Author Topic: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan  (Read 8550 times)

MicroBalrog

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Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« on: October 03, 2008, 06:13:51 AM »
Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
By Haaretz Service
Tags: Israel news, East Jerusalem

Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in remarks published Monday that Israel would have to withdraw from East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights if it was serious about making peace with the Palestinians and Syria.

In an interview with the Yedioth Aharonoth daily, Olmert said that as a hard-line politician for decades he had not been prepared to look at reality in all of its depth.

"Ariel Sharon spoke about painful costs and refused to elaborate," Olmert told the daily. "I say, we have no choice but to elaborate. In the end of the day, we will have to withdraw from the most decisive areas of the territories. In exchange for the same territories left in our hands, we will have to give compensation in the form of territories within the State of Israel."
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"I think we are very close to an agreement," Olmert added.

These comments were the clearest sign to date of Olmert's willingness to meet key Palestinian demands in peace talks.

With regard to the Syria track, Olmert added that a future peace agreement required a pullout from the Golan Heights, an area under Israeli control since the 1967 Six-Day War.

"First and foremost, we must make a decision. I'd like to see if there is one serious person in the State of Israel who believes it is possible to make peace with the Syrians without eventually giving up the Golan Heights."

"It is true that an agreement with Syria comes with danger," he said. "Those who want to act with zero danger should move to Switzerland."

Yedioth Aharonoth noted that in this "legacy interview," published on the eve of the Jewish New Year, Olmert went further in making offers for peace than he ever did publicly when he was in active office and had greater power to see them carried out.

The interview was met with fierce criticism from politicians on both the right and the left.

MK Yuval Steinitz said the comments demonstrated the outgoing leader's readiness "to ignore even the most crucial" of Israel's needs.

"The prime minister's concession the essential borders of defense is a gamble on the bone of existence, and the future of the State of Israel," Steinitz told Army Radio in response to Olmert's comments.

"Ignoring the distance between rockets fired from afar and the enemy sitting on top of Jerusalem reveals how little he understands the basis of security," Steinitz added.

Former Meretz chairman Yossi Beilin criticized Olmert for having offered such concessions only on the eve of his departure from premiership.

"Olmert has committed the unforgivable sin of revealing his truce stance on Israel's national interest just when he has nothing left to lose," said Beilin.

According to Western and Palestinian officials, Olmert has proposed in peace talks with the Palestinians an Israeli withdrawal from some 93 percent of the West Bank, plus all of the Gaza Strip, from which Israel pulled out in 2005.

The negotiations, which Olmert has vowed to continue until he leaves office when a new government is formed, have shown few signs of progress and both sides acknowledge chances are slim of meeting Washington's target of a deal by the end of the year.

Olmert has also engaged Syria in indirect negotiations with Turkish mediation, but has not remarked publicly on the scope of an Israeli pullout from the Golan Heights.

Olmert has said repeatedly that Israel intends to keep major Jewish settlement blocs in the West Bank in any future peace deal with the Palestinians.

A peace agreement, Olmert has said, would mean Israel would have to compensate the Palestinians for the land it hopes to retain by "close to a 1-to-1 ratio."

In exchange for the settlement enclaves, Olmert has proposed about a 5 percent land swap giving the Palestinians a desert territory adjacent to the Gaza Strip, as well as land on which to build a transit corridor between Gaza and the West Bank.

He has so far put off negotiations on sharing Jerusalem and ruled out a so-called "right of return" for Palestinian refugees, a central Palestinian demand. On both issues, there is strong opposition in Israel to significant concessions.

Olmert, who has stepped down in the face of a possible criminal indictment in a corruption investigation, will remain caretaker prime minister until a new government is approved by parliament.

A week ago, President Shimon Peres asked Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, now leader of Olmert's centrist Kadima party, to try to put together a governing coalition within six weeks. Failure to do so would likely lead to a parliamentary election.

MicroBalrog:

As I said, these cessions are inevitable. Even if Bibi becomes PM. Even if Liberman becomes PM.

The country simply cannot maintain the status-quo any more.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2008, 06:17:32 AM »
East Jerusalem. Then West Jerusalem. Then Tel Aviv. Then...

I guess letting them continue to have the Temple Mount wasn't enough for them. When do they turn over the Wailing Wall so it can be taken apart and used to build a mosque?

Doormats seldom survive. When dealing with a relentlessly demanding sort, each concession will only lead to another demand, ad infinitum. Until there is nothing left.

Oh well.

What happened to ""Masada shall not fall again"? ...Gonna hand that over too?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2008, 06:36:41 AM »
I don't think you quite realize what they mean by East Jerusalem.

The city limits include a variety of Arab villages that have no actual continuity with the city itself - THAT is what comprises the majority of 'East Jerusalem'.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2008, 06:46:48 AM »
Yes, I know what it is.


MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2008, 06:54:07 AM »
Yes. Cede it.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2008, 06:59:32 AM »
Yes. Cede it.

Enjoy when they start shelling from Golan again.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2008, 07:52:34 AM »
Yes. Cede it.

Enjoy when they start shelling from Golan again.

Why do they need to? Most of Israel is already in rocket/arty range from Hezbullah and Syria. These are not the 1970's.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MechAg94

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2008, 08:27:04 AM »
Yes. Cede it.

Enjoy when they start shelling from Golan again.

Why do they need to? Most of Israel is already in rocket/arty range from Hezbullah and Syria. These are not the 1970's.
Exactly what has changed? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2008, 08:28:49 AM »
Yes. Cede it.

Enjoy when they start shelling from Golan again.

Why do they need to? Most of Israel is already in rocket/arty range from Hezbullah and Syria. These are not the 1970's.
Exactly what has changed? 

Longer-range rocket artillery is now in possession of Hez and Syria. According to the government's releases, they can reach slightly south of Dimona with them now.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MechAg94

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2008, 08:34:33 AM »
I guess I meant with the people and political situation.  In other words, what makes you think they won't start shelling with cheaper artillery shells again?
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2008, 08:36:25 AM »
I guess I meant with the people and political situation.  In other words, what makes you think they won't start shelling with cheaper artillery shells again?

For one, the plan seems to be to give the area back *gradually* over a period of 10-15 years, and to stop if they're not living up to their obligations.

Second, Syria is cowardly. They don't even shoot at our planes when we *fly over their country and shoot their soldiers*.

Third, it worked with Egypt and Jordan.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MechAg94

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2008, 08:45:36 AM »
1.  What is Syria's track record for living up to its promises?  Palestinians?

2.  Will the US dump a boat load of money on them like they did Egypt?  Is there oil up in those Heights?
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2008, 09:02:26 AM »
Quote



2.  Will the US dump a boat load of money on them like they did Egypt?  Is there oil up in those Heights?


No. THey're valuable only as an argicultural and tourist resort, and even that is dependent on a stream of subsidies.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2008, 09:09:43 AM »
I guess I meant with the people and political situation.  In other words, what makes you think they won't start shelling with cheaper artillery shells again?

For one, the plan seems to be to give the area back *gradually* over a period of 10-15 years, and to stop if they're not living up to their obligations.

Second, Syria is cowardly. They don't even shoot at our planes when we *fly over their country and shoot their soldiers*.

Third, it worked with Egypt and Jordan.

Syria just declared that the IAEA will have no access to their military bases to inspect.

Have fun.

seeker_two

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2008, 12:27:00 PM »
Quote



2.  Will the US dump a boat load of money on them like they did Egypt?  Is there oil up in those Heights?


No. THey're valuable only as an argicultural and tourist resort, and even that is dependent on a stream of subsidies.

Let's invade....we need the ethanol....  grin
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

De Selby

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2008, 05:14:08 PM »
<div class="quoteheader">Quote from: MicroBalrog on October 03, 2008, 07:36:25 AM</div><div class="quote"><div class="quoteheader">Quote from: MechAg94 on October 03, 2008, 07:34:33 AM</div><div class="quote">I guess I meant with the people and political situation.  In other words, what makes you think they won't start shelling with cheaper artillery shells again?
</div>
For one, the plan seems to be to give the area back *gradually* over a period of 10-15 years, and to stop if they're not living up to their obligations.

Second, Syria is cowardly. They don't even shoot at our planes when we *fly over their country and shoot their soldiers*.

Third, it worked with Egypt and Jordan.
</div>
Syria just declared that the IAEA will have no access to their military bases to inspect.

Have fun.

What's the alternative to a deal?

Another Lebanon war every year until Israel is eventually destroyed? 

The military "solution" has risks that are even more grave than the risk that peace accords won't work.  That's what the "pro Israel" people (I don't believe that they actually represent Israel's interests) in America need to realize.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

richyoung

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2008, 10:15:49 AM »
<div class="quoteheader">Quote from: MechAg94 on October 03, 2008, 07:27:04 AM</div><div class="quote"><div class="quoteheader">Quote from: MicroBalrog on October 03, 2008, 06:52:34 AM</div><div class="quote"><div class="quoteheader">Quote from: Manedwolf on October 03, 2008, 05:59:32 AM</div><div class="quote"><div class="quoteheader">Quote from: MicroBalrog on October 03, 2008, 05:54:07 AM</div><div class="quote">Yes. Cede it.
</div>
Enjoy when they start shelling from Golan again.
</div>
Why do they need to? Most of Israel is already in rocket/arty range from Hezbullah and Syria. These are not the 1970's.
</div>Exactly what has changed? 
</div>
Longer-range rocket artillery is now in possession of Hez and Syria. According to the government's releases, they can reach slightly south of Dimona with them now.

