Author Topic: Space Radar  (Read 2898 times)

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,986
Space Radar
« on: August 13, 2011, 01:03:00 AM »
This thought is pushed by the S1 finale of Stargate SG1...

... Apophis was dumb to want to orbit the Earth and launch fightercraft at it, or bombard with lasers.  Teh Stoopid.

Any interstellar society should be capable of harnessing chunks of rock and lobbing them in the direction of a target to destroy.  Apophis wanted to destroy Earth.  Not dominate or subjugate.

Yes, it's make-believe sci-fi.  But let's get past that.

Assuming a 21st (or shamefully, even a 22nd) century Earth.  Assuming either an accidental cause, or a malicious one, where a projectile from the Oort cloud is redirected to potentially collide with Earth.

How many radar installations would it take, at what radius from the Sun, to track all irregular vectors that could threaten Earth?  Keeping in mind that the 2D plane of reference of our solar system is not the only plane from which threats might come (include above and below the solar-orbital disc).

And, how much notice would we need to redirect or destroy a kinetic missile 2 miles cubed, given potential tech levels we'd have around the year 2100 (given our current 50 years of space advancement from 1961 to 2011). 


I propose that... given our limited speed of intercept vehicles or destructive payloads, that detection installations would have to be FAR out in our solar system to give ample intercept warning.  And due to the ever increasing surface area of that detection sphere size, we could not manufacture and deploy enough detection installations at that distance to be successful with our interception technology.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 01:19:19 AM by AZRedhawk44 »
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2011, 01:45:39 AM »
And, how much notice would we need to redirect or destroy a kinetic missile 2 miles cubed, given potential tech levels we'd have around the year 2100 (given our current 50 years of space advancement from 1961 to 2011).  

...  

And why wouldn't they toss on a couple dozen, hundred or thousand small reaction motors communicating over mesh network to correct any attempts to divert course?  Smart enough to become multiple kinetic hypervelocity weapons if you blow it into smaller pieces?  Probably want to fracture the thing anyways when one was close enough to the target.  And perhaps similar number of automated weapon systems to pick off folks trying to take out the reaction motors?

Or heck, include a mass driver inside the asteroid to continue firing projectiles at sub-relativistic speed while it does its death run.  Maybe take out the moon with a several hundred thousand ton projectile at a fraction of c to keep us busy while it builds up velocity?

I mean, if you really wanted to go to overkill, you could include small drones that looked like tiny rocks to distribute genetically altered bioweapons to kill off all biological life in case the humans did take out the 2 mile cubed asteroid.  Or generate high intensity radiation inside the upper atmosphere.  Or disrupt our atmosphere in some way, allowing cosmic radiation to fry us or whatnot.  Or detonate in orbit to block out of the sun, and prohibit orbital travel.  Wouldn't even have to detonate it if you make the asteroid out of smart dust or coral.  8 cubical miles of dirt would kinda suck to have in orbit, all traveling at high velocity.   If sufficiently non-magnetic, be hard to clean up.  You wouldn't be worrying about one kinetic weapon, but trillions of them.

All of this is technically within our means today, even if it would be very hideously expensive to implement.  Imagine what you could design with another 90 years of tech.  Some pretty awesome stuff, if you ponder it.  Think smart coral packed with a small ion drive and N5+ explosive payload.  Or some quirk based weapon with massive rad counts.  Or microfactories to produce biological combat systems that self-replicate.

Er.

What?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 01:58:33 AM by RevDisk »
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2011, 06:31:14 AM »


NERDS!

Cromlech

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,402
  • English bloke
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2011, 07:19:05 AM »
NERDS!
Hah.  =D
I'm not smart enough to 'get' everything that will be posted in this thread, but I am a big enough nerd to be interested in it.  :cool:
When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt, run in little circles, wave your arms and shout!

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2011, 08:41:48 AM »


NERDS!

