.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3047 on: February 20, 2024, 10:04:54 PM »
Single, much smaller, neighboring country ... with billions of dollars of western equipment, western advisers in country and I'm sure continual nonstop information flow from western intelligence and surveillance. Not to mention the full western full court press of economic warfare. I'm not sure any of us have lived through another proxy war that's as obvious as this one. We shouldn't pretend that we're not at war with Russia.
It is probably the biggest, but only one of many obvious ones you and I have lived through.
 
They predicted a quick win but were wrong? Almost as if they discounted the Russian propensity to wage war of attrition.
You say that as though Russia wanted to wage a war of attrition.  Thinking that Russia had the capacity to steamroll Ukraine has nothing to do with mocking Russia for being unable to fight a war of attrition. Again, maybe the media you consume was saying that, but I didn’t see that perspective.

Other options were rejected by the west and we installed a puppet regime ourselves instead. Welcome to blowback. That's not propaganda, our "leaders" are on record rejecting anything other than what they dictated.
What realistic options were on the table that would have had Ukraine as a western ally?

I don't see any positives for the west or Russia.
If Russia and the US could play well together then I agree. Compared to that, conflict is a terrible cost for all involved.

I don’t see sunshine and roses as attainable with current leadership. Thus, from a cold hearted, Machiavellian perspective, if Russia’s ability to invade and conquer yet another neighbor is weakened through this conflict it may well actually save a shooting war between the US and Russia.  If Russia were to take a run at Norway, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, or Poland, things could get hot very quickly. At least if they pay their NATO bills…

I can certainly argue the opposite side, mostly because of my concern about nuclear war.  But I wouldn’t have guessed we could be two years into such a close and violent proxy war, with such massive Russian casualties without Russia popping off a nuke.

As far as the “yeahbut, NATO expansionism!”, I’d counter that the people who were rightly worried about the Russian invasion chicken had every reason to seek the NATO egg.

Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3048 on: February 25, 2024, 03:04:22 PM »
WHAT?!?

Quote
Justin Trudeau has announced that Canada will be spending $4 million on “Gender-inclusive demining for sustainable futures in Ukraine”.



Guy in the comments is a Hurt Locker kinda guy. He has no idea what they're talking about.

https://twitchy.com/justmindy/2024/02/25/justin-trudeau-canada-ukraine-bomb-mine-gender-n2393303
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3049 on: February 25, 2024, 03:49:47 PM »
They're looking for women who wouldn't mind having their balls blown off
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