Author Topic: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad  (Read 8513 times)

richyoung

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2008, 01:24:28 PM »
Quote
That particular doctor's usual practice in the 10-20% of saline abortions that result in live births was to strangle the child to death.


...and THAT is what leads to abortion mill bombings and shootings....
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2008, 01:26:37 PM »
yup


interesting how as far as i know its all men expounding here. we have a lil less at stake
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2008, 01:29:24 PM »
Rich,

See my edited post above. 

"Disfiguring and debilitating for a while."  Please don't make me go over things I've already covered.  Like I said originally, if one recognizes the embryo as a human being, with a right to life, temporary disfigurement and debilitation would not justify killing that human being. 

You're better off with the "death sentence" approach, as weak as that is.  "For some it is."  A slight chance of death is not a death sentence, so your response is a non sequitur. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2008, 01:32:42 PM »
Quote
That particular doctor's usual practice in the 10-20% of saline abortions that result in live births was to strangle the child to death.

...and THAT is what leads to abortion mill bombings and shootings....

Why would a few throttlings lead to anti-abortion violence, rather than the tens of millions of innocent children that anti-abortionists believe are being murdered every day? 
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richyoung

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2008, 04:52:53 PM »
Rich,

See my edited post above. 

"Disfiguring and debilitating for a while."  Please don't make me go over things I've already covered.  Like I said originally, if one recognizes the embryo as a human being, with a right to life, temporary disfigurement and debilitation would not justify killing that human being. 

You're better off with the "death sentence" approach, as weak as that is.  "For some it is."  A slight chance of death is not a death sentence, so your response is a non sequitur. 

When one sky-dives, races cars, or has consensual sex, death is a possible consequence and acceptance of that is implicit in choosing to engage in that activity.  I cannot, in good conscience, compel someone to run that risk who did not, or legally could not, make that choice of their free will.  For example, suppose someone has total kidney failure, and suppose I'm  a potential donor - the ONLY potential donor.  SHould I be compelled to donate?
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richyoung

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2008, 04:54:21 PM »
Quote
That particular doctor's usual practice in the 10-20% of saline abortions that result in live births was to strangle the child to death.

...and THAT is what leads to abortion mill bombings and shootings....

Why would a few throttlings lead to anti-abortion violence, rather than the tens of millions of innocent children that anti-abortionists believe are being murdered every day? 

siphoning out a clump of cells just isn't as inflamatory as throttling a live-born infant...
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Firethorn

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2008, 06:05:12 PM »
Or to put it another way, innocent life must never be taken without extreme mitigating circumstances (self defense, national defense, etc.).  As terrible as the experience may be for the pregnant rape victim, her anguish is not a good reason to kill an innocent person.  FWIW, I don't think the rapist should be killed, either, though I strongly support the death penalty in other cases such as murder.

Note:  I'm pro-choice.  That means that the 14 year old victim of rape; with the support of her parents, can make a difficult choice.

How about another angle:  The 'morning after' pill.

It works by preventing ovulation or implantation of the blastocyst.

What's your view on that?

Quote
If you decide you don't want a baby that late, adoption is the best option IMO.

Agreed.

Quote
Why would a few throttlings lead to anti-abortion violence, rather than the tens of millions of innocent children that anti-abortionists believe are being murdered every day?

Because quite a few of them are hypocrites.  Quite a number of them end up using the services of the very clinic they protested at, or traveling three states when either they or their daughter gets an unwanted pregnancy. I detest hypocrites.

It takes a bit of work to get people up to bombing a place when it takes an expert to tell the difference between the fetus being aborted and that of a chicken.

Finally, the statistics show that abortions peaked around 2000, and have been dropping since.  They're also occurring earlier.  Probably due to the 'morning after' pill and better detection methods.

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2008, 07:17:48 PM »
Rich,

See my edited post above. 

"Disfiguring and debilitating for a while."  Please don't make me go over things I've already covered.  Like I said originally, if one recognizes the embryo as a human being, with a right to life, temporary disfigurement and debilitation would not justify killing that human being. 

You're better off with the "death sentence" approach, as weak as that is.  "For some it is."  A slight chance of death is not a death sentence, so your response is a non sequitur. 

