Author Topic: "U.K.'s insane gun laws cause murder rate to rise"  (Read 1446 times)

Stand_watie

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"U.K.'s insane gun laws cause murder rate to rise"
« on: October 15, 2006, 04:55:30 PM »
The message I put in the post header is taken as an article of faith by many serious US gunnies. I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think it is the only, or even the most important factor. Look at the news article below... what would almost certainly be treated as felony murder in most of the US, is treated as 'manslaughter' by English courts. I suspect that turning serious violent predators loose after a very short term in prison (something that is only common to the UK of the past few dozen years) is impacting their crime rate more than their gun laws.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6052534.stm


Boy is charged over attack death  
 
Peter Ramsey, a Canadian, died three days after being attacked
Police have charged a 15-year-old boy with manslaughter following the death of a man who was attacked after leaving a Hampshire supermarket.
Peter Ramsey, 40, died at Southampton General Hospital on Friday, three days after being set upon near Tesco Express in the Millbrook area of Southampton.

Mr Ramsey, a Canadian, of Green Park Road, was assaulted while walking home with his girlfriend.

Four boys and a girl aged 13 to 15 have been released on police bail.

Mr Rasmey, an artist, managed to return home but later collapsed.

He underwent emergency surgery for a head wound at Southampton General Hospital but died from his injuries on Friday.

He leaves two children from a previous marriage, who both live in Canada. His mother and extended family live in Hampshire.

The teenager, who has not been named, will appear at Southampton Youth Court on Monday, a Hampshire Police spokeswoman said.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

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Standing Wolf

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"U.K.'s insane gun laws cause murder rate to rise"
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 05:07:53 PM »
Quote
I suspect that turning serious violent predators loose after a very short term in prison (something that is only common to the UK of the past few dozen years) is impacting their crime rate more than their gun laws.
I doubt either set of events is a prime cause. I think they're both evidence of a far deeper rot that pervades British "culture." The laws and practices are reflections or results, I suspect, not root causes in and of themselves.

The rot I refer to is socialism. Monstrous ugliness is one of its numerous inevitable results.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Stand_watie

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"U.K.'s insane gun laws cause murder rate to rise"
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2006, 06:01:47 PM »
Quote from: Standing Wolf
Quote
I suspect that turning serious violent predators loose after a very short term in prison (something that is only common to the UK of the past few dozen years) is impacting their crime rate more than their gun laws.
I doubt either set of events is a prime cause. I think they're both evidence of a far deeper rot that pervades British "culture." The laws and practices are reflections or results, I suspect, not root causes in and of themselves.

The rot I refer to is socialism. Monstrous ugliness is one of its numerous inevitable results.
I'm not sure I agree with you there. Historically, look at the early Christian church as described in the letters of Paul in the New Testament. Look at the early Puritan colonies in the United States. Both examples of socialism more pervasive than England's current socialism, yet not a monstrous "rot" in terms of social values, but more of an unwieldy and unworkable financial system that was quickly done away with after seeing that it didn't work- unless you're referring to "socialism" in the sense of a broader terminology that incorporates fuzzy or non-existent morality and non-judgemental "consequences" that apply to all rather than the wrongdoer, in which case I have to agree with you whole-heartedly.

Believe it or not, I actually agree with Britain's "softly, softly, catchee monkey" approach to certain types of crime (Ian can probably explain to you better than I what exactly that means), but when it comes to crime that actually makes specific victims, rather than general nuisance types of things, I think American punishment is better than British rehabilitation.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Perd Hapley

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"U.K.'s insane gun laws cause murder rate to rise"
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2006, 06:50:16 PM »
I think the Christian examples you cite are very different creatures from socialism in modern Britain or almost anywhere else.  The first form was not really socialism, it was just voluntary sharing.  Both were quickly ended before any rot could have formed anyway, so who knows what might have happened?
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Stand_watie

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"U.K.'s insane gun laws cause murder rate to rise"
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2006, 07:46:12 PM »
Quote from: fistful
I think the Christian examples you cite are very different creatures from socialism in modern Britain or almost anywhere else.  The first form was not really socialism, it was just voluntary sharing.  Both were quickly ended before any rot could have formed anyway, so who knows what might have happened?
I certainly agree with you that they were very different from any other that I know of (except for some hippie, christian communes (yes, Christian and hippie commune are not mutually exclusive - that I know of from the 70's and 80's) communities, certainly they were quite different from contemporary British society, but they were socialist, economically at least. The "rot" was of financial incentives not working in relation to human nature, but morally speaking I think both groups were quite advanced by today's value comparisons.

