Olmert: Israel must quit East Jerusalem and Golan

[MechAg94]

Ben Franklin's quote about giving up liberty for a little temporary safety seems to apply here.

It would apply in a way you think it doesn't-the Israelis have sacrificed the most basic liberties to a never-ending "state of emergency" in exchange for illusory security, and, oddly, deprivation of the right to approach the problem as they see fit as a people.

And who is it that started that precedent for them?  They were attacked on day 1. 

[MicroBalrog]

Ben Franklin's quote about giving up liberty for a little temporary safety seems to apply here.

It would apply in a way you think it doesn't-the Israelis have sacrificed the most basic liberties to a never-ending "state of emergency" in exchange for illusory security, and, oddly, deprivation of the right to approach the problem as they see fit as a people.

And who is it that started that precedent for them?  They were attacked on day 1. 

I'm sure that justifies, say, the existence of the Jewish Division of the GSS.... wait, it doesn't.

[PTK]

It would be a serious mistake for Israel to give up the Golan heights. Strategic location, fought hard for it originally. KEEP IT.

[MicroBalrog]

It would be a serious mistake for Israel to give up the Golan heights. Strategic location, fought hard for it originally. KEEP IT.

It was conquered and annexed specifically to use as a bargaining chip in future negotiations. The time has come.

[Manedwolf]

WORLD HISTORY, 2115 Edition

Israel: A country that existed from 1948 until the early 21st century, when, after repeated concessions and loss of territory, it was finally overrun by its neighbors in a brutal genocide. See also "Second Battle of Masada" and "Tel Aviv Nuclear Detonation."

[MicroBalrog]

What nuclear detonation?

[richyoung]

The missles lobbed into Israel are 122mm UNGUIDED missles, a la the BM-21 system

You're confusing Hamas' activities with Hez. Hez has an array of both unguided and long-range guided missiles. They've even hit a Naval ship with one of them (i.e. INS Hanit).

No - YOU are confused.  You are confusing a handful of ultra-expensive anti-ship guided missles (CS-802s)with "Longer-range rocket artillery", (your words).  The two are not the same, nor are they used for the same targets.

[MicroBalrog]

The missles lobbed into Israel are 122mm UNGUIDED missles, a la the BM-21 system

You're confusing Hamas' activities with Hez. Hez has an array of both unguided and long-range guided missiles. They've even hit a Naval ship with one of them (i.e. INS Hanit).

No - YOU are confused.  You are confusing a handful of ultra-expensive anti-ship guided missles (CS-802s)with "Longer-range rocket artillery", (your words).  The two are not the same, nor are they used for the same targets.

The Hez now has a full-range of rocketry. They have Smerch-type rockets, they have guided (and not at all expensive) Fajr missiles, they have missiles of all shapes and sizes. They are now FAR better armed than they were before the war. They can hit anything they want to hit.

[richyoung]

The missles lobbed into Israel are 122mm UNGUIDED missles, a la the BM-21 system

You're confusing Hamas' activities with Hez. Hez has an array of both unguided and long-range guided missiles. They've even hit a Naval ship with one of them (i.e. INS Hanit).

No - YOU are confused.  You are confusing a handful of ultra-expensive anti-ship guided missles (CS-802s)with "Longer-range rocket artillery", (your words).  The two are not the same, nor are they used for the same targets.

The Hez now has a full-range of rocketry. They have Smerch-type rockets, they have guided (and not at all expensive) Fajr missiles, they have missiles of all shapes and sizes. They are now FAR better armed than they were before the war. They can hit anything they want to hit.

The backbone of their arsenal is still Katusha type rockets.  Anything of greater range and accuracy is:
A.  supplied by Iran in small numbers, and..
B.  quite probably under the direct control of Iranian liason officers, especially the 30 or so FROG-7 derivatives.

This is not much of a handicap to Hez, as the rocket artillery is not generally used to engage military targets, but rather retaliatory harrasing fire over population centers ("terror attacks")- which, on a good day, present them with a large enough target to hit, most of the time.  Fajr missles are not guided, with the exception of the ASM verserion of the Fajr-5:  they are unguided ballistic artillery rockets - a product-improved Katusha.  There ARE NO inexpensive guided rockets. 

