Author Topic: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses  (Read 6280 times)

MillCreek

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Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« on: February 19, 2013, 09:06:53 AM »
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02/19/lawsuit-claims-michigan-hospital-granted-request-for-no-black-nurses/

I get these sort of requests from time to time.  Requests for or against a particular ethnic or gender group: no Hispanic nurses, no female doctors, Indian physicians only, etc.  If I can accommodate a particular gender request, such as female nurses or physicians only for a female patient in for OB or gyn care or if the patient has a psychological reason, such as a victim of sexual violence, I will try to do so dependent on our staffing.  But if you request a particular ethnic group to care for you without a reason that I find persuasive, I will generally decline your request and invite you to transfer out to another hospital that may be better able to meet your needs.  

Where it gets really tricky is when an OB patient requests no male staff due to cultural or religious reasons, and the physician on duty is male; the female physicians will generally not come in for this if they are not on call.  So the patient can either go with the male physician or transfer out.  

« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:09:59 AM by MillCreek »
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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never_retreat

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2013, 09:19:30 AM »
My best friends mother is an ct/x ray tech and I have heard some of these stories before.
This guy clearly wanted noting to due with anyone that was not white..

I personally can't stand any doctors that can't speak English clearly. (that usually means all indian doctors)(how can you go through 7-8 years of medical school and not improve your english?)
I hurt my back a few months back and decided I need to go to a chiropractor. I was laying in bed and I asked the gf to pull up my insurance company's web site and look through the list of approved providers. She says anyone in particular? I say no indian names. So after a couple of sessions the doc asks how did you find out about me? So I told him the story and he started cracking up. He also happened to be near the top of the list because his first name was Anthony. His last name is a good Italian name to.
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HankB

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2013, 10:05:28 AM »
. . . I personally can't stand any doctors that can't speak English clearly. (that usually means all indian doctors) . . .
This . . . in reference to all service people I have to deal with. (And yes, I consider doctors to be service people, too . . . it's just that the plumbing they keep in good condition is a little more important to me than what's under my kitchen sink.  ;)  )
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Tallpine

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 11:21:20 AM »
Took one of our daughters to ER one time and the Indian doctor had no clue what the relationship is between "English" and metric fluid measurements  :facepalm:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

SteveS

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2013, 11:36:08 AM »
This hospital probably figured it was easier to grant the request then deal with the families racist tirades if a black person touched their baby. That being said, I find it hard to see how this is a reasonable request.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2013, 12:46:37 PM »
Dad's had some pretty crappy experiances when it comes to Indian doctors, not just with not being able to understand the accent, but also with what we have chalked up to cultural diffrences. A lot of them can be very aloof and cold when dealing with patients and those guys don't like to be questioned.
Which doesn't go over well with a gregarous, cynical patient who does not have a great science/biology background but wants to understand what's going on to the best of his ability and also has stress related blood pressure issues.

In a somewhat related conversation with my mother, she pointed out that there are just sometimes when telling someone to take their raciest (or bigoted in whatever fasion) attitude and shove it is just not appropriate. I would say when that someone is a patient undergoing medical care is probably one of those times.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2013, 07:29:49 PM »
Dad's had some pretty crappy experiances when it comes to Indian doctors, not just with not being able to understand the accent, but also with what we have chalked up to cultural diffrences. A lot of them can be very aloof and cold when dealing with patients and those guys don't like to be questioned.

I encountered that with a Korean doctor (resident) at the VA hospital. On a previous visit, a different resident had prescribed a topical medication for a skin condition. I had an immediate and very pronounced adverse reaction to the medication ... so I did as the directions said, and stopped using it. When Dr. Kim Jong-un asked how the medication had worked and I told him I had to stop using it, he flipped out. He went running out of the exam room and dragged the supervising physician in to berate me for being a bad patient. The supervising doc asked me why I had stopped using the stuff, and I told him: Because I had a severe and painful reaction to it. The supervising doc then turned to Dr. Kim Jong-un and told him I had done exactly the right thing.

Doc Kim was visibly displeased. A couple of years later, yet another doctor prescribed the same medication for me, which led to the discovery that Doc Kim had tried to get his revenge for my having caused him to lose face in front of his supervisor by NOT noting my allergic reaction to the stuff in my record.

I filed a formal complaint with the VA health care system. It took me a year and a half of harassing the so-called "patient advocate" (translation: chief of obstructionism), but I got the complaint all the way to the head of the hospital.
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SteveS

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2013, 08:52:01 PM »
I think it is one thing to complain about substandard care or a person that cannot be understood. It is entirely another thing to complain about how a certain race makes you feel. I don't think trying to accommodate the latter is something that shood be reasonable expected.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 09:07:09 PM »
I think it is one thing to complain about substandard care or a person that cannot be understood. It is entirely another thing to complain about how a certain race makes you feel. I don't think trying to accommodate the latter is something that shood be reasonable expected.

