Author Topic: Reform Jews Clueless On Guns  (Read 20188 times)

matis

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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2005, 09:18:42 AM »
Antibubba said:
If I'm this much of a blot on Judaism, I might as well go get Baptized, right?
_____________________________________________________________

Antibubba, you can be very funny!


Nope, not a blot.  Guys like you (and me) are not blots on Judaism.

Chassidim (Orthodox) teach that every Jew is the same to G-d.  (He may be crying, though, 'cause you've misplaced your GPS unit {grin}).


But they also teach something else about guys like us.  I'm not sure you'll like it.  In fact I can almost hear you snorting.


Early in our friendship, I asked my Rabbi:  "Why do you keep insisting that if the Temple stood today, I would NOT be stoned to death for my disbelief and inobservance?"


His answer deeply affected me.  He said that long ago, our sages wrote that Jews like you and I, Antibubba, were to be treated as people who were kidnapped as babies and brought up as gentiles.  We were not to be blamed.

Another way they say the same thing is that we are as prisoners -- of the galut (diaspora).  We were robbed of our identities.  We don't know who we are.


Now, it's easy for our egos to reject this way of looking at it.  And I myself am certainly very far from ego-less.  Yet I love this further evidence of the wisdom of Judaism.

(On the other hand, we're not supposed to use this as an excuse, either.)


Nobody is accusing you, Antibubba.  You seem to get p/ssed at me from time to time.  But I don't think it's real.  'Cause, all I feel for you is affection.



matis
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SalukiFan

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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2005, 10:17:39 AM »
Im right there with you Antibubba.  The True Jew debate seems to be a popular topic whenever anything vaguely Jewish comes up.  The baptism crack made me laugh and shake my head at the same time - sometimes I feel like that too...

Quote from: The Rabbi
Nothing is going to persuade those people.  Merely expressing displeasure is about as much as I can get in.
Well Rabbi, if you just wanted to vent and exprees displeasure rather than persuade, you succeeded admirably.  

Quote from: The Rabbi
I disagree that liberal strains have given Jews something rather than nothing.  It is like a person with a bad infection who goes to a witch doctor instead of taking antibiotics.  He thinks he is getting treated when in fact his actions make the condition worse.  If he did nothing he would at least know he was doing nothing.  In any case the difference between Orthodoxy and liberal versions of Judaism has nothing to do with the number of mitzvos performed.  More, not all Orthodoxy is hassidism and there is plenty of diversity in the Orthodox camp.
As far as your criticism of my comments and questions to matis:

1.   Let me see.  Didnt we just have a conversation on the theological philosophy thread where you protested that you were hurt and offended that I joked that you wanted everyone to be Orthodox like you?  Ah yes, here it is:
Quote from: The Rabbi
I take exception that you think I want you to be Orthodox just like me.  That is not so.  There are many fine people who are Orthodox not like me and that's fine too.
Have you changed your mind since then or is there a misunderstanding?

2.   I understand the diversity of Orthodoxy.  I merely referred to the Chassidim in my post because I was tailoring my message to matis.  I remembered that he had mentioned before that his ex-wife and daughter were Chasidic and that he had expressed great respect for Chasidism so I thought that would be relevant for him.

Matis,
  Thank you for your thoughtful reply.  I doubt that we will ever see eye-to-eye on Jewish issues but I appreciate that you seem to have thought long and hard about your beliefs.  

As far as the study goes, I am familiar with the study and its conclusions.  Just so you know however, it was not actually a study that followed people for 100 years, it was based on some extrapolations of statistical data from the 1990 National Jewish population study, a New York Jewish Population study in 1991 and a few other studies.  

The actual numbers for the Chassidim were about 2600 after 4 generations, about 350 for the Orthodox, 24 for the Conservative, 13 for the Reform and 5 for the secular Jews but that was pretty good from memory!

As a sociologist and a Jew, I am interested in how this mathematical prediction was interpreted.  The authors of the study link the successful passing on of Jewish tradition to the number of years children attend Jewish day school rather than Orthodox belief per se.  If anything, I consider it more important to use this prediction to impress on parents the need to give their child a thorough Jewish education rather than have conversion to Orthodoxy as the only option for having Jewish grandchildren.  

I have friends and acquaintances from pretty much every Jewish movement.  Of them, my Reform friends who are dating, are all dating other Jews.  One of my good friends, who is Conservative, just called a couple weeks ago to tell me he was getting married to a nice Jewish girl (Mazel tov Marty!).  My friends that attend Chabad arent dating anyone yet, but the hunt for a Jewish husband is getting fierce.  I know that this is anecdotal evidence but it seems to me that the common denominator here is that Jews that are religious and active in the Jewish community seek out, date and marry other Jews.  