[De Selby]

The missles lobbed into Israel are 122mm UNGUIDED missles, a la the BM-21 system

You're confusing Hamas' activities with Hez. Hez has an array of both unguided and long-range guided missiles. They've even hit a Naval ship with one of them (i.e. INS Hanit).

No - YOU are confused.  You are confusing a handful of ultra-expensive anti-ship guided missles (CS-802s)with "Longer-range rocket artillery", (your words).  The two are not the same, nor are they used for the same targets.

The Hez now has a full-range of rocketry. They have Smerch-type rockets, they have guided (and not at all expensive) Fajr missiles, they have missiles of all shapes and sizes. They are now FAR better armed than they were before the war. They can hit anything they want to hit.

The backbone of their arsenal is still Katusha type rockets.  Anything of greater range and accuracy is:
A.  supplied by Iran in small numbers, and..
B.  quite probably under the direct control of Iranian liason officers, especially the 30 or so FROG-7 derivatives.

This is not much of a handicap to Hez, as the rocket artillery is not generally used to engage military targets, but rather retaliatory harrasing fire over population centers ("terror attacks")- which, on a good day, present them with a large enough target to hit, most of the time.  Fajr missles are not guided, with the exception of the ASM verserion of the Fajr-5:  they are unguided ballistic artillery rockets - a product-improved Katusha.  There ARE NO inexpensive guided rockets. 

Wait a second here-how did you measure the proportion of Hezbollah hits on military targets when that information is not public???

You do realize that the military reviews and censors the press in Israel as a part of the never-ending "state of emergency", right?

[richyoung]

Wait a second here-how did you measure the proportion of Hezbollah hits on military targets when that information is not public???

Allow me to introduce myself.  I work on Fort Sill - the home of the free world's artillery.  My job is to model the effects of artillery systems in computer simulations, and when those simulations are running, to function as an opposition forces interator.  I control the "bad guys".  Since I "employ" the BM-14, BM-21, Bm-22, BM-27, ASTROS, etc, as well as help develop their parameters in the simulation, I am quite familiar with their capabilites, as published in Jane's Armor and Artillery, the FAS website, Army "Red Thrust Star" opfor publications, Russian sales phamplets, captured equipment tests, defecting officer debriefs, etc, etc, etc.  Read my lips - they are AREA ATTACK WEAPONS - at least, when you are firing bomblet or HE warheads, and several truckloads at once.  Lobbing BB rounds in the general vicinity of a populated area is a terror tactic - BBs aren't going to do anything against armored vehicles or dug-in troops.  Works good on grade school children, though.

You do realize that the military reviews and censors the press in Israel as a part of the never-ending "state of emergency", right?

You do realize there are a number of services and publications, such as Jane's Defense Weekly, Stratford, etc, etc, etc that charge a pretty penny for their objective analysis of just such situations, right?

[De Selby]

You do realize there are a number of services and publications, such as Jane's Defense Weekly, Stratford, etc, etc, etc that charge a pretty penny for their objective analysis of just such situations, right?

Yep-and any report they create in Israel is censored by the military, just like ALL reporting concerning defense from Israel.

No researcher/press agent/reporter of any kind is allowed in Israel without submitting to the mandatory censorship regime run by the military.

Doesn't matter which service or publication you pick-the source data is censored, not the end publication of the data.

That's part of the "state of emergency" that the original marxist/leninist leadership of Israel instituted in 1948 and never lifted.

Edit: An example to illustrate...this is a guy who was deprived of his liberty for letting it out that the Israeli government was mishandling nuclear material:  http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2005/mar/12/israel.broadcasting

Like you said....sacrificing liberty for security is a bum deal.  We agree on that.

[MicroBalrog]

You forget administrative arrests. And random phonetapping. And torture. And polite brutality. And violation of property rights. And the military draft.

