Reform Jews Clueless On Guns

[Stand_watie]

You put a heck of a lot of work into that last post Matis, I hope you're saving and collating this stuff - you might want to publish sometime.

I had to find a way to pull my ex out of the fundamentalist church she had started attending. And where she would surely have soon taken my 3 yr old daughter -- and to get them to return to our city and to me.  No offense meant to believing Christians whom I deeply respect, but my kid, a Jew, whose blood, through me and through my father from Warsaw and going all the way back, was NOT going to be lost to us.  After 3800 years, I was NOT going to drop the ball!

(Since I mention this, then I should also tell you that my ex is not in any way "bad" in Jewish eyes.  She is simply someone who is deeply spiritual, who longed to express this, and who instead had to live for years with a militant atheist (me) who would allow NO religious "nonsense" in the house.  She had never experienced real spirituality -- she was brought up Conservative {sorry, folks, but true} and 4 out of 6 siblings became and still are Christians!  And she DID experience true spirituality in the Fundamentalist Church -- they certainly do have it.  It simply wasn't Jewish.  Once I succeeded in luring her to a Chabad Shabbos, she came home and has never looked back.)

You mean she was brought up "conservative" Jewish or Christian? No reason for Christians to take offense at your feelings, if you didn't believe your way to be the right way, why practice it?

Now, no.  Actually, I love the Evangelicals -- not because they may want to convert me (NO CHANCE), but because they are far more honest than most of us in their devotion to their religion.  Their religion originated in and closely resembles Judaism.  And therefore they are anchored to the values that raised up mankind from savagery.  And they don't just paste their religion on when it suits them.  They do their best to live and be true to it.  My ex and I home-schooled our daughter.  It was believing Christians who paved the way, fought the legal battles, so we could do that. Now IS NOT 50 years ago.  Very many of their number (I call them "believing Christians") not only will share a table or hotel with me; they round up and give millions of $$ to Israel.  They support her more than most Jews do.

Here you sound a bit like a talk show host I occasionally enjoy listening too, Dennis Prager (I have no idea what his sect is or if he's even religious).

You mention religious honesty, I'll tell you one that has always bugged me. I have no idea which Jewish movements support this notion, or if it's entirely a Hollywood fiction by secular folks, but I've heard a lot of backhanded apologies for the killing of Christ. A lot of people that say good things about him, when he obviously was either G-d, a false prophet, or a lunatic. To me any admission that the killing of Christ was wrong should be anathema to anyone who believes

a) Christ wasn't G-d.
b) The Old Testament commandments were binding on the Jewish community of Christ's era.

To me, that's the crux of the difference between modern Judaism and orthodox Christianity. Do you believe he's G-d or not? If he is, they were wrong. If not, they were right. Why go for half measures? Of course the 1500 or so years of Christians  persecuting Jews (apparently missing the point that the few thousand Jews and few hundred Romans who participated in killing Christ are merely the annointed delegates who represented all humanity of all time, of all races and religions) may have created a reluctance for people to speak their minds regarding what they truly believe.

Do what?  Keep the mitzvas (commandments).  All 613 of 'em.  ('Course it's alright to start with even one or two.  Good thing, too, or I'd be in real trouble.)  We can't keep the ones that cannot be kept until the Temple stands again?  Keep the mitzvahs you can and the  time will come when we can keep all 613, again.

My choice for the two verses that best encapsulate the Old Testament (I think I had this for a signature here for a while)

Ecclesiastes 12


'13 Now all has been heard;
       here is the conclusion of the matter:
       Fear God and keep his commandments,
       for this is the whole duty of man.

 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
       including every hidden thing,
       whether it is good or evil'

[matis]

[quote-Stand_watie:
You mean she was brought up "conservative" Jewish or Christian? No reason for Christians to take offense at your feelings, if you didn't believe your way to be the right way, why practice it?
___________________________________________________________________
She was brought up in the Conservative synagogue, which is named backwards.  They're actually very liberal.  They're called Conservative only because they arose in reaction to the Reform who were and are even more so.




Stand_Watie said:
I've heard a lot of backhanded apologies for the killing of Christ. A lot of people that say good things about him, when he obviously was either G-d, a false prophet, or a lunatic. To me any admission that the killing of Christ was wrong should be anathema to anyone who believes.
__________________________________________________________

AFAIC you're absolutely correct.  However one interprets the killing of Christ, the Jews have been blamed and murdered for this for so long that they're afraid to deal with it.  At least all but the Orthodox and Chassidim are.  The rest seem to have bought into their own protective PR.

I'm not saying that it's necessary to throw this difference in the face of Christians.  G-d knows we need each other as allies.  It's better to emphasize what unites us and that's a whole lot.