If the Reform or Conservative movements seem to have a lot of intermarriage, I would argue that it is mostly a function of those movements being more welcoming to the High Holy Days only crowd (who usually pull their kids out of religious education right after their bar or bat mitzvah).  I think if you looked at the actual observance level rather than affiliation labels, the predicted numbers wouldnt be nearly as grim.  One can make dire predictions about the likelihood of an average Jew in a certain movement of having Jewish grandchildren but I disagree that it can definitively say that my more observant Reform friends will have fewer grandchildren than some of the folks I know who call themselves Orthodox but date non-Jews.  

I think its a little hasty to condemn non-Orthodox Judaism to the dust-bin.  If 50 years from now the Chassidim rule the earth, Ill be impressed but until then, Im sticking up for non-Orthodoxy as being a vibrant and welcoming way for Jews to connect with Judaism.

Kol tuv,
   SalukiFan

P.S.  Mazel tov on your daughters intense interest in studying Torah!  I agree that that is truly something to shep naches from.

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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2005, 11:19:50 AM »
The bill appears to restrict liberty.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2005, 01:15:54 PM »
Quote from: Antibubba
I'm astounded by the "True Jew" commentary that goes on here.

If I'm this much of a blot on Judaism, I might as well go get Baptized, right?
Not sure which thread you are reading.  On this one we are discussing fundamental underpinnings of the different movements.  No one has accused anyone of not being a "true Jew" (except maybe Preacherman).  If your mother is/was Jewish then you're just as much a "true Jew" as the rest of us here.
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Azrael256

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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2005, 02:26:31 PM »
Read this article if you haven't already.  It's about why so many Jews support gun control.  I think it's accurate, and I'd like to know if others agree.

Stand_watie

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« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2005, 04:39:27 PM »
Maybe we could have more sub categories to the term "Jewish" to prevent confusion and quarrels Smiley Maybe they already exist?

A. Ethnic or racially Jewish but practice any or no religion

B. Culturally Jewish (celebrates holidays, bar-mitzvahs etc) but practice any or no religion.

C. Religiously Jewish

But then we'd have to have sub -sub categories. How about a Japanese born to Shintoists who converts? He'd be a 'C', but we'd need a 'CA' to distinguish him from someone who was both A and C.

Some Christians (especially around the Balkans lately it seems) seem to have the same difficulty with identification being as much a cultural/race based thing as religious.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Stand_watie

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« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2005, 04:55:16 PM »
Quote from: Azrael256
Read this article if you haven't already.  It's about why so many Jews support gun control.  I think it's accurate, and I'd like to know if others agree.
I think there's a lot to it - and I think you can plug other traditionally hard done by groups of people in America into the (gulp, hate to say it) "slave mentality" of government trust/reliance (a major distinction would be the trust on the government being for very different things, more commonly it's subsistence, but in the case of middle class and wealthy liberals it's physical protection).

That said - I think there's a lot to it, but I tend to think the majority of it is simpler - a fairly recent history of being from highly government regulated populations in Europe (eastern especially) and a tendency to bring your politics along with you, combined with  70 or 80 years of conglomeration in places in America that are politically more toward that end of the spectrum anyway, followed by a tendency toward higher education which seems to be another bastion of liberalism in America.

However, and it may just be that I'm more politically aware, I think I've seen some shift in recent politics of Jews being taken for granted as a solid liberal block.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

matis

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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2005, 05:03:14 PM »
quote-SalukiFan:
Im right there with you Antibubba.
________________________________________

Alright, so I'll admit the truth: I feel affection for you, too.        Do me something.






Again quote by Salukifan:
Matis,
  Thank you for your thoughtful reply.  I doubt that we will ever see eye-to-eye on Jewish issues but I appreciate that you seem to have thought long and hard about your beliefs.
_________________________________________________________

Agreed, Salukifan, we don't see eye-to-eye on this.  




 
Quote by Salukifan:
The actual numbers for the Chassidim were about 2600 after 4 generations, about 350 for the Orthodox, 24 for the Conservative, 13 for the Reform and 5 for the secular Jews but that was pretty good from memory!
___________________________________________________

Actually, I read this in the mid-nineties and lost the magazine.  I don't remember which issue or even which year it appeared in.

Years later, I called them and tried to get them to sell me a copy.

The fellow repeatedly promised to send me the copy, but everytime I called, he had a different excuse.

We had talked and I (mistakenly?) told me why I was interested.  Either he didn't want to bother -- or -- he didn't want me to get my hands on the article.

Their web-site now says that they are building an archive of past issues, but so far they have very little in it.

So, although I remember higher ones, even with your numbers, the results are, to me, quite grim.  The analysis and explanations may or may not have bearing.  But to me, the numbers speak for themselves.  So we don't agree.