Says the ham radio operator..... :laugh:
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 08:58:58 AM »
Crap, I was going to do actual work today.  Hold on, I'll have an answer for you in a bit :)

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 09:25:26 AM »
Okay, here you go.  We would need to apply a delta-V to the object of about 1m/s to miss earth, assuming we had about 3 months warning (7 million seconds)  Assuming an incoming velocity of 20km/s, thats 140 million km radius (note, earth is about 150 million km from the sun).  To survey that sphere (roughly 10^23 meters square, from a 100m dish would require 60,000 beam-spots.  Since you would want to survey it about once per month, you would need to dwell for about 25*number of radars seconds in each spot.  So you would need 100+ 100m class, high power radars (MW class) to be able to do it.  Well within the tech of today.

Launching the payload right away, using an ATLAS V-552, you could probably deliver 4-5 metric tons of payload, and meet it halfway (so you would need to double the delta-v applied to it).  To deliver 2m/s of delta-v to a mass of 100 trillion kg (a 2km radius rock), that's 200 trillion newton-s.  With normal ablation and reaction, that's a delivered energy of roughly 2e15 joules (roughly a megatons of TNT)...because of various other losses and such, you would probably need 10-20 megatons...which would fit in that payload.

So I think you could do this with today's tech.  Of course, that's just 20 min of thinking, if you want, I could refine the numbers.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,689
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 11:14:57 AM »
. . . given potential tech levels we'd have around the year 2100 (given our current 50 years of space advancement from 1961 to 2011  . . .
Advancement?

In 1961, we could put a man in orbit. A few years later, TWO men in orbit. And eventually, three. Today in 2011 - none. We have no manned spaceflight capability.

In 1969 we could land men on the Moon, and bring them back safely; it's been decades since we lost this capability.

We've collectively made the decision to redirect NASA funding to such worthy projects as welfare, food stamps, EITC, midnight basketball, etc.

At this rate, by 2100, we'll be lucky to have functional telescopes.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 11:49:40 AM »
Why would any advanced alien civilization care about this planet to invest the time and expense to conquer/sterilize/destroy Earth?.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,660
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 02:53:38 PM »
I'm just glad Rev is not an evil alien overlord.  We'd be toast.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Warhorse

  • New Member
  • Posts: 53
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2011, 03:08:26 PM »
I had exactly the same reaction as HankB. At the rate we are going now, we'll be lucky to be able to sustain the ability to launch aircraft, let along any spacecraft within a few years.

I can only hope that I am dead wrong and our country (and the rest of the first world) will be able to straighten itself out and get its act back together before it's too late.


Warhorse
Warhorse

Duty, Honor, Country is NOT out of style!

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2011, 03:52:11 PM »
I'm just glad Rev is not an evil alien overlord.  We'd be toast.

Don't worry, rev and I are going to team up.

No wait, worry more.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2011, 05:06:48 PM »
Okay, here you go.  We would need to apply a delta-V to the object of about 1m/s to miss earth, assuming we had about 3 months warning (7 million seconds)  Assuming an incoming velocity of 20km/s, thats 140 million km radius (note, earth is about 150 million km from the sun).  To survey that sphere (roughly 10^23 meters square, from a 100m dish would require 60,000 beam-spots.  Since you would want to survey it about once per month, you would need to dwell for about 25*number of radars seconds in each spot.  So you would need 100+ 100m class, high power radars (MW class) to be able to do it.  Well within the tech of today.

Launching the payload right away, using an ATLAS V-552, you could probably deliver 4-5 metric tons of payload, and meet it halfway (so you would need to double the delta-v applied to it).  To deliver 2m/s of delta-v to a mass of 100 trillion kg (a 2km radius rock), that's 200 trillion newton-s.  With normal ablation and reaction, that's a delivered energy of roughly 2e15 joules (roughly a megatons of TNT)...because of various other losses and such, you would probably need 10-20 megatons...which would fit in that payload.

So I think you could do this with today's tech.  Of course, that's just 20 min of thinking, if you want, I could refine the numbers.

I was going to say about the ablation/reaction, would 10-20 megaton surface detonation be sufficient?  I'd have a hard time calculating the efficiency of that.  One would obviously give one's best guess, and then provide a healthy   You'd obviously be able to increase it by tamping or burrowing into the surface.