As an example, I spent several days living with a decidedly wierd, but genuine and devout bunch of socialist Christians in Island Pond, Vermont, back in the mid 80's'.

From Wikipedia

The Twelve Tribes (New religious movement)
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For other uses of "The Twelve Tribes" see The Twelve Tribes (disambiguation)
The Twelve Tribes is a federation of self-governing religious communities founded by Elbert Eugene Spriggs (now known as Yoneq) that sprung out of the Jesus Movement in the early 1970s in Chattanooga, Tennessee. [1] The group has also gone by the names The Church in Island Pond and The Commonwealth of Israel.

Origins
The origins of the Twelve Tribes movement can be traced to small meetings held in the home of Elbert Eugene Spriggs and his wife Marsha in the early 1970s in Chattanooga, Tennessee. In 1972, the Spriggs began a ministry for teenagers called the "Light Brigade." Around this time, members of the "Light Brigade" began to live communally and supported their lifestyle by operating a coffeeshop. Until this time, Spriggs' group had not been a separate denomination, instead affiliating itself with several different local churches and denominations. However, this changed after Spriggs allegedly went to church one Sunday only to find the service delayed due to the Super Bowl.[2] Spriggs then formed his own church, called the "Vine Community Church", and started a chain of restaurants around the Southern United States called "Yellow Deli," designed to create revenue for the group and for evangelist purposes. During this period, the church came under attack by mainstream Christian groups and anti-cult groups. Around the time the climate turned negative in the South, Spriggs was invited to be pastor to a group of disaffected Christians in Vermont.[3] Spriggs and his followers therefore moved their base of operations to Island Pond, Vermont in 1977 calling themselves The Northeast Kingdom Community Church, where they continued to be criticized for some of their beliefs and practices.[4] However, the group continued to grow during the 1980s and 1990s, opening branches in several different countries, including France, Canada, Australia, Brazil, Spain, Germany, Argentina, and the United Kingdom. (See [5] for an address list of Twelve Tribes' communities.)

Beliefs and practices
According to a statement from their website[6], the group seeks to live according to the primitive pattern of the early church described in Acts 2:38-42 and Acts 4:32-37. Claiming to follow the teachings of Jesus (whom they call by his Hebrew name Yahshua), they believe that all disciples must renounce all possessions and independent lives in order to truly call him their Master and Lord. They aspire, "to live moral lives in the midst of a very immoral society."

According to a 1998 article by the religious scholar Dr. Susan J. Palmer, who stayed in the community, members give themselves Hebrew names and their beliefs are closely related to Christian fundamentalism. [7] Group members live communally, sharing all assets and income in common. They consider themselves the only true church since apostolic times.

The group believes that humans are living in the end times, and that a faithful and pure church must be restored before Christ returns. They claim their main tenets to be forgiveness, love, purity, and obedience to the Christ's teachings. Members have run a variety of restaurants and restaurant-related businesses. The group estimates its current membership to be around 2500.


Controversies
The group garnered controversies in the 1980s. The anti-cult movement and ex-Twelves Tribes members are some of the most vocal critics of the group's practices. Bob Pardon, an anti-cult advisor, warns that the "Messianic Communities, under the leadership of Spriggs, has tended towards an extreme authoritarianism."[8] The group responds that they are a "simple people who live on Main Street USA" and that "all members can leave at any time, but choose to remain daily..."
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Art Eatman

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"U.K.'s insane gun laws cause murder rate to rise"
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2006, 03:07:05 AM »
"they believe that all disciples must renounce all possessions and independent lives..."

Yeah, and the renouncing usually means the possessions wind up in Big Hodad's bank account.

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.