But you wont be able to say that I don't have chutzpah.  Because I'm going to ask YOU help me find this article or, perphaps, to share with me YOUR sources.  I am not a sociologist and research is not my forte.  But I would dearly love to have this material.  




Salukifan said:
"I think its a little hasty to condemn non-Orthodox Judaism to the dust-bin.  If 50 years from now the Chassidim rule the earth, Ill be impressed ...."
_________________________________________________________

So you admit the possibility that Moshiach is almost here?



Sorry, I just couldn't resist (grin).

This is a concept I myself have trouble with.  But it was just too tempting!



Salukifan:
P.S.  Mazel tov on your daughters intense interest in studying Torah!  I agree that that is truly something to shep naches from.
_________________________________________________________

Thank you.  I sure do get naches from her.  I get happiness and joy!



matis
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grampster

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« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2005, 05:05:19 PM »
Since the diaspora, I truly wonder how many people in this world are descended from Israel.

  On my mother's side, her mother and father came from the Vilnius area of Lithuania.  However my maternal grandfather was named Schneider and his family was purported to be from Germany.  There were many Jews residing in both areas when they were young and for a couple of generations prior.  Lots of movement around that part of Europe by Israel due to persecution and pogroms.  His photos show him to have semitic features.  Pictures of my mother when she was young show her to have very semitic features.  Jet black hair, a long aqualine nose.  Photo's of my maternal grandmother on the other hand, show her to be very eastern European, even having some asian features.  No one of my mother's generation had much to say, let alone know about their past, only that her parents left as a result of the Russian Revolution.

They were Roman Catholics, but many Jews converted to RC to avoid persecution.  The Nazi's weren't the only groups of people that murdered significant numbers of Israel and various times since the diaspora.

I think I remember a thread at THR or maybe it was here shortly after APS came up that many of our Jewish members seem to believe that Jewishness is only connected to belonging to some sect or branch of the Jewish faith, and perhaps there is some argument regarding that as well.  What about people who don't have a clue as to their background?  I am of the opinion that being Jewish has to do with one's roots.  In other words, who is to say that I, for example, am not of one of the twelve tribes of Israel?  There is much murkiness in the past regarding roots and bloodlines.
  I may be a Christian but as such I am told that I have been grafted into the tree of Israel.  I believe that. So, as a person of Eastern European descent who may just have been descended from one of the 12 tribes, who is a Christian, but loves Israel as I believe I am adopted into the House of Israel, how can it possibly be that I must be marginalized or rejected by my brothers and sisters.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

matis

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« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2005, 05:20:05 PM »
quotebyAzrael256:
Read www.jpfo.org/fear.htm  this article if you haven't already.  It's about why so many Jews support gun control.  I think it's accurate, and I'd like to know if others agree.
__________________________________________________________________


Azrael256,
Thank you so much for posting that.  This goes right to the heart of The Rabbi's letter to that Reform group.

It is IMO excellent and completely accurate.



I have been on the email list from JPFO (Jews for the Protection of Firearms Ownership) for a few years now.


I think it's time for me to stop mooching and send them the membership $$.  They do excellent work.



Thanks, again.



matis
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matis

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« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2005, 05:32:46 PM »
Grampster said:
" how can it possibly be that I must be marginalized or rejected by my brothers and sisters."
_______________________________________________________________

I'm not sure what you mean, Grampster.  Which siblings are you referring to: Christian ones or Jewish ones?


matis
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2005, 05:54:35 PM »
Hmm, I dunno, Grampster.  Sounds like you might just be another MOT.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2005, 06:07:37 PM »
Quote
Hmm, I dunno, Grampster.  Sounds like you might just be another MOT.
I hope your parents had a little forsight when you were 8 days old Smiley

A question for you Matis, of the five groups you mentioned, which consider the Torah to be the word of Gd? And do they consider the entire Torah the Word or only the books of Moses?
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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matis

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« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2005, 07:37:03 PM »
Stand_watie asked:
A question for you Matis, of the five groups you mentioned, which consider the Torah to be the word of Gd? And do they consider the entire Torah the Word or only the books of Moses?
_____________________________________________________________

The Chassidim and the Orthodox for sure.  The secular, by definition don't believe.  As for the Reform and even the Conservative, I think it depends on the individual congregation and even congregant.

They may say they consider the Torah to be the word of G-d.  But if they pick and choose which commandments to obey (that is if it isn't too inconvenient), how can that be true?

But I'll defer on the rest to The Rabbi.

He is actually Orthodox and knows far more than I do.  I am a relative newcomer to all this and know enough only to be dangerous and to make people mad at me (grin).

It's his turn to take flak.