You'd want to go with surface detonation instead of continuous push ion drives?   Don't get me wrong, nukes are always the preferred answer, but I'm curious to your reasoning.



Advancement?

In 1961, we could put a man in orbit. A few years later, TWO men in orbit. And eventually, three. Today in 2011 - none. We have no manned spaceflight capability.

In 1969 we could land men on the Moon, and bring them back safely; it's been decades since we lost this capability.

We've collectively made the decision to redirect NASA funding to such worthy projects as welfare, food stamps, EITC, midnight basketball, etc.

At this rate, by 2100, we'll be lucky to have functional telescopes.

US citizens and US corporations are taking to the Heavens.  I have significantly greater faith in them than I ever did in NASA.



I'm just glad Rev is not an evil alien overlord.  We'd be toast.

Er.  So it is a good thing I didn't detail the micro biotech factory idea?  

Say cranking out original, analogs or modified spiders, ants, wasps, etc that provide tailored toxins, venom, enzymes and respond with high aggression to human pheromones?  Imagine if every insect you saw was specifically designed to be highly lethal to you, and go absolutely berserk at the sight/smell of you in a way that would make killer bees cringe.  Drop a dozen or a hundred of these biofactories into atmosphere...   And well, humanity would be extinct within months.



Don't worry, rev and I are going to team up.

No wait, worry more.

Don't worry, it's not really scary until either (or both) of us say "Hold my drink and watch this!"


NERDS!

True, true.  However, this is 21st century.   Nerds control the most lethal weapon systems thus developed by humanity.  Just sayin'. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 05:10:35 PM by RevDisk »
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2011, 05:54:39 PM »
Actually I did make an error in the yield required (see below).  The reason I went with nukes is the mass of the system to be delivered is small, and the thrust is instantaneous...since the base problem is detection at a range useful, in order to keep the radars reasonable, you need a big push.  (I was trying to see if all aspects could be dome with current tech).  The issue with continuous thrust is the system is heavy (roughly 3-5kg/kw for advanced nuclear...my design holds the record) yielding about 10-20mN of thrust...so you would need far more warning (5-10 years) to make it work...with heavy lift launchers you could reduce that to under a year, but then you would still need to detect the rock 6+ AU out.

Note, I assumed this was an attack rock, so it was coming in on a highly elliptical orbit from the kuiper/Oort clouds.  For a NEA or something else (eg non-weapon) the problem is much simpler, as the orbits are predictable, and the rock is nearby, simplifying tracking.

Optical telescopes would be better than radar, and since it would take decades to reach earth from even the kuiper belt, you would have more than enough time to detect and affect it.  Also, the yield required decreases if you go nuke as you get more and more warning--new horizons could have carried the required payload if we were able to engage it more than a year out (a few hundred kT).

Now, if it was truly a hypervelocity (e.g. Near c) impactor (see the space marines novels as an example)...the effects are much worse...even a few hundred tons of gravel at 0.99c would sterilize earth (an effective yield of a few 10's of TERATONS of TNT equivalent).  And there is virtually no defense, as you couldn't see it coming in time (if you detected it at Pluto, you would have maybe minutes of warning).  However, such weapons are WAY beyond current tech...though represent the ultimate in destructive power.

Also, I went with a near surface detonation to ensure the whole rock is moved--subsurface could result in substantial chunks on the original course--also, if the density were a lot lower (cometary for example), the ablation method would be even more effective and not pulverize the object.

Ideal would be (for the original problem discussed size) several 10's of 10MT class weapons detonated about 400-500m down...that's enough yield to pulverize the entire thing to dust/gravel ensuring burn up, AMD thus could be done a lot later...but would require drilling, etc.