When one sky-dives, races cars, or has consensual sex, death is a possible consequence and acceptance of that is implicit in choosing to engage in that activity.  I cannot, in good conscience, compel someone to run that risk who did not, or legally could not, make that choice of their free will.  For example, suppose someone has total kidney failure, and suppose I'm  a potential donor - the ONLY potential donor.  SHould I be compelled to donate?

Assuming life begins at conception, the baby is an innocent party who you are killing. So yeah, compelling the mother to carry it to term is permissible.
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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2008, 08:22:59 PM »
richyoung:

Thanks for taking a whack at the question(s) in the OP.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2008, 08:46:38 PM »
When one sky-dives, races cars, or has consensual sex, death is a possible consequence and acceptance of that is implicit in choosing to engage in that activity.  I cannot, in good conscience, compel someone to run that risk who did not, or legally could not, make that choice of their free will.

So you're going to guarantee the death of one innocent human, to avoid the slight risk of death to the other innocent human?  Even though, if nature is allowed to take its course, both patients will probably end up in good health?  I've already been through this with CAnnoneer, and he's since come around closer to my point of view.  You will be assimilated.*   smiley

And abortions are not without risk of death, either. 

Quote
For example, suppose someone has total kidney failure, and suppose I'm  a potential donor - the ONLY potential donor.  SHould I be compelled to donate?
Hey, you got your apple on my orange!  This false comparison could be aborted in at least a couple of different ways.  For one thing, the rape victim has already been compelled.  It's not so much a question of compulsion, as a question of when killing is justified. 

A closer analogy would be the old classic, The Case of the Famous Violinist, in which a person awakens to find themselves in a hospital bed, with another person attached to them with tubes, and dependent on them for kidney function.  In this case, the violation has already occurred, and the only item in question is the obligation to continue to nourish another person. 

But that old chestnut is very flawed.  A pregnant woman is not usually confined to a hospital bed, with tubes sticking out everywhere.  And even if the mother was raped; the resulting pregnancy, though unwanted, is still a natural condition, for which the body was designed, not a hospital procedure.  And an embryo or fetus is not a sick person.  No matter how healthy she is, dependence on her mother's body is her normal and natural state for that nine months.  And the kidnapped dialysis provider will not go through the psychological complications that many women feel when they abort their children. 

And so on and so forth.  The Violinist argument has been around longer than I have, so I'm sure you could find plenty of discussions about it on the web. 


*I'm not taking credit for CAnnoneer's "major personal turn."  Especially since I don't know whether he still feels that way.
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richyoung

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2008, 09:15:37 PM »
Rich,

See my edited post above. 

"Disfiguring and debilitating for a while."  Please don't make me go over things I've already covered.  Like I said originally, if one recognizes the embryo as a human being, with a right to life, temporary disfigurement and debilitation would not justify killing that human being. 

You're better off with the "death sentence" approach, as weak as that is.  "For some it is."  A slight chance of death is not a death sentence, so your response is a non sequitur. 

When one sky-dives, races cars, or has consensual sex, death is a possible consequence and acceptance of that is implicit in choosing to engage in that activity.  I cannot, in good conscience, compel someone to run that risk who did not, or legally could not, make that choice of their free will.  For example, suppose someone has total kidney failure, and suppose I'm  a potential donor - the ONLY potential donor.  SHould I be compelled to donate?

Assuming life begins at conception, the baby is an innocent party who you are killing. So yeah, compelling the mother to carry it to term is permissible.

Nope.  If a crazed siamese twin breaks into my bedroom to do me in, and I shoot him, and as a result both he and his otherwise innocent conjoined twin who was just "along for the ride", so to speak, dies, I'm fine with that.  Its called collateral damage.
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richyoung

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2008, 09:16:02 PM »
richyoung:

Thanks for taking a whack at the question(s) in the OP.

As always, a pleasure...
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2008, 09:51:05 PM »

siphoning out a clump of cells just isn't as inflamatory as throttling a live-born infant...


There's some truth to that, but it's not like the stranglings get any more press attention than the more legally  preferable methods.  And I don't think clinic bombers need a lot of extra encouragement, anyway.  But then, I've never met one.  I think. 


  The 'morning after' pill.