Or perhaps Salukifan will answer.  She may be reform, and I don't agree with her take on most of this.  But she sure seems to know her Judaism.



matis
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Oleg Volk

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« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2005, 08:35:09 PM »
Looks like the only thing scarier to the anti-semites than having Hassidim fill the earth would be cross-breeding them with the Chinese and really upping the numbers in a hurry. I think that was the nightmare for some of the Soviets in the past :-)

Stand_watie

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« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2005, 08:48:43 PM »
Quote from: Oleg Volk
Looks like the only thing scarier to the anti-semites than having Hassidim fill the earth would be cross-breeding them with the Chinese and really upping the numbers in a hurry. I think that was the nightmare for some of the Soviets in the past :-)
That and North Korean Jehovah's Witnesses.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

The Rabbi

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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2005, 09:18:39 AM »
Quote from: Stand_watie
A question for you Matis, of the five groups you mentioned, which consider the Torah to be the word of Gd? And do they consider the entire Torah the Word or only the books of Moses?
The "traditional" interpretation is that G-d dictated the first five books to Moses, who wrote them down.  But every word came from G-d first.  The other books were written by prophets but do not contradict anything written in the first five.
The Conservatives seem to profess wonder and ignorance at the process, not really sure that the traditional interpretation is true but not wanting to reject it either.
The Reform maintain that the Bible was "divinely inspired."  I am not sure what that means, if anything.  They have no problem ascribing inspiration to things like "honor your father and mother" or "Do Not Murder" (at least in principle anyway) but somehow I guess the inspiration conked out in "do not wear shatnez (a mixture of wool and linen)" or "on the Sabbath do no work" and a few hundred others.
The Reconstructuionist I think subscribe to the "inspiration" theory but hold that the commandments are merely "folk ways" and important simply for Jewish identity.
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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2005, 09:32:04 AM »
Quote from: SalukiFan
Quote from: The Rabbi
Nothing is going to persuade those people.  Merely expressing displeasure is about as much as I can get in.
Well Rabbi, if you just wanted to vent and exprees displeasure rather than persuade, you succeeded admirably.
Thanks.  I knew I had to be good at something.

Quote from: SalukiFan
Quote from: The Rabbi
I disagree that liberal strains have given Jews something rather than nothing.  It is like a person with a bad infection who goes to a witch doctor instead of taking antibiotics.  He thinks he is getting treated when in fact his actions make the condition worse.  If he did nothing he would at least know he was doing nothing.  In any case the difference between Orthodoxy and liberal versions of Judaism has nothing to do with the number of mitzvos performed.  More, not all Orthodoxy is hassidism and there is plenty of diversity in the Orthodox camp.
As far as your criticism of my comments and questions to matis:

1.   Let me see.  Didnt we just have a conversation on the theological philosophy thread where you protested that you were hurt and offended that I joked that you wanted everyone to be Orthodox like you?  Ah yes, here it is:
Quote from: The Rabbi
I take exception that you think I want you to be Orthodox just like me.  That is not so.  There are many fine people who are Orthodox not like me and that's fine too.
Have you changed your mind since then or is there a misunderstanding?
Do you see a contradiction here?  I sure dont.  I maintain that liberal branches of Judaism are guilty of falsification and leading their members astray.  I further maintain that the term "Torah-true" refers to a broad spectrum of opinion and practice, all of which is legitimate.  There is no contradiction.

Quote from: SalukiFan
As a sociologist and a Jew, I am interested in how this mathematical prediction was interpreted.  The authors of the study link the successful passing on of Jewish tradition to the number of years children attend Jewish day school rather than Orthodox belief per se.  If anything, I consider it more important to use this prediction to impress on parents the need to give their child a thorough Jewish education rather than have conversion to Orthodoxy as the only option for having Jewish grandchildren.
First, one cannot "convert" to Orthodoxy if one is Jewish.  This seems to be some kind of canard made up by the Reform or something.  If a person is Jewish he/she is Jewish.  If he/she wants to practice Orthodoxy there is no ceremony: he/she merely starts practicing.
Second, sending Jewish children to Jewish schools is fine and dandy but no substitute for practice in the home.  These studies supporting Jewish education are misleading because they are a self-selecting group.  People who pracitice Judaism in the home and consider it important are more likely to send their kids to a Jewish day school than those who dont.  I know dozens, if not hundreds of kids who went to the day school here and the vast majority do not practice anything and many have intermarried.   OTOH my wife grew up in an Orthodox family with very limited Jewish education and all five children are more rigorous in their practice than the parents were.

Quote from: SalukiFan
I have friends and acquaintances from pretty much every Jewish movement.  Of them, my Reform friends who are dating, are all dating other Jews.  One of my good friends, who is Conservative, just called a couple weeks ago to tell me he was getting married to a nice Jewish girl (Mazel tov Marty!).  My friends that attend Chabad arent dating anyone yet, but the hunt for a Jewish husband is getting fierce.  I know that this is anecdotal evidence but it seems to me that the common denominator here is that Jews that are religious and active in the Jewish community seek out, date and marry other Jews.  