Oh, for the ablation calc--the impulse efficiency of vaporization is typically about 1MJ of delivered energy equals about 20-100Ns of impulse (for microsecond pulses).  This can be increased by lengthening the pulse and really improved by using two or more nukes, one to preheat/pre vaporize the surface, the second to heat that larger mass to stretch out the pulse--possibly yielding a 10-20x or more improvement. A megaton is about 5 billion MJ, or a delivered impulse of (assuming the multi-stage method) 100-500 billion Ns and 1-10 trillion Ns per megaton--so you would need 20-200 megatons, hence my 10-20 requirement (as I was pretty conservative on the mass calcs--a cometary body would probably only need 10)

The best possible method would again be the deep pulverization method, but that requires drilling and such--I'd much rather send multiple bomb-craft that are lighter...that way if one or more fail, you can still get the mission done, and more only helps.   Anyway, a full discussion is the stuff of theses...and there have been quite a few.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2011, 05:58:45 PM »
Not only do nerds control the weapon systems...we are the only ones who know how to build them.

I like your tailored bio-factory...and while the mad scientist in me sees the intrigue and horror of the results...you can't beat the efficiency of nuclear weapons.  Yes, 10-20kg of anthrax spores can kill millions, but a 100kg of nuclear weapon can do the same...and it's cheaper and easier to get and more reliable.

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2011, 10:30:01 PM »
Why would any advanced alien civilization care about this planet to invest the time and expense to conquer/sterilize/destroy Earth?.....

It could be a very cold calculated expression of game-theory that has as it's final answer, "better safe than sorry".

However, the converse may just as well be true. Game theory may well dictate that scrupulously peaceful coexistence be the rule of the Universe, because if you do any relativistic kinetic-ing of anybody, odds are someone older, tougher, and more advanced than YOU is watching, and now they KNOW that you are a threat because you've proven it.

Although, just my gut feeling, that while Galaxies and the Universe is just to large and too old not to have other life in it, and other sentient/sapient technological tool-using life, the distances in space and time that separate them, combined with exponential self-reinforcing technological growth mean that races that "make it" probably evolve into paradigms of existence that make many notions about attack and defense, or coexistence irrelevant as we can conceive of them.
I promise not to duck.

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2011, 11:11:04 PM »
Why would any advanced alien civilization care about this planet to invest the time and expense to conquer/sterilize/destroy Earth?.....

Well DUH!
To make way for a hyper-spatial bypass of course.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2011, 11:11:46 PM »
What is the appropriate present participle conjugation of "to sterilize with multiple near-c impactors"?  Relativistic kinetic-ing just doesn't have a good ring to it.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2011, 11:14:09 PM »
Actually I did make an error in the yield required (see below).  The reason I went with nukes is the mass of the system to be delivered is small, and the thrust is instantaneous...since the base problem is detection at a range useful, in order to keep the radars reasonable, you need a big push.  (I was trying to see if all aspects could be dome with current tech).  The issue with continuous thrust is the system is heavy (roughly 3-5kg/kw for advanced nuclear...my design holds the record) yielding about 10-20mN of thrust...so you would need far more warning (5-10 years) to make it work...with heavy lift launchers you could reduce that to under a year, but then you would still need to detect the rock 6+ AU out.

Note, I assumed this was an attack rock, so it was coming in on a highly elliptical orbit from the kuiper/Oort clouds.  For a NEA or something else (eg non-weapon) the problem is much simpler, as the orbits are predictable, and the rock is nearby, simplifying tracking.

Optical telescopes would be better than radar, and since it would take decades to reach earth from even the kuiper belt, you would have more than enough time to detect and affect it.  Also, the yield required decreases if you go nuke as you get more and more warning--new horizons could have carried the required payload if we were able to engage it more than a year out (a few hundred kT).

Now, if it was truly a hypervelocity (e.g. Near c) impactor (see the space marines novels as an example)...the effects are much worse...even a few hundred tons of gravel at 0.99c would sterilize earth (an effective yield of a few 10's of TERATONS of TNT equivalent).  And there is virtually no defense, as you couldn't see it coming in time (if you detected it at Pluto, you would have maybe minutes of warning).  However, such weapons are WAY beyond current tech...though represent the ultimate in destructive power.

Also, I went with a near surface detonation to ensure the whole rock is moved--subsurface could result in substantial chunks on the original course--also, if the density were a lot lower (cometary for example), the ablation method would be even more effective and not pulverize the object.

