Author Topic: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil  (Read 50742 times)

makattak

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2010, 07:37:40 PM »
It looks like you have sailed past the point - my comment was on all the moral outrage at these greenies for their crimes, which exist solely in international law, versus the "eh, whatever, whaling laws are just international and that's meaningless" for the Japanese.

You could just as easily say "You may have a bigger ship, but you're going to get lasered/stink-bombed/obstructed if you want to illegally hunt whales."

fistful,

That would be a good argument for disarming Fish & Wildlife officers (game isn't worth human life) and making all poaching and other resource theft administrative offences like a traffic ticket.

This is a natural resource, it does not belong to Japan, and the rest of the world would like to see it protected.  There's simply no way to compare greenies blocking whaling to the standard eco-terrorism of the tree-spikers.

What I see in this discussion is politics as club membership more than anything else: because these greenies tend to be leftists, they must be opposed at every turn, and conversely, anyone who tangles with them must be supported.

 "Whatever my enemy supports I oppose, and whatever he opposes I support" appears to be the rule at play here.

Alright then,
What law are the whalers breaking?

Secondly, if you think the whalers are breaking a law, why aren't the other countries who are party to that treaty objecting?

Third, on what basis are you claiming the whales they are hunting are endangered?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

sanglant

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2010, 07:37:51 PM »
Dude. Limpit mines!? WTF?! Wow. That is interesting. Haven't heard that one. I wonder if they'll ever be able to pin that on the responsible party. (Trying not to assume responsibility.)

is William Charles "Bill" Ayers in prison? [tinfoil] same bunch of kooks [popcorn]

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2010, 07:39:14 PM »
It looks like you have sailed past the point - my comment was on all the moral outrage at these greenies for their crimes, which exist solely in international law, versus the "eh, whatever, whaling laws are just international and that's meaningless" for the Japanese.
The moral outrage against the eco terrorists doesn't have anything to do with "international law".  If you think it does, you completely misunderstand it.

Behaving the way these eco terrorists do is reprehensible in itself.  International law is entirely coincidental to that fact.

I would suggest that your obsession with the law renders you unable to think clearly on issues like this one.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 07:48:24 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2010, 07:40:01 PM »
what other countries do whaling?  and why is ss focused on the japanese?  is it racism? there are round eye whalers too after all
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2010, 07:40:41 PM »
I saw a guy jaywalking today, so of course I ran him over. Gotta obey the law, and if you don't you deserve whatever you get. Especially international "law." Which, you know, the Japanese aren't actually breaking.

Also, nice to see SS in his usual progress from "provably false claims" to "absurd justifications" right on through to "character assassination" with a healthy dose of accusing his opponents of his own prejudices thrown in for good measure.

You really are a good lawyer SS.
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Balog

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2010, 07:41:22 PM »
I saw a guy jaywalking today, so of course I ran him over. Gotta obey the law, and if you don't you deserve whatever you get. Especially international "law." Which, you know, the Japanese aren't actually breaking.

Also, nice to see SS in his usual progress from "provably false claims" to "absurd justifications" right on through to "character assassination" and "trying to bring in irrelevant arguments" with a healthy dose of accusing his opponents of his own prejudices thrown in for good measure.

You really are a good lawyer SS.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

makattak

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2010, 07:46:27 PM »
I saw a guy jaywalking today, so of course I ran him over. Gotta obey the law, and if you don't you deserve whatever you get. Especially international "law." Which, you know, the Japanese aren't actually breaking.

Also, nice to see SS in his usual progress from "provably false claims" to "absurd justifications" right on through to "character assassination" with a healthy dose of accusing his opponents of his own prejudices thrown in for good measure.

You really are a good lawyer SS.

When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the law is on your side, pound the law. When neither are on your side, pound the table.

Nice pounding the table SS.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

lupinus

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2010, 07:47:38 PM »
what other countries do whaling?  and why is ss focused on the japanese?  is it racism? there are round eye whalers too after all
Plenty of other countries whale.