If the Reform or Conservative movements seem to have a lot of intermarriage, I would argue that it is mostly a function of those movements being more welcoming to the High Holy Days only crowd (who usually pull their kids out of religious education right after their bar or bat mitzvah).  I think if you looked at the actual observance level rather than affiliation labels, the predicted numbers wouldnt be nearly as grim.  One can make dire predictions about the likelihood of an average Jew in a certain movement of having Jewish grandchildren but I disagree that it can definitively say that my more observant Reform friends will have fewer grandchildren than some of the folks I know who call themselves Orthodox but date non-Jews.
As you say, anecdotal evidence is worthless.
In any given Reform temple you will find that a very large number of the members are intermarried.  Among those under 50 probably an absolute majority, depending on where you live.  The "High Holiday Only" crowd you posit in fact IS the membership about 90% of the time.  The Conservative movement's own figures show that those raised in Conservative families are not likely to be Conservative themselves.  Most become Reform and a few become Orthodox.  I tend to think there is a similar shift in Reform.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2005, 03:19:43 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
..The Reform maintain that the Bible was "divinely inspired."  I am not sure what that means, if anything.  They have no problem ascribing inspiration to things like "honor your father and mother" or "Do Not Murder" (at least in principle anyway) but somehow I guess the inspiration conked out in "do not wear shatnez (a mixture of wool and linen)" or "on the Sabbath do no work" and a few hundred others..
Ok. That explains our earlier misunderstanding regarding "inspired".  Something quite different in the conservative Christian community.
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Antibubba

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« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2005, 12:35:22 AM »
My Jewish beliefs are unorthodox.  And while I said before that I might be Reform, I'm not really comfortable there either.  I walk a path that Hashem has set for me, and I'm usually the only one on it.

   We are all Talmudic Jews.  The Judaism of the Bible no longer exists-it can't, with no Temple, with no Holy of Holies.  Learned men have studied the Torah and tried to interpret it as best they can, but over the centuries what is sacred and what is simply the way it's been done for centuries are considered the same.  "Don't boil a kid in the milk of it's mother" now means that dairy and meat cannot be eaten together, or within a certain amount of time of each other, and that every household must have two completely separated sets of dishes and utensils.  That's the tradition.  Is it what G-d meant, or is it just the result of of Judaism's version of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin"?

   The Diaspora is not a punishment.  The Diaspora is the point.  We were tribes when it was necessary to build an identity.  We were in exile in Babylon, and we proved that we could remain a united, distinct people.  The Temple was destroyed, the very center of our focus and connection to G-d was obliterated.  Our Cohen were still revered, but they had no real purpose.  And we adapted.  The tribes spread to every corner of the Earth-to Europe, to Africa, to Persia, India, even China.  The customs of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi went in different ways, but all remained Jews.  Even the followers of Jesus stayed Jews for awhile, until they were co-opted by the Roman Empire.  We had proven in Babylon that we were a People, a Nation, even in exile and apart.  And everywhere we go we change the conditions.  We improve them, by being a light and an example to others.  And although we touch every point on the spectrum of politics, devotion, economics, and every aspect of human life, we are driven by Tikkun Olam.

   We were stuck, stagnant.  We weren't going anywhere.  We were afraid to move or lift our heads, for fear that the "Cossacks" would cut us down.  the Chasids are Ultra-orthodox now, but they started as a very radical movement.  The Reform movement sought to keep those who would not remain shtetlized in the fold still.

   Matis, if I could spend many days with you, in conversation, I still could not explain to you fully what it is I'm supposed to do.  It's never been done.  I barely have the vocabulary for it.  In a small way, it's like I was on a Sinai, and I've been shown something.  I have great respect for the profound devotion that you and The Rabbi have in your practices and expressions of Judaism.  But doesn't make you sad to think that you have more in common with the Evangelicals, who fifty years ago wouldn't have shared a hotel or a table with you, than with other Jews?  There are a lot of intermarried in Reform temples and even in Conservative synagauges, but have you noticed that they and their children are there, and not in Church?  

Oyy.  Time for bed.

              Shalom Aleichem.
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

matis

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« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2005, 07:10:46 AM »
Quote: me
    Contrary to what the feminists believe, Judaism teaches reverence for women.  They are the main-stay of Jewish life.  And it doesn't matter who your father was.  It is ONLY if your MOTHER was Jewish that you are a Jew.
_______________________________
Quote: Blackburn:
And you know why that is, right?
_______________________________________


My first answer is because Halakhah (Jewish law) says so.

My 2nd:  'cause it's much easier to know who the mother was than who the father was.

My 3rd answer is a question: Have you any idea what guilt a Jewish mother can instill?