 =|

The people they are dealing with are in a vunerable state and likely stressed or scared, both of which can exsaberate certain conditions.
Trust in ones medical professionals is nessasry too the patient. If they won't trust their nurse/doctor because of a stupid reason, it doesn't matter what the reason is and you're not likely going to change their minds at that time. When what matters is getting what needs to be done, done, sometimes you just have to work around crap like this.

Mind you, if it's an elective procedure or requires a specility in which the patient doesn't have a choice of doctor, it's time to suck it up and say either deal with what you get or GTFO. But the rest of the time, well, sometimes descretion is the better part of valor.
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Tallpine

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2013, 10:12:57 AM »
I think it is one thing to complain about substandard care or a person that cannot be understood. It is entirely another thing to complain about how a certain race makes you feel. I don't think trying to accommodate the latter is something that shood be reasonable expected.

If one consistently gets substandard care from certain "groups" then it does make some sense.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MillCreek

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 10:29:59 AM »
=|

The people they are dealing with are in a vunerable state and likely stressed or scared, both of which can exsaberate certain conditions.
Trust in ones medical professionals is nessasry too the patient. If they won't trust their nurse/doctor because of a stupid reason, it doesn't matter what the reason is and you're not likely going to change their minds at that time. When what matters is getting what needs to be done, done, sometimes you just have to work around crap like this.

Mind you, if it's an elective procedure or requires a specility in which the patient doesn't have a choice of doctor, it's time to suck it up and say either deal with what you get or GTFO. But the rest of the time, well, sometimes descretion is the better part of valor.

As a healthcare employer, we have a duty to our employees to not discriminate against them and to support them when patients make unreasonable requests.  Telling a particular class of employees that they cannot care for our patients due to the employees age, gender or ethnicity is wrong and illegal, even if it is at the request of the patient or family.  Unless the patient has a compelling clinical reason why we should accommodate such a request, we will not do it. 

If you went to Target and asked the manager for a high SPF (shamelessly stolen from CSD, because I think it is a hoot) cashier, because you just don't trust the Hispanic cashier because they have a funny accent and a Hispanic cashier shortchanged you once, I am pretty sure Target is not going to do so.  Same thing if you asked the cops to send a black officer to investigate your residential burglary because you just don't trust the high SPF officers, them being descended from slave-holders and all.

Fortunately, this being a free market and all, if the patient does not like it, there are other hospitals right down the road.
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

zahc

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2013, 11:24:12 AM »
Everyone is assuming the patient is wrong, and the hospital should have declared that his preference was wrong and ignored it. This may get me shouted down as a blatant racist, but the patient's request may have actually been reasonable. The patient, having very limited information, probably felt that he would get better medical care from non-black caregivers. There are ways to come to that conclusion besides bigotry.

You make your choices and you take your chances. If you think that black and non-black caregivers give equal care, that's great. If you think that black caregivers give worse care, but you are willing to sacrifice your health to avoid appearing politically incorrect or to fulfil your own moral obligations, that's great too. If you simply want the best care, and you think that skin radiometry or zodiac compatibility or sex or age has a CORRELATION to better care, and wish to choose your caregiver accordingly, I don't think that's a mark of bigotry, UNLESS that conclusion was arrived at through prejudice and bigotry. But MAY be logical and objective ways to come to that conclusion, besides bigotry.

Quote
http://lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm

 Medical school admission is uncommonly competitive, there being many more applicants than slots. The competition is so intense that if black applicants were held to the same admission standards as whites and Asians, we would turn out almost no black physicians.

   We now have a double standard for admission to medical school brought about by affirmative action. As a result, two tiers of American physicians have emerged separated by race and ability...We will quantify the performance gap for physicians.

   A benchmark for medical competence is the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) Exam Part I...Dawson and her colleagues found that white medical students passed the NBME test at a rate of 87.7 percent and blacks at 48.9 percent. Again, using methods described in Appendix A, we found these pass rates equivalent to a black-white mean difference of 1.19 SD. Mean differences for the bar and NBME exams are conspicuously similar. The one-plus SD gap does not yield easily.

   Notably, when Dawson's study looked at entering students with similar academic credentials, the pass rates on the NBME exam were independent of race, pointing an accusing finger directly at affirmative action. For all its good intentions, affirmative action has created two levels of competence in American medicine, separated by a bit more than one standard deviation. When you are wheeled into the ER at 2:00 a.m., if you pray, pray that the black doctor who greets you entered medical school through the front door.

Insurance companies don't have the resources to deconvolve correlation and causation. They don't have to, because correlation is actually closer to what the insurance companies actually need...actuarial and statistical reality, which will have the real effect on the insurance company's payouts and profitability. Understanding the underlying causes of correlation DOES have value if you can extrapolate those findings to new data sets and predict the correlations that will result. But if you already have the actual correlation, you already have what you need. So insurance companies charge more to insure red cars because more red cars get in more accidents. Period. There is no need or motivation for them to consider the 'fairness' or root causes of why red cars get it more accidents...it will NOT change their decision anyway; they will bill based on the hard data. They don't have 'fairness officers' that morph data from what 'is' into what it 'should be'.