However, the Japanese are the only one's whose navy can not protect their nations fishing fleet from pirates. Hence, they make easy targets.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2010, 07:49:19 PM »
I would suggest that your obsession with the law renders you unable to think clearly on issues like this one.

Or possibly his obsession with being a knee-jerk liberal on virtually all issues? 

De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2010, 07:51:00 PM »
Alright then,
What law are the whalers breaking?
http://www.iwcoffice.org/commission/convention.htm this one, and

this  one: http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml

Quote
Secondly, if you think the whalers are breaking a law, why aren't the other countries who are party to that treaty objecting?

They are - particularly those with the greatest interest in these waters, Australia and New Zealand.  

Quote
Third, on what basis are you claiming the whales they are hunting are endangered?

Where did I claim that? Certainly some whales killed are endangered, but the real issue is that the rest of the world has decided on protecting this animal at law.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2010, 07:53:55 PM »
Surely at least one other person sees the irony in saying, on the one hand, "pfft, international law, whatever, whale-on mates! There's no such thing!" and the turning around and having taken the deepest offence at "piracy" and a host of other international law crimes committed by environmentalists!?

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Northwoods

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2010, 07:56:38 PM »

Yes, because hunting endangered/threatened species is the exact same thing as hunting deer. 

What species of whale do the Japanese hunt, and what is the basis for claiming that such are endangered?

I don't know specifically what the Japanese hunt, but the Norweigans hunt Minke whales.  They are about as endangered as deer.  And the Norweigans, according a Norweigan I knew, are heavilly penalized if they take anything else.  Now, if the Japanese are taking endagered whales, that is not right.  But it still doesn't justify the eco-terrorist hippie's actions.
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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2010, 07:57:06 PM »
http://www.iwcoffice.org/commission/convention.htm this one, and

this  one: http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml

They are - particularly those with the greatest interest in these waters, Australia and New Zealand.  

Where did I claim that? Certainly some whales killed are endangered, but the real issue is that the rest of the world has decided on protecting this animal at law.


were you hoping no one would read those documents? fail
there is a reason that there has been no court case for your fantasy "violation of law"

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1686486,00.html
It's a ritual that boils the blood of whale-watchers everywhere. On Nov. 18, a fleet of four Japanese vessels left Shimonoseki harbor in Western Japan to begin its five-month whale hunt in the Antarctic Ocean. This time, however, the whalers are planning what's expected to be its largest hunt in decades; along with about 850 minke and 50 finback whales, the fleet says it plans to harpoon as many as 50 humpback whales for the first time since hunting the endangered species was banned in 1963.

The escalation of the hunt, and the inclusion of humpbacks, has drawn condemnation from leading anti-whaling countries, including Australia, New Zealand, Britain and the U.S. JAPANESE WHALERS WON'T SAY IF THEY'LL SPARE MIGALOO, screamed one Australian headline, referring to an albino humpback occasionally spotted off the Australian coast who has become a popular tourist attraction. With an upcoming general election, the issue has become heavily politicized in Australia; the opposition Labor party's campaign platform includes a proposal to mobilize military aircraft to monitor Japanese whaling fleets. But Japan has said it needs to recommence hunting one of conservationists' most beloved species to further marine research. "Whales are just as important, and no more special, than any other fish," says Japan Fisheries Agency spokesperson Hideki Moronuki, maintaining Japan's long-held position that marine mammals should get no special treatment for being warm-blooded. Japan maintains that with a population of around 40,000 growing at 15% a year, the formerly endangered humpback has recovered to a sustainable level for lethal research. Anti-whalers, on the other hand, simply see this as raw defiance. "They're just doing this to show us that they can," says Paul Watson, founder of the anti-whaling Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