Now, what did YOU have in mind?




matis




matis
Si vis pacem; para bellum.

Dave Markowitz

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« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2005, 08:09:47 AM »
Quote from: Antibubba
The Diaspora is not a punishment.  The Diaspora is the point.  We were tribes when it was necessary to build an identity.  We were in exile in Babylon, and we proved that we could remain a united, distinct people.  The Temple was destroyed, the very center of our focus and connection to G-d was obliterated.  Our Cohen were still revered, but they had no real purpose.  And we adapted.  The tribes spread to every corner of the Earth-to Europe, to Africa, to Persia, India, even China.  The customs of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi went in different ways, but all remained Jews.  Even the followers of Jesus stayed Jews for awhile, until they were co-opted by the Roman Empire.  We had proven in Babylon that we were a People, a Nation, even in exile and apart.  And everywhere we go we change the conditions.  We improve them, by being a light and an example to others.  And although we touch every point on the spectrum of politics, devotion, economics, and every aspect of human life, we are driven by Tikkun Olam.
AB,

This may be the most insightful paragraph I have EVER read online (and I've been online for longer than most folks).

Yiddishe kopf, indeed.  Smiley

Regards,
Dave, fellow MOT.

Azrael256

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« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2005, 09:25:49 AM »
Quote
Have you any idea what guilt a Jewish mother can instill?
*shudder*  Try being 23, finishing up a degree, Microsoft certified, not too horrible looking, and single.  Not so bad?  Now try going to shul.  I go to the late service to avoid the Jewish mothers who keep saying "Oh, you'd love my daughter."  Yeah, and I'm sure she's going to become just exactly like you.  *shudder*

Antibubba, I agree.  Good stuff.  If you don't mind, I plan to steal it for my systematic theology class tonight.

SalukiFan

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« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2005, 10:29:07 AM »
Quote from: Azrael256
Try being 23, finishing up a degree, Microsoft certified, not too horrible looking, and single.
[yenta]
Wait a minute - you are in Dallas?  Listen, I know the perfect girl for you!  Twenty-three already and not married?  This is a shanda.  You've got to let me introduce you to the Berkowitz's girl, you know she's at UPenn right now but she'll be home on break soon - you'll have to meet her...
[/yenta]
Cheesy

matis

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« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2005, 11:58:01 AM »
Quote: Antibubba
My Jewish beliefs are unorthodox.  And while I said before that I might be Reform, I'm not really comfortable there either.  I walk a path that Hashem has set for me, and I'm usually the only one on it.
__________________________________________________________________

Antibubba, you and I are the same, both Jews.  The connection is there with or without our awareness.

It rose especially in my awareness, however, when in one of your earlier posts, you wrote words to the effect that you would get on the next plane if the enemy were massing on Israel's borders.

That brought tears (they seem to come easier as I get older).  I have come to believe that the reason for such an emotionally strong allegiance, to a place where we don't even live (except maybe in our hearts), goes deeper than either of us "know" intellectually.  I don't think psychology and sociology alone can explain it.

And I can no longer argue with the "True Jews" (grin) as you allude to them, when they ascribe this to the pintele Yid (basically -- Jewish soul) inside (sometimes buried deep inside) each of us.


Yet, the object of this love, this loyalty -- the Jewish people, can only endure when they can focus on something tangible.

Without that, Jews, especially the brilliant ones, can drift very far afield.  Karl Marx was a Jew.  So was Trotsky.  Many of the Bolsheviks were Jews getting revenge for centuries of brutal persecution.  And look at what brutality they spawned.

Peter Singer, the guru of the animal-rights mishiginers (Yiddish for crazies) -- "...a rat, is a pig, is a dog, is a boy"-- is Jewish.  Could he have come up with that if he really knew who he was?

The feminist revolution got its re-vitalization in the 60's with the publishing of the book: The Feminine Mystique.  Of course the author,  Betty Friedan is Jewish.  So is Gloria Steinem.  So are so many of these women.  Many on this forum will argue that much good has been accomplished.  Yes.  But so has the destruction of the family, the perversion of justice -- and they have let loose the demons that  ravage society, today.  (Told you I wasn't {too}afraid to die (grin)).


Of course the world also owes much to the Jews, from Einstein on down, in just about every field of endeavor.

Why do we just about "own" physics and why are we at the top of so many other fields?

These same "true Jews" say that the Jewish soul burns like a flame in every Jew.  It yearns for G-d.  If the Jew forgets who and what he is, then the same un-extinguishable flame drives him in other directions, some of them terrible.  Tikkun Olum (to repair the world) yes.

But how exactly?  


Judaism is not so much about what one believes and is far more about what one does: the Mitzvahs (Commandments), as interpreted by Talmud, tell Jews what to do.  Without the Commandments (613 of 'em), how is one to be a Jew?  Eat bagels and Lox?  Doesn't last very long (generationally) without teffilin (phylactories).