Ideal would be (for the original problem discussed size) several 10's of 10MT class weapons detonated about 400-500m down...that's enough yield to pulverize the entire thing to dust/gravel ensuring burn up, AMD thus could be done a lot later...but would require drilling, etc.

Oh, for the ablation calc--the impulse efficiency of vaporization is typically about 1MJ of delivered energy equals about 20-100Ns of impulse (for microsecond pulses).  This can be increased by lengthening the pulse and really improved by using two or more nukes, one to preheat/pre vaporize the surface, the second to heat that larger mass to stretch out the pulse--possibly yielding a 10-20x or more improvement. A megaton is about 5 billion MJ, or a delivered impulse of (assuming the multi-stage method) 100-500 billion Ns and 1-10 trillion Ns per megaton--so you would need 20-200 megatons, hence my 10-20 requirement (as I was pretty conservative on the mass calcs--a cometary body would probably only need 10)

The best possible method would again be the deep pulverization method, but that requires drilling and such--I'd much rather send multiple bomb-craft that are lighter...that way if one or more fail, you can still get the mission done, and more only helps.   Anyway, a full discussion is the stuff of theses...and there have been quite a few.

If it was near C, we would not have to worry.  The kinetic weapon would hit some tiny spark of space dirt the size of a grain of sand and be blown to very tiny chunks.  The odds of this occurring is very low.  But it is a very long way from the Oort Cloud to here.   Unless they had some implausible shielding or defensive system.  The defensive system would have to be based off weird or exotic physics.  Because if you are an inch away from pure c, you'll have a devil of a time seeing anything, let alone a grain of sand.  Unless you phase out of this reality or otherwise cheat.

Honestly, my purely unscientific opinion is either it is entirely possible to fold space (or other means of "cheating") and near instantly travel between stars...   Or true expansion into the universe will be near impossible.  Stars are very very far from each other.  Even at C and assuming you can avoid the grain of sand equal death, it's decades to hundreds to thousands of years between many star systems.  Plus the whole expansion of the universe thing.  


Not only do nerds control the weapon systems...we are the only ones who know how to build them.

I like your tailored bio-factory...and while the mad scientist in me sees the intrigue and horror of the results...you can't beat the efficiency of nuclear weapons.  Yes, 10-20kg of anthrax spores can kill millions, but a 100kg of nuclear weapon can do the same...and it's cheaper and easier to get and more reliable.

Yessss.  But, humans live very well in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  We detonated well over 2000 nuclear devices and had very little impact on the world.  Autonomous biological combat units are very persistent.  So yes, nuclear weapons are damn simple if precisely constructed.   But they are not persistent weapons, contrary to propaganda from hippies and other morons.


What is the appropriate present participle conjugation of "to sterilize with multiple near-c impactors"?  Relativistic kinetic-ing just doesn't have a good ring to it.

"thermal and kinetic sterilization process initiated by extraterrestrial projectiles at relativistic hyper-velocity", I think.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 11:52:07 PM by RevDisk »
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2011, 11:24:41 PM »
Ah, but rev, you missed the point, say your tiny grain of sand hits my relativistic boulder...yes, the impact will likely shatter the boulder...however, the momentum hasn't really changed, so now, instead of getting hit with a single rock, you get hit with relativistic dust and vapor--the effect is still the same, and actually worse for the planet--all the energy gets rapidly dumped in the atmosphere instead of the land--so basically the atmosphere gets heated to 10-20,000K...pretty much instantly...true, it won't shatter the planet...but the effect is the same.  Since the cloud of boulder would likely expand at ~1km/s from it's central point, you could vaporize (on purpose or by accident) the impactor  2-2.5 billion km from earth and the vapor cloud would still all hit. 