Under a loophole in the 1986 International Whaling Commission (IWC) ban against commercial whaling, Japan has continued to kill hundreds of whales every year for scientific research. Once a whale is killed, scientists collect data from the animal's remains on its age, birthing rate and diet; the meat is then packaged and sold. Japan maintains that the research is essential for managing the whale population. "Minke or humpback, we see whales as a marine resource," says Moronuki. Still, most observers have long been skeptical of any benefits from the project. "I haven't met one person, pro-whalers or not, outside of the Fisheries Agency payroll who believe that these researches are useful," says Greenpeace Australia Pacific's CEO Steve Shallhorn. Tensions have been heating up in recent hunts. In February, a member of Japan's whaling fleet was killed in a ship fire following a series of confrontations with vessels from Sea Shepherd. Both Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd say that they are prepared to "chase, block, and harass" any attempts by the whaling fleet to harpoon humpbacks.

Japan has cited its long history as a whaling nation and its historic reliance on whale meat for protein as reasons why it should be continued to allow to hunt despite the IWC ban. But Japanese consumption has become so negligible that local governments are encouraging schools to incorporate whale in their lunch programs, while thousands of tons of whale meat remain stockpiled in freezers. The bigger issue, observers say, is whaling's impact on far more popular forms of seafood. Japan, which consumes half of the world's tuna catch, recently admitted to exceeding its quota for southern bluefin tuna set under an agreement with Australia and New Zealand, as overfishing threatens to decimate the animal's population. Plunging global fish stocks, along with a growing taste for sushi in China and the West, make Japan very uneasy about its future access to fresh seafood. So holding a firm line on the sustainable harvesting of whales, the argument goes, can help stave off a larger fight over more important fishing rights down the road. Says Moronuki: "Our whaling culture is near extinction because of the moratorium on commercial whaling. We need to make sure this doesn't happen to other marine resources."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1686486,00.html#ixzz0bsqPQ5M3
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2010, 07:59:35 PM »
Surely at least one other person sees the irony in saying, on the one hand, "pfft, international law, whatever, whale-on mates! There's no such thing!" and the turning around and having taken the deepest offence at "piracy" and a host of other international law crimes committed by environmentalists!?

You still have the cart in front of the horse, with your obsession with the law.  Piracy isn't immoral because it's a violation of international law.  Piracy is a violation of international law because it's immoral.  Wrap your head around that concept and you'll begin to understand.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2010, 08:03:49 PM »
so under law in oz when the fraud in the vest with the badge gets some of those fools with him killed does he get charges or a parade as a hero of the revolution? and does bob barker get charged as an accessory for financing the crime?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2010, 08:05:17 PM »
You still have the cart in front of the horse, with your obsession with the law.  Piracy isn't immoral because it's a violation of international law.  Piracy is a violation of international law because it's immoral.  Wrap your head around that concept and you'll begin to understand.

Ah yes,  I see now: those laws that HTG agrees capture moral imperatives will be supported, and those that do not will not be supported.

The problem with that is that none of us infallible on moral matters, particularly not when speaking ex-internet.  Certainly there are many people in this world (a majority even) who think that killing endangered animals like some whales is seriously immoral.  But their views don't count, because they might be leftists/greenies/whatever it is.  Again, that returns us to politics as club membership, as opposed to politics based on a reasonable evaluation of the issues.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

makattak

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2010, 08:09:41 PM »
Ah yes,  I see now: those laws that HTG agrees capture moral imperatives will be supported, and those that do not will not be supported.

The problem with that is that none of us infallible on moral matters, particularly not when speaking ex-internet.  Certainly there are many people in this world (a majority even) who think that killing endangered animals like some whales is seriously immoral.  But their views don't count, because they might be leftists/greenies/whatever it is.  Again, that returns us to politics as club membership, as opposed to politics based on a reasonable evaluation of the issues.


Thank you for answering my question and your own:


Where did I claim that? Certainly some whales killed are endangered, but the real issue is that the rest of the world has decided on protecting this animal at law.

Soooooo... want to drop your "endangered whales" claim, now? You just implied these laws are moral because they stop killing of endangered animals. Now, can you show the whales the Japanese are hunting are endangered?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2010, 08:11:10 PM »
so under law in oz when the fraud in the vest with the badge gets some of those fools with him killed does he get charges or a parade as a hero of the revolution? and does bob barker get charged as an accessory for financing the crime?