When, as the Orthodox Jews believe, Moshiach (Messiah) will come, all the world will know G-d.  If the Christians are right and He's already been here and He's coming back, so what?  The Christians also say we'll all know G-d.  Either way, when the real McCoy comes, who will want to argue with him?



Stand_Watie said:
My choice for the two verses that best encapsulate the Old Testament (I think I had this for a signature here for a while)

Ecclesiastes 12


'13 Now all has been heard;
       here is the conclusion of the matter:
       Fear God and keep his commandments,
       for this is the whole duty of man.

 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
       including every hidden thing,
       whether it is good or evil'
__________________________________________________________


Yes, absolutely,  But this is exceedly difficult for the secular mind to accept.

We dismiss G-d as myth, which inevitably means that we put ourselves in his place.  Even I, who's mind is still basically secular -- I must devise ways to work around that.  I am coming very slowly around.  But it's not easy.  I used to say it was murder.  Not anymore.  It gets easier.  Or maybe it's a necessary killing.  I am slowly with lots of sweat, but thankfully no blood, killing the prisoner (but only him -- not me) of the Galut.


The secular mind thinks that because we have made such huge and wonderful strides in coming to understand reality -- it therefore thinks it can go all the way.


Philosophically this is impossible.  That is the same as saying that our minds are equal to G-d's (if he had one).  Or saying the same thing in a secular sense: there is no way that the mind of man, who finds himself embedded in reality, can ever understand the totality of that reality.  

How can a mind, which is by definition junior to the reality it tries to understand,
ever transcend its own junior status -- its own limitations to do so.  How can we see our eyeballs with our own eyeballs?  We can with a mirror.  But mirrors always add distortions, don't they?


We study the mind and we know a little about it.  In a prior life-time I practised psychotherapy.  So I know a little of what I'm saying when I say that most of psychology is nonsense.  It changes with the seasons and with the latest fads.  The soft "sciences" have an inferiority complex with respect to the hard, so they simulate scientific method.  Occasionally, it's even honest.  You want to really know your mind; what you are?  Study Torah.  It's all there.

But we do really know enough to say that the mind picks and chooses from the data coming in.  And it inevitably distorts whatever is "really" out there.  Go back to Abraham Maslow (gee, another Jew) and read his TOWARD A PSYCHOLOGY OF BEING for one description of this.

Heisenberg in his uncertainty principal showed that the act of observing phenomena, changes them.  That is only my crude attempt to say what he discovered, but perhaps it will serve here.

So with an intrument like that, we can literally soar to the stars.  The secular, scientific mind is incredibly powerful!

But ultimately, the instrument falls short; we're not equipped to solve the riddle of existence.  That is (I hope) not a religious statement.  It's just simple logic.


This is the kind of thing I'm forced to do to work around my own secular consciousness, while still remaining honest.  Perhaps someday I will have internalized this well enough to remove my barriers to "knowing" G-d.

A while back, when I was still arguing for the secular position, I told the believing Christian involved that I couldn't believe because logic prevented that.

His answer puzzled me.  He said my problem was not intellectual, but one of will, of arrogance.  that I was simply REFUSING to obey G-d.  I couldn't understand then, why he would say that.  Now I do.  But I still have tons of intellectual underbrush to clear away.  See, this is too important a subject to cheat on.


In the meantime I can love Judaism, treasure my heritage and defend my people.  And, although one must be ever alert, I've made more progress in ensuring that my child will "teach it to her children"  than I would ever have thought possible for someone like me.  And I can continue to live up to the name G-d gave Jacob and the Jews: Israel, one who struggles with G-d.



matis


P.S.  thank you very much for the compliment, Stand_Watie.

[Antibubba]

David Markowitz,

    Thank you for your comments.  Can you elaborate on why you find it so profound?  I mean, I do too (I don't mean that in an arrogant way, it's just I don't run into a lot of people who understand the idea, and it's taken me a long time to get there), but yours insights would be appreciated.

Matis,

   I understand where you stand on the Evangelicals.  I have quite a few devout christians among my friends.  Their faith is sincere, and they do want what is best for me-which, to their way of thinking would be the accepting of Jesus Christ as my personal Savior.  But they don't press the point.  Your Evangelical friends might not push you, but they pray for your soul.  I know a lot of Christians who care about Israel:  Israel the home of Jesus, Israel the enemy of the Mohammedians, Israel as a land of freedom, and Israel as the home of their ancestral roots.  But the core of their generosity to Israel, ultimately, is the fullfillment of the prophesies in the Book of Revelations, where the faithful are taken to heaven, and the rest of us who choose the side of Good must ulimately embrace Jesus the Christ to defeat the Antichrist.  There are Christians who are raising money to start a rebuilding of the Temple, because a new Temple is part of their prophesies, not because it would be a light and benefit to Jews.