[roo_ster]

SS:

There are other sources of this data than via Israeli-gov't controlled channels.

And some of the data that is culled from general distribution is also available if'n you ask "pretty please with sugar on top."

RY's basic point was that you can no more aim at a military target from 1000s of meters away with an unguided, indirect-fire rocket wiht indifferent quality control than you can aim a horse shoe at a specific oxygen molecule from across the barn yard.

[richyoung]

Well put, jfruser.  Also, I somehow doubt the ability of "the jews" to censor Jane's, Nat'l Defense Weekly, Stratford International, etc, etc, etc.

 SS, you got some sort of agenda?

[De Selby]

Well put, jfruser.  Also, I somehow doubt the ability of "the jews" to censor Jane's, Nat'l Defense Weekly, Stratford International, etc, etc, etc.

 SS, you got some sort of agenda?

Nice implication of a conspiracy theory link to this, but yeah, you can ask the resident Israeli on this forum if I'm wrong about the censorship law, which is quite public.  Maybe some find ways to gather information without entering Israel or illegally, but certainly that isn't the best way to do it or a guarantor of accuracy.

My agenda, btw, is American style freedoms.

[richyoung]

Nice implication of a conspiracy theory link to this, but yeah, you can ask the resident Israeli on this forum if I'm wrong about the censorship law, which is quite public.  Maybe some find ways to gather information without entering Israel or illegally, but certainly that isn't the best way to do it or a guarantor of accuracy.

My agenda, btw, is American style freedoms.

Don't know if you've noticed, but in times of war, America doesn't have American style freedom.  As for the quality of the information the sources I've listed supply - if they weren't very, very accurate, governments and corporations would have quit paying for their services a long time ago.

[De Selby]

Don't know if you've noticed, but in times of war, America doesn't have American style freedom.  As for the quality of the information the sources I've listed supply - if they weren't very, very accurate, governments and corporations would have quit paying for their services a long time ago.

The best available still faces censorship-the problem isn't the publication, it's the source.

But yeah, I do notice a depressing trend towards sacrificing liberty for security, even though (as you agree) it is a bum deal.

The people who came up with the line about liberty for security made it up in the middle of a war between farmers and the most powerful nation on earth.  Yet somehow today we've managed to allow ourselves to believe that the dynamics have changed, and that we have no choice but to give up our freedoms to the state whenever it declares an emergency?

[MicroBalrog]

The best available still faces censorship-the problem isn't the publication, it's the source.

You're both right (or, if you prefer it, you're both wrong).

It is true that Israel censors the media. Merely working as a journalist requires a license that costs several thousand shekels.

However, foreign sources like Jane's are famous for acquiring correct information from places like the Soviet Union.

That said, it is completely bizarre to me that Americans remain fascinated about Israel's society and culture.

Where America was founded by guys like Jefferson and Washington, Israel was founded by raving commies that thought Lenin was awesome. That's not a controversial statement, that's a historical fact.

It is a fact that Israel's policy WRT the rights of individuals is to this day shaped by their visions of mamlachtiut - that's statism in English.

Had the American government tried to impose on its citizens HALF of the stuff that's done in Israel, there would be rioting in the streets.

[richyoung]

You're both right (or, if you prefer it, you're both wrong).

It is true that Israel censors the media. Merely working as a journalist requires a license that costs several thousand shekels.

However, foreign sources like Jane's are famous for acquiring correct information from places like the Soviet Union.

That said, it is completely bizarre to me that Americans remain fascinated about Israel's society and culture.

Where America was founded by guys like Jefferson and Washington, Israel was founded by raving commies that thought Lenin was awesome. That's not a controversial statement, that's a historical fact.

It is a fact that Israel's policy WRT the rights of individuals is to this day shaped by their visions of mamlachtiut - that's statism in English.

Had the American government tried to impose on its citizens HALF of the stuff that's done in Israel, there would be rioting in the streets.

Agreed - the sad thing is the american taxpayer gets to subsidize it.  Were Israel to go to free-market capitalism, they would be economically stronger, and less needy.