Certainly charges would be possible in such a scenario - but it would be difficult, given the level of popular outrage at the illegal whaling.  That's the reverse side of the club membership issue.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2010, 08:14:18 PM »
A question: How is it possible for there to be vigilantism on international waters if there is no such thing as international law?

You're mixing together the disparate arguments of two people.

I said there's no such thing as international law.  I think it was Fistful that said you were endorsing vigilantism.

HTG has it right:

You still have the cart in front of the horse, with your obsession with the law.  Piracy isn't immoral because it's a violation of international law.  Piracy is a violation of international law because it's immoral.  Wrap your head around that concept and you'll begin to understand.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2010, 08:20:28 PM »
A question: How is it possible for there to be vigilantism on international waters if there is no such thing as international law?

You're the one who said that breaking international "law" is a crime.  And you endorsed vigilante action to stop it, even if it endangers peoples' lives for alleged poaching. 

Sorry, you don't have a point there. 

As others have pointed out about piracy, going about attacking people is generally regarded as a Very Bad Thing, regardless of what international law or governing body may or may not condemn it.  To compare such a thing to whale poaching in international waters is absurd on its face. 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2010, 08:27:05 PM »
Certainly charges would be possible in such a scenario - but it would be difficult, given the level of popular outrage at the illegal whaling.  That's the reverse side of the club membership issue.


no its exactly the same   just that its your club therefore its feces carry no aroma.   you are indeed morally well equipped for the practice of law
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2010, 08:28:30 PM »
Ah yes,  I see now: those laws that HTG agrees capture moral imperatives will be supported, and those that do not will not be supported.

The problem with that is that none of us infallible on moral matters, particularly not when speaking ex-internet.  Certainly there are many people in this world (a majority even) who think that killing endangered animals like some whales is seriously immoral.  But their views don't count, because they might be leftists/greenies/whatever it is.  Again, that returns us to politics as club membership, as opposed to politics based on a reasonable evaluation of the issues.

So my morals are fallible, but your laws are infallible?  Gimme a break.

And it amuses me that in your mind morality is nothing more than political club membership.

You wanna evaluate the issues?  Well, I do too.  Actually, that's what we were doing that before you came along and spewed international law all over the place.  But anyway, let's get back to the issues.

At its simplest, this issue comes down to a simple question of worth:  are animal lives worth more than human lives?  I say human lives are worth more.

You could also think of it in terms of practicality:  does it make good sense to drive your flimsy beer-can speed boat (actually, I bet beer cans are stronger than that carbon fiber bat boat thing) into a solid iron juggernaut in the middle of Arctic waters?  I say that's a dumb dumb dumb idea.

Or you could think about it in terms of common sense:  trying to mess up a ship at see will probably be frowned upon by the crew of that ship, who may well treat you as the pirates you are, and act out in their own best interests by protecting their ship and their lives.  I say piracy is wrong, bad, stupid, and likely to result on hostile actions on the part those who don't want to be pirated.

So, without mentioning the-law-as-you-see-it, what say you on the issues?

Balog

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2010, 09:30:34 PM »
SS ignores the point that they are, in fact, abiding by the "law." Exploiting a loophole != violation. So all one cares about is the fiction of "international law" then the Japs are shiny clean.

Also SS, what does international law say about attacking a vessel at sea, trying to entangle their prop, blind the crew with a laser etc?
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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2010, 09:33:18 PM »
It says run their asses over!  :laugh:
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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2010, 09:35:10 PM »
The problem with that is that none of us infallible on moral matters, particularly not when speaking ex-internet.

Speak for yourself, Sir. With regard to moral matters, I AM infallible.

Unfortunately for me and fortunately for the rest of the world, morals are exceedingly relativistic, and therefore I can be infallible with regard to what is moral or immoral for me, while someone else can live according to much different rules while still being infallible as to what is moral or immoral for him/her.
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