However your best way to ensure the boulder doesn't get splattered sooner than this is to simply put a cloud of gas in front of it...the gas chews up any dust in the way, letting the boulder survive.  Then, about saturns orbit, you get rid of the gas, let the boulder vaporize, and ensure that all the relativistic kinetic-ing is evenly distributed across the target planet.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2011, 11:58:57 PM »
Ah, but rev, you missed the point, say your tiny grain of sand hits my relativistic boulder...yes, the impact will likely shatter the boulder...however, the momentum hasn't really changed, so now, instead of getting hit with a single rock, you get hit with relativistic dust and vapor--the effect is still the same, and actually worse for the planet--all the energy gets rapidly dumped in the atmosphere instead of the land--so basically the atmosphere gets heated to 10-20,000K...pretty much instantly...true, it won't shatter the planet...but the effect is the same.  Since the cloud of boulder would likely expand at ~1km/s from it's central point, you could vaporize (on purpose or by accident) the impactor  2-2.5 billion km from earth and the vapor cloud would still all hit.  

However your best way to ensure the boulder doesn't get splattered sooner than this is to simply put a cloud of gas in front of it...the gas chews up any dust in the way, letting the boulder survive.  Then, about saturns orbit, you get rid of the gas, let the boulder vaporize, and ensure that all the relativistic kinetic-ing is evenly distributed across the target planet.

What the bloody heck do you mean momentum has not changed?  The friggin original projectile is going to explodey like a small planetoid watermelon and form a cluster of pseudo conical projection.  Yea, statistically, SOMETHING will keep going near laser straight.  But it won't be 99.9999% of the original mass would not continue its original vector, for sure.  We'd pass through a cloud of space dirt of unknown diameters (depending on range, velocities, etc), sure.  But I don't think it would be retaining that near C velocity.  Mass does not often accelerate to near C by natural means (and I mean near C, not just 'pretty high relativistic speeds').  Only thing I can think of would be something accelerated by a blackhole.  

And dang it, I like your particle cloud o' death weapon.  I honestly never thought of near planetary sterilization via relativistic mostly gas and some space dirt cloud.

I maintain my "cannon ball run asteroid is really also a mass driver" proposal is still niftier.  Because it has a 2 mile mass driver incorporated.  Not as perhaps, elegant.  But again, 2 mile high acceleration mass driver trumps elegance any day of the week.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2011, 12:25:09 AM »
Okay, well the momentum may be reduced slightly...but it won't slow substantially...it will vaporize though, you were right on that, but as I explained...that just makes the destruction more uniform.  Unless it hits something pretty big (multiple kg) it's not going to be deflected.  Even if it hit something kg level (and it's 100 tons), it would still hit earth.

You are right on the conical projection--earth is 6370km in radius, if the rock is exploding outdated at 1 km/s, it will take 6370 seconds for the cloud to be earth radius, during which, the cloud would travel 6370 seconds * 300,000 km/s = ~1.8-2 billion km. (hence my Saturn orbit statement)

Yes, it would be unnatural means...a two-mile mass driver couldn't do it, but the recoil would be impressive. 
We have achieved accelerations of 1-2km/s per meter for solid objects, which would yield 0.01c, and 10-20x that could be done with really light projectiles.  Still, the only way you'd ever get near c would be to have some spacecraft technology capable of doing it, and bringing the rock with you.

For now, we will just have to rely on lower speed stuff.  A 1 kg brick at 3000 km/s would still have a yield of a kiloton or so...and we could machine gun them out.  (well, one a second would require more electrical power than earth...but think of the fireworks!  Being able to lay down kiloton class impacts 60 times a minute?)

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,843
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2011, 03:00:29 AM »
Advancement?

In 1961, we could put a man in orbit. A few years later, TWO men in orbit. And eventually, three. Today in 2011 - none. We have no manned spaceflight capability.

In 1969 we could land men on the Moon, and bring them back safely; it's been decades since we lost this capability.

We've collectively made the decision to redirect NASA funding to such worthy projects as welfare, food stamps, EITC, midnight basketball, etc.

At this rate, by 2100, we'll be lucky to have functional telescopes.
So what you are saying is that the evil plan of the aliens is working.   [tinfoil]
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2011, 08:02:30 AM »
So what you are saying is that the evil plan of the aliens Democrats is working.   [tinfoil]

FIFY.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Space Radar
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2011, 08:21:18 AM »
So what you are saying is that the evil plan of the aliens Democrats Socialists is working.   [tinfoil]

FIFY.....

FIFY again.