I remember sitting at my very first Shabbos table (Friday night meal, after synagogue) at the Chabad Rabbi's house.

My reasons for being there is a story that belongs elsewhere. But briefly, I was there because I felt I had to be, not because I wanted to be.

I had to find a way to pull my ex out of the fundamentalist church she had started attending. And where she would surely have soon taken my 3 yr old daughter -- and to get them to return to our city and to me.  No offense meant to believing Christians whom I deeply respect, but my kid, a Jew, whose blood, through me and through my father from Warsaw and going all the way back, was NOT going to be lost to us.  After 3800 years, I was NOT going to drop the ball!

(Since I mention this, then I should also tell you that my ex is not in any way "bad" in Jewish eyes.  She is simply someone who is deeply spiritual, who longed to express this, and who instead had to live for years with a militant atheist (me) who would allow NO religious "nonsense" in the house.  She had never experienced real spirituality -- she was brought up Conservative {sorry, folks, but true} and 4 out of 6 siblings became and still are Christians!  And she DID experience true spirituality in the Fundamentalist Church -- they certainly do have it.  It simply wasn't Jewish.  Once I succeeded in luring her to a Chabad Shabbos, she came home and has never looked back.)

I found myself desperate and absolutely determined to "save" my daughter -- for myself --  and so she would know who she is.  Her birth, literally, brought me back home.


So there I sat at the table with these people with long beards and funny clothes on.   The talk ranged widely and I was polite.  I couldn't help noticing that these people went deeper than many in dealing with the topics.  Food for my mind! Boy, where were THEY all my life?

But then they began a discussion about exactly what constituted a kosher mezuzza (small prayer-scroll affixed to the doorways in a Jewish home).  That was it!  I withdrew light-years into myself.  I had nothing in common with them, after all.

A kosher mezuzzah must be written on parchment, not paper.  Special, India type inks must be used.  And so on.  The slightest age-crack in a single letter and the mezuzzah was no longer kosher -- it had to be buried with appropriate prayers.

To my secular mind, here was the Jewish version of "...counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin."  Not for me!

After a few minutes, though, out of nowhere -- tears (what, again?).  Must be losing my mind.


It suddenly hit me.  I carried on about Am Israel Chai (the Jewish People Live)!  That was my mantra.  But what was I actually doing for that?  Just thinking thoughts?  Or  supporting Israel?  That's fine but only for the short run.


What had struck me with such force at that Shabbos table was something that I had ridiculed all my life.  These people, not me, were doing what was necessary for the Jews to survive.

Ritual, tradition.  Was for turkeys, I used to think.

Except, when I listened to their concern for the smallest detail of keeping a mezzuzah kosher (what they gonna do, eat it?), I realized that I was observing the very process that had kept us alive, strangers in a strange land, for nearly 2000 years and for another 1800 years before that.

Taking G-d's word so to heart that one strove, with everything in him, to obey it.  That's why we were still here!

Doesn't even matter, whether G-d actually exists (forgive me, The Rabbi).  It is this PROCESS, of doing -- that is what keeps us still here.


That was probably (who can really know such things for sure?) the turning point for me.  All the fierce pride, and loving and other forms of kvetching in the long run don't cut it.


It is written in the Shema prayer that Jews repeat 3 times a day: AND YOU SHALL TEACH IT TO YOUR CHILDREN.  Teach what?  Ideas?  Concepts?

Of course.  But these are, by definition, evanescent, they float in air, are easily, even inadvertently, changed.  They can even transmogrify into marxism.  They must be anchored to action.  Something to do every day and many times in each day.


One reason I love Judaism is because it contains so profound an understanding of human nature (no accident that Freud and the early psychologists were all Jews.  Even today their proportion is amazing).

Just knowing and thinking is not enough.  One must DO.


Do what?  Whatever seems like a good idea at the time?


Well, there are numberless ideas, some very good, some terrible.


To anchor Jews to their G-d -- Torah and tradition tells them exactly what to do.

And thereby they preserve their values and themselves.


I used to think that this created automatons, people afraid to think for themselves.

So how is it that we transmitted a system of concepts and values that undergirds western civilization?  Is it because we are automatons that how we rise to the top of every science and so many of the arts (well, maybe not tattoo artistry)?


Life is full of paradox.  This is one of the greatest.  But maybe not.  To be truly free one must first master oneself.  One must develope self-discipine.

Judaism requires nothing, if not powerful self-discipline.  How many commandments did I mention above?  613!  One cannot get out of bed, cannot eat, cannot go to sleep again without appropriate prayers.  I used to wonder how such Jews got so much done.  Turns out they do all that prayer and ritual -- and get more done than many of us.  Connection somewhere?