When someone's medical care is on the line, are they to blame for making decisions based on hard data? Or all we all to care so much about political correctness and fairness that we ignore hard data and and sacrifice our health to avoid offending?
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SteveS

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2013, 11:32:32 AM »
If one consistently gets substandard care from certain "groups" then it does make some sense.

It may.  I don't know about the motivations behind this person's request.  

Again, I am not saying that people shouldn't request things like that, but that it may not be reasonable to expect that kind of request be honored.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 11:41:53 AM by SteveS »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 11:41:46 AM »
in a perverse way at least mr swastika was honest about his bias.  hes certainly not all alone.  and it happens in other places. i've seen it in restaurants. , not very wise making those who cook your food angry before they cook.  might be even less wise in hospital.  swatika boy probably figured, and rightly , no one in hospital would hurt his kid because hes a moron
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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SteveS

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2013, 11:44:26 AM »
There are ways to come to that conclusion besides bigotry.

He had a swastika tattoo on his arm.  I don't think bigotry is that much of a logical leap.
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Tallpine

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2013, 02:04:52 PM »
It may.  I don't know about the motivations behind this person's request.  

Again, I am not saying that people shouldn't request things like that, but that it may not be reasonable to expect that kind of request be honored.



So it's reasonable to just expect/accept substandard care?   =|

I don't care what flavor you are as long as you do your job professionally and politely.  Something like this request would never before have even occurred to me, but then I haven't been in a hospital as a patient in decades.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Tallpine

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2013, 02:07:53 PM »
Quote
there are other hospitals right down the road.

Indeed  =)

Although it might be worth one's while to discover the motivation of the request.

Is it based on pure racial bias or an experience of substandard care/ill treatment?

Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

SteveS

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2013, 02:53:23 PM »
So it's reasonable to just expect/accept substandard care?   =|

I don't care what flavor you are as long as you do your job professionally and politely.  Something like this request would never before have even occurred to me, but then I haven't been in a hospital as a patient in decades.

Where did I say that a person should expect lousy care?  I just said that it is not reasonable to expect a hospital to make staffing choices based on racial preferences. 
Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate mother****er.

MechAg94

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2013, 03:02:51 PM »
I have questions:
1. Does the nurse suing have a copy of the note from the patient's file?  That would seem to be a key piece of evidence.  I guess it would need to be recognizable as someone's handwriting.
2.  Was this just a case of the supervisor not wanting to argue with the father and reshuffling the babies/patients?
3.  Did the black nurse do less work or more work or get inferior work because of this or was it solely the reshuffling?  If the baby was assigned to the other nurse originally, would anyone care?  If the guy just said he liked that other nurse better with no mention of race, would this still be an issue?
4.  Do other people at the hospital concur that this happened at all?   

The nurse is asking for punitive damages.  I am asking my self what exactly are the damages to anyone over this?  Why can't a hospital comply with even an unreasonable request if it is not a hassle or extra cost?  I seems to me that if #3 above is a no, then the only real issue is the father was rascist.  
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 03:15:34 PM by MechAg94 »
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MechAg94

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2013, 04:13:15 PM »
Is this where I am supposed to say the obligatory "I am not racsist, but...." or "I have good friends that are black, but...."?


 :laugh:  "...I guess I'm feeling a bit truthsome at the moment.."
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lupinus

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Re: Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2013, 04:17:15 PM »
I'm going to agree with BSL here.

If some racist idiot is in the ER having a heart attack and wants a white/Brown/yellow/Christian/Hindu/Amazonian witchdoctor/whatever Dr., and one is available, just get them one. Stupid reason or not, treating the patient comes first and it isn't the time to change their mind.

Someone not wanting a hispanic cashier at target can go to Walmart. Kind of hard to shop around in the middle of dieing though.
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Tallpine

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2013, 04:34:39 PM »
Where did I say that a person should expect lousy care?  I just said that it is not reasonable to expect a hospital to make staffing choices based on racial preferences. 

Neither is it reasonable for a hospital to hire subqualified persons based on an allowance for their skin color.

I think that if I ran any sort of business and a customer asked not to be served by a particular person or group of persons, that I would want to find out if there is a problem with the services rendered by that particular person or group of persons.

If certain employees are not doing their jobs properly then that needs to be corrected; otherwise the customer just needs to get over it, or go somewhere else.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

SteveS

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2013, 04:40:01 PM »
Neither is it reasonable for a hospital to hire subqualified persons based on an allowance for their skin color.

I think that if I ran any sort of business and a customer asked not to be served by a particular person or group of persons, that I would want to find out if there is a problem with the services rendered by that particular person or group of persons.

If certain employees are not doing their jobs properly then that needs to be corrected; otherwise the customer just needs to get over it, or go somewhere else.

Seems reasonable to me.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2013, 08:31:58 PM »
I don't see what the problem is.

I want one.   =D

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MillCreek

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Re: Hospital lawsuit over patient request for no black nurses
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2013, 08:42:02 PM »
^^^ If only our hospitals were filled with the hot doctors and nurses you see on TV!
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.