Author Topic: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?  (Read 4281 times)

Waitone

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Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« on: September 01, 2014, 04:39:01 PM »
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/08/why-use-of-a-gun-can-be-lawful-even-against-an-unarmed-person/

A really clear article on the use of deadly force.  In Political Place because it analyzes Zimmerman and Ferguson.

Does APS have a reference library 'cause if it did this articles merits selection.
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2014, 04:56:55 PM »
I'd say yes, depending on the circumstances. Haven't read the link yet, but disparity of force comes to mind.
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Tallpine

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2014, 05:18:01 PM »
I would say "no" except I guess there's always the possibility of him kicking you to death  =|
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2014, 05:21:15 PM »
Yes here


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wmenorr67

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2014, 05:52:06 PM »
The key words are "In fear of your life."
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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2014, 06:07:26 PM »
Can you use a gun against a supposedly "unarmed" person?

Hell yes you can.

Anybody who claims that an "unarmed" man is harmless and therefore you could never legally shoot him lives in a fantasy world, and has never been in a fight before.

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brimic

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2014, 06:33:32 PM »
Can you use a gun against a supposedly "unarmed" person?

Hell yes you can.

Anybody who claims that an "unarmed" man is harmless and therefore you could never legally shoot him lives in a fantasy world, and has never been in a fight before.


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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2014, 06:44:26 PM »
I have a bone-like growth in a sinus cavity close enough to my optic nerve and jugular vein such that, if I were punched in the face,  I could be blinded or bleed to death. If somebody starts punching me in the face, I'll shoot. I would hope an attorney could use expert witnesses to get me off.

lee n. field

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2014, 06:48:19 PM »
Quote
Can you use a gun (in self defense) against a supposedly "unarmed" person?

Hell yes you can.

I'm going to have to go with that as well.

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Fly320s

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2014, 07:35:20 PM »
To answer the title question: Yes.  Duh.

Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy. 
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Waitone

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2014, 08:07:53 PM »
Anyone actually read the article yet?
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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2014, 08:21:50 PM »
Anyone actually read the article yet?

I did. It affirmed what I already knew. Of course, I have an interest in that subject whereas the general public has an interest in the inside of their own butts. 
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2014, 08:23:47 PM »
The key words are "In fear of your life."

"Fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death." is the use-of-deadly-force criteria in Texas.  It gets drilled into you about a jillion times during CHL cert training.

Brad
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 08:27:17 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Fly320s

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2014, 09:13:01 PM »
"Fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death." is the use-of-deadly-force criteria in Texas.  It gets drilled into you about a jillion times during CHL cert training.

Brad

To pick nits:  "Having a fear" isn't a good enough standard because some people are afraid of everything and everyone.  Just because Jumpy Jane is afraid of all black people doesn't mean she can shoot every black person she comes across.  There still has to be ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.
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SteveS

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2014, 09:23:56 PM »
"Fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death." is the use-of-deadly-force criteria in Texas.  It gets drilled into you about a jillion times during CHL cert training.

Brad

Yep.

This is the common law rule and the statutory rule in most every state (though it also includes rape). There is an objective and subjective component. The person defending themselves must have a fear and this fear must be reasonable. If other people, such as the jury, don't feel your fear or actions were reasonable, then your self-defense claim won't fly.

As for using lethal force against and unarmed person, this really isn't anything new. There are plenty of instances where people have done this and charges were never filed or they were acquitted.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2014, 09:39:59 PM »
To pick nits:  "Having a fear" isn't a good enough standard because some people are afraid of everything and everyone.  Just because Jumpy Jane is afraid of all black people doesn't mean she can shoot every black person she comes across.  There still has to be ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

Thus the all-important "imminent" and "serious bodily injury or death" modifiers.  If those two criteria aren't met then use of deadly force is no bueno, putting you on the receiving end of a criminal prosecution.

Brad
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2014, 09:54:31 PM »
To pick nits:  "Having a fear" isn't a good enough standard because some people are afraid of everything and everyone.  Just because Jumpy Jane is afraid of all black people doesn't mean she can shoot every black person she comes across.  There still has to be ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

The "reasonable person" standard comes into play.
In my case, while I'm fairly healthy I have a few issues. Bad knee, bad back, couple of bad shoulders. I'm not about to go toe to toe against an unprovoked assailant.
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Fly320s

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2014, 09:59:28 PM »
Thus the all-important "imminent" and "serious bodily injury or death" modifiers.  If those two criteria aren't met then use of deadly force is no bueno, putting you on the receiving end of a criminal prosecution.

Brad

Agreed.  I quoted the wrong text.  Sorry.
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Tallpine

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2014, 10:27:18 PM »
Anyone actually read the article yet?

I started but didn't finish ...   =(
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2014, 10:30:22 PM »
Agreed.  I quoted the wrong text.  Sorry.

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2014, 10:52:02 PM »
To pick nits:  "Having a fear" isn't a good enough standard because some people are afraid of everything and everyone.  Just because Jumpy Jane is afraid of all black people doesn't mean she can shoot every black person she comes across.  There still has to be ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

No, there does not have to be ability, opportunity, and jeopardy. Look in the use of deadly force statutes for any state and you won't find the words "ability," "opportunity," or "jeopardy." What you will find is pretty much what Brad cited from Texas law: "Fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death." I've seen at least one state that used the word "grievous" instead of "serious," but the intent is the same.

The way that plays out in not resulting in localized free fire zones around nervous Nellies is that the phrase is usually preceded by  the word "reasonably," as in "the actor reasonably fears death or imminent bodily harm ..." What that means is, in court the shooter's story that he (or she) was in fear of death or serious injury is subjected to what the lawyers call the "reasonable man" test. All that is, is to have the members of the jury ask themselves if a hypothetical "reasonable man" would have had the same perception of fear under the same circumstances.

And because this determination depends on the totality of the circumstances, there simply can't be any hard and fast rule as to when you can or can't use deadly force to defend yourself. The best you can do is read the law in your state, understand it, and do your best to avoid having to test it in court.
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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2014, 11:13:12 PM »
Obviously, if the assailant is unarmed, a gun would escalate the situation, so you can only use a taserer or mace gas.
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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2014, 12:23:15 AM »
"Fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death." is the use-of-deadly-force criteria in Texas.  It gets drilled into you about a jillion times during CHL cert training.

Brad
Yes, and there was a test case in the 90's from Dallas I think where a guy shot a bigger man who was laying into him with fists.  It was proven in court that fists can cause serious bodily injury.  The guy was acquitted.  I think it was a road rage incident where two commercial trucks bumped mirrors on a jammed freeway.  The defendant jumped out and started his accident report and the other guy started hitting him against his door.  He managed to reach into his truck to get his pistol and shot the guy. 
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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2014, 12:35:32 AM »
I started but didn't finish ...   =(

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Re: Can You Use a Gun Against an Unarmed Person?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2014, 09:02:30 AM »
This is another situation where "can" and "should" are two different things.  By that I mean that under the law, as mentioned above, an armed person can validly fire in self defense against an "unarmed" assailant.  Where the problem occurs is with the jury.  I've seen mention above that people think in terms of "just a fist fight."  Television and the movies all too often show a guy getting kicked full force in the side of the head, jumping to his feet, and suffering no ill effects.  Reality isn't so easy.  The problem is that a jury is made up of people, many of whom were educated on issues of violence by television and movies.  Hollywood rarely shows the hero getting punched once in the face, knocked unconscious, and suffering a concussion or worse as a result.  This creates a real problem for an armed citizen who goes to a gun against fists and/or feet.  It may be difficult to convince a jury otherwise.
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