And does this make them automatons?  Actually this is simply a way to remember who provides all that they have.  Including themselves.  These Jews say that animals eat when they're hungry.  People, because of Whose image we were made in, must be more conscious than that.  The prayer, actually blessing, keeps us conscious, awake to reality.  Sometimes, circumstances or lack of something kosher to eat, puts off eating for awhile.  So they learn that just because you feel hungry, doesn't mean you have to eat.  Self-control!  I now believe that such Jews are so successful in dealing with material reality -- because they have the reality principal itself nailed down.

Instead of automatons they to about their day are MORE conscious than most.  Like I said: paradox.


You're concerned about Jewish survival?  Then DO SOMETHING!

Do what?  Keep the mitzvas (commandments).  All 613 of 'em.  ('Course it's alright to start with even one or two.  Good thing, too, or I'd be in real trouble.)  We can't keep the ones that cannot be kept until the Temple stands again?  Keep the mitzvahs you can and the  time will come when we can keep all 613, again.


Over the LONG HAUL, nothing else works.

That way we'll remember who we are.  And who we are not.


We are the people chosen to be a light unto the nations.

We are NOT G-d, himself.

So concentrate on what he commanded us:  "Justice, justice you shall do!"

Not Cosmic Justice (see Thomas Sowell's book), where we try to right ALL "wrongs".  To the point where we try to turn day into night, women into men; men into women, redistribute wealth (by whose standard?), make everybody equal (that is, beat them down into an equal mediocracy) for the sake of fairness.

When you try to make heaven on earth, as in socialism, you inevitably make hell on earth instead.


Strive for justice; leave cosmic justice to G-d.


Just do the mitzvahs.




quote: Antibubba
 Is it what G-d meant, or is it just the result of of Judaism's version of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin"?
________________________________________________

See, I told you, Antibubba?  Somewhere in there, we do think alike. We get the same thoughts.  Just needs some polishing, for both of us.




Quote:Antibubba
And everywhere we go we change the conditions.  We improve them, by being a light and an example to others.  And although we touch every point on the spectrum of politics, devotion, economics, and every aspect of human life, we are driven by Tikkun Olam.
_________________________________________________________________

Not everywhere; see above.






Quote: Antibubba
   Matis, if I could spend many days with you, in conversation,
_________________________________________________________

Antibubba, I'd absolutely love that!


Antibubba said:
I still could not explain to you fully what it is I'm supposed to do.  It's never been done.  I barely have the vocabulary for it.  In a small way, it's like I was on a Sinai, and I've been shown something.
__________________________________________________________

According to Jewish teaching, Antibubba, you (your soul) WERE at Mt. Sinai "being shown something."



Antibubba said:
  I have great respect for the profound devotion that you and The Rabbi have in your practices and expressions of Judaism.  But doesn't make you sad to think that you have more in common with the Evangelicals, who fifty years ago wouldn't have shared a hotel or a table with you, than with other Jews?
____________________________________________________________________

Antibubba, some years back, yes.

Now, no.  Actually, I love the Evangelicals -- not because they may want to convert me (NO CHANCE), but because they are far more honest than most of us in their devotion to their religion.  Their religion originated in and closely resembles Judaism.  And therefore they are anchored to the values that raised up mankind from savagery.  And they don't just paste their religion on when it suits them.  They do their best to live and be true to it.  My ex and I home-schooled our daughter.  It was believing Christians who paved the way, fought the legal battles, so we could do that.

Now IS NOT 50 years ago.  Very many of their number (I call them "believing Christians") not only will share a table or hotel with me; they round up and give millions of $$ to Israel.  They support her more than most Jews do.

Many Reform and Conservative Jews are still suspicious of Christians, but support what they consider to be "fairness" toward Muslims.  They have NO CLUE what terrible dangers face them (yes, even in America) right now.  And it isn't from Christians.

Those who refuse to live in the present are doomed to extinction.
 



Antibubba said:
  There are a lot of intermarried in Reform temples and even in Conservative synagauges, but have you noticed that they and their children are there, and not in Church?
_________________________________________________________

If you think in generational terms, for most of them, Reform and Conservative synagogues are just way-stations on their way out of Judaism.  And many of their children and grand-children ARE on their way to church.





Antibubba said:
 I have great respect for the profound devotion that you and The Rabbi have in your practices and expressions of Judaism.
___________________________________________________________

I understand what you mean, Antibubba, and I thank you.

But The Rabbi and I differ in one important respect: I express my love for Judaism, but I am, basically, not observant.

The Rabbi expresses his love for Judaism and he IS observant.  For me, as I struggle, it's important to remember that kind of difference.



With respect and affection,


Sholem Aleichem,



matis
Si vis pacem; para bellum.