Accuracy of rockets < tube artillery.  Rockets are an area/terror weapon.  Mostly terror when fired in onesees and twosees.  If you want to destroy targets of military signifigance, batteries on the GOlan are huge...
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2008, 10:17:28 AM »
Quote
Accuracy of rockets < tube artillery.  Rockets are an area/terror weapon.

Who died and made guided missiles a terror weapon?

Hez is FAR better armed than the idiots in Gaza.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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richyoung

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2008, 11:43:52 AM »
Quote
Accuracy of rockets < tube artillery.  Rockets are an area/terror weapon.

Who died and made guided missiles a terror weapon?

Hez is FAR better armed than the idiots in Gaza.

The missles lobbed into Israel are 122mm UNGUIDED missles, a la the BM-21 system.  Unguided missles, fired in ones and twos, have been a terror weapon since Germany's V-1 and V-2.  Please note that they are typically armed with ball-bearing anti-personnel warheads, rather than HE or bomblets, which are more suitable to military targets.  They are terror weapons by design and implimentation.

Guided misxsles CAN be a teror weapon, but UNGUIDED ones, when not fired in mass at enemy tactical formations, almost always are.
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roo_ster

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2008, 12:42:47 PM »
One other point folks have not considered:
Cost

Enemy availability of long(er) ranged missiles & arty shells, especially guided examples, is no reason to give up space. 

The cost to obtain such munitions is usually an order of magnitude or two greater vis a vis the more conventional munitions*.

To give you an idea:
Hez/Syria/whomever may be able to drop 10 munitions into your neighborhood from their current positions over a given period of time.  Give up space to them, and you can expect 100 or 1000 cheap munitions versus 10 of the more expensive variety.  Instead of a terrifying nuisance, you now have a devastated neighborhood or infrastructure and serious numbers of casualties to deal with.

Giving up space is a decision that has implications that are not necessarily linear in effect.

For the same reason, the proposed US naval 155mm rapid-fire gun the Navy is planning to equip the DD2000 DDX DD<insert_current_project_name> will not be able to support littoral/shore operations in the bombardment role the same way the old 8", 12", and 16" guns were able to.  The high-cost long range 155mm munitions have neither the effect of the larger munitions and there are many fewer of them.  The heftiest gun any other Navy ships carry is the anemic 5" gun.

But, it seems the US Navy no longer is interested in providing artillery support to the jarheads or dogfaces on shore.  Just not sexy enough, I'd guess.




* For the USA, sometimes paying 10X or 100X the cost per munition is the right answer, given transport costs, limited load outs of military vehicles (stowed kills), & other factors.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2008, 12:44:51 PM »
Quote
Accuracy of rockets < tube artillery.  Rockets are an area/terror weapon.

Who died and made guided missiles a terror weapon?

Hez is FAR better armed than the idiots in Gaza.

The missles lobbed into Israel are 122mm UNGUIDED missles, a la the BM-21 system.  Unguided missles, fired in ones and twos, have been a terror weapon since Germany's V-1 and V-2.  Please note that they are typically armed with ball-bearing anti-personnel warheads, rather than HE or bomblets, which are more suitable to military targets.  They are terror weapons by design and implimentation.

Guided misxsles CAN be a teror weapon, but UNGUIDED ones, when not fired in mass at enemy tactical formations, almost always are.

A mobile artillery unit within range from Golan can do a hell of a lot more damage both in terms of casualities and terror. All they need is a spotter on a cellphone to report range. Once they have range, they can march a line of shells across an entire neighborhood.

richyoung

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2008, 12:54:45 PM »
...or an RPV
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macpherson

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2008, 10:30:35 PM »
I suppose this is the result of 40 years of listening to the arabs' whining, but where does it end for Israel?  Have they forgotten how many lives were lost taking and defending the Golan Heights?  Syria hasn't demonstrated a whole lot of willingness to be a peaceful neighbor, and giving up the golan is akin to rolling over and exposing your underbelly to a potential predator. 

Ben Franklin's quote about giving up liberty for a little temporary safety seems to apply here.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2008, 10:54:28 PM »
Quote
The missles lobbed into Israel are 122mm UNGUIDED missles, a la the BM-21 system

You're confusing Hamas' activities with Hez. Hez has an array of both unguided and long-range guided missiles. They've even hit a Naval ship with one of them (i.e. INS Hanit).
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De Selby

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Re: Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2008, 02:58:58 AM »

Ben Franklin's quote about giving up liberty for a little temporary safety seems to apply here.

It would apply in a way you think it doesn't-the Israelis have sacrificed the most basic liberties to a never-ending "state of emergency" in exchange for illusory security, and, oddly, deprivation of the right to approach the problem as they see fit as a people.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."