It works by preventing ovulation or implantation of the blastocyst.

What's your view on that?

Given what I've said so far, you should know my answer.  To seek to prevent implantation is to attempt to kill an innocent human organism.  As far as I can tell, there are no judgment calls in that sentence, just exposition of facts.  I hope there will be no need to take my comments personally.

I'm not really in this to convert pro's to anti's, although that would be nifty.  I only got into this discussion to point out that, if one takes the position that human life begins at conception and deserves the same protections as other young children, then things like rape just don't factor into the question, and are more emotional appeal than anything else.  jfruser's quip about choosing not to have sex, applied to the choice argument for abortion, and it does so very effectively.  But it obviously doesn't hold true in all cases.  No one said it does. 


Quote
Quote
Why would a few throttlings lead to anti-abortion violence, rather than the tens of millions of innocent children that anti-abortionists believe are being murdered every day?

Because quite a few of them are hypocrites.  Quite a number of them end up using the services of the very clinic they protested at, or traveling three states when either they or their daughter gets an unwanted pregnancy. I detest hypocrites.

It takes a bit of work to get people up to bombing a place when it takes an expert to tell the difference between the fetus being aborted and that of a chicken.

I don't quite understand why you responded this way.  The bit about hypocrisy just doesn't seem related to the question.  Do you know of some abortion clinic bombers who've done this?  And the chicken thing I don't quite get, either.  You're saying that violent anti-abortionists don't know about first and second trimester abortions, or don't care about them?  Huh?

The point I made was that I don't think anti-abortion terrorists need live-birth abortions to motivate them, when they're also hearing about many more children being murdered by other abortion methods.  But like I said, I don't know any, so I could be wrong. 

Speaking of hypocrites, they bother me more than you.  Because to me, they're also murderers.

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LadySmith

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2008, 10:59:35 PM »
yup


interesting how as far as i know its all men expounding here. we have a lil less at stake

I'm around, but just lurking because you guys tend to get a bit emotional about this subject.

I'm also trying to figure out how Fistful went from scapegoat to rapist.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2008, 02:05:22 AM »
The problem is that we do not know when personhood begins.

A religious person would argue that God endows you with personhood/ a soul whenever he chooses, and that the presence/absence of a brain is not necessary to have personhood. If you believe that, then of course it's possible to believe even a very early stage embryo is a human being and a baby.

Someone else might argue that the person must have at least a potential ability to think, so a developed brain is necessary. Taken to its extreme, it would imply that not even newborns are fully human - but that's crazy, too.
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Stand_watie

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2008, 02:08:17 AM »
yup


interesting how as far as i know its all men expounding here. we have a lil less at stake

I'm around, but just lurking because you guys tend to get a bit emotional about this subject.

I'm also trying to figure out how Fistful went from scapegoat to rapist.
   
I was part of a "pro-life" group in college. The rest of the members were all female. Men may talk more about the issue, but both sides of the issue are dominated by women.
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Stand_watie

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2008, 02:14:34 AM »
     Off topic, but Microbalrog do you know what time it is here? 6:15 a.m on a saturday. All reasonable Americans are currently in bed sleeping the sleep of the righteous.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2008, 02:15:53 AM »
     Off topic, but Microbalrog do you know what time it is here? 6:15 a.m on a saturday. All reasonable Americans are currently in bed sleeping the sleep of the righteous.

Yes, and? This is a forum, not a chat room. I do not expect anybody to respond to my post immediately or something.
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Stand_watie

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2008, 02:21:25 AM »
     Off topic, but Microbalrog do you know what time it is here? 6:15 a.m on a saturday. All reasonable Americans are currently in bed sleeping the sleep of the righteous.

Yes, and? This is a forum, not a chat room. I do not expect anybody to respond to my post immediately or something.

     Come on man, I was kidding around with you. I was joking about the fact that I was here and posting while all other Americans are asleep. I didn't mean it as a genuine criticism.
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K Frame

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Re: Ouch!: New 527 bornalivetruth.org Releases Issue Ad
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2008, 03:25:14 AM »
Just another in a series of endless pro-choice/antiabortion debates.

The same actors, the same arguments, and the same results (i.e., no opinions changed).

Thank you all for keeping it as civil as you have so far.

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