   Moslems, at least, are honest in their hopes of our destruction.  What is the saying?  Don't feed me s**t and tell me it's filet mignon.

[Stand_watie]

We dismiss G-d as myth, which inevitably means that we put ourselves in his place.  Even I, who's mind is still basically secular -- I must devise ways to work around that.  I am coming very slowly around.  But it's not easy.  I used to say it was murder.  Not anymore.  It gets easier.  Or maybe it's a necessary killing.  I am slowly with lots of sweat, but thankfully no blood, killing the prisoner (but only him -- not me) of the Galut.

You're welcome for the compliment, but it wasn't just a compliment, it was a genuine suggestion. If you put a lot of work into something you should try to save it, and I think the work you're putting in is both worthwhile and publishable. I don't say just as  Joe Shmoe, but as a lifetime heavy reader, a lot of the reading religious (My dad's a writer). If you do decide to try to publish and want to make contacts in the Christian writing community PM me.

Your spiritual awakening reminds me of an allegorical awakening chronicled by Lewis in one of the 'Narnia' books.

http://www.victorianweb.org/courses/fiction/65/lewis/paisid3.html

How can a mind, which is by definition junior to the reality it tries to understand,
ever transcend its own junior status -- its own limitations to do so.  How can we see our eyeballs with our own eyeballs?  We can with a mirror.  But mirrors always add distortions, don't they?

And this a verse written by at the very least, (depending on your religion) a particularly well schooled Hebrew

1 Corinthians 13

'Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.'

[grampster]

Matis,  I was pleasantly stunned with your comment regarding Messiah.  Loosely paraphrased, you said Jews are yet waiting for the Messiah, and Christians believe He has been here already, but will return.  "So what" you say.  

I think this statement does more to unify Jews and Christians, take some of the argument away if you will, if, when the Messiah returns, the Jews as well as Christians realize who He is at that point.  I am probably not being as clear as I would like.

   "So what".  That is sort of the key to the unification that we could enjoy at the moment.   As a Christian I need to live my faith based on what I believe while I'm alive, to the best of my ability, which is not good enough, but I am justified by Jesus.  As a Jew, you need to do the same, but justification by the Messiah comes later, as ...All Israel will be saved."  So perhaps we should not be arguing about Messiah, Christian and Jew, but joining together to live our lives spritually as best we can, together knowing that the future is not bleak at all.

I'm thinking Christian Scripture support my comments above.  "No one comes to the Father except through Me"  He did not say WHEN, only that it was necessary.  "...With the Father all things are possible."  In other words the "Stiff Necked people" have allowed the gentile to be grafted into Israel because of their Christian faith.  The rejection of Jesus as Messiah by Israel allows this.   But when He returns, Israel will see Him to be Messiah.  That time has come, at that point. The time that passed had to be in order for the prophecies regarding gentiles be able to come to fruition.  (Remember with God, time has no particular value, other than to His creation, as He exists outside of it)  Christians, perhaps should be grateful for this, if it is so.  It seems to me to be more important at that point in time (end time) anyway.  It also occurs to me that Christian New Testament Scripture claims "...All Israel will be saved."  

Rats, I'm really not that good at expressing esoteric comments regarding faith.  Wish I was better able...and I'm not questioning anyones belief system, only thinking out loud based on what you said in an earlier post.  Quite a thing to think about, actually.

[Dave Markowitz]

Thank you for your comments.  Can you elaborate on why you find it so profound?  I mean, I do too (I don't mean that in an arrogant way, it's just I don't run into a lot of people who understand the idea, and it's taken me a long time to get there), but yours insights would be appreciated.

AB, IMO you made a very astute observation.  I get the feeling that most Jews look on the Diaspora as a Bad Thing.  "Next year in Jerusalem," and all that.  But there's no way that Jew can be a light unto the nations if we're all cooped up in Israel.

Loosely paraphrased, you said Jews are yet waiting for the Messiah, and Christians believe He has been here already, but will return.

grampster, I think this points out a major difference in Jewish and Christian theology.  Whereas the Christian concept of the Messiah is based on eternal salvation of the soul from Original Sin (IOW, in the hereafter), the Jewish concept of the Messiah is of the one who will establish the Kingdom of G-d on Earth (IOW, in the here and now).  Especially since "Original Sin" is a concept alien to Judaism.

[grampster]

David,
But the Christian also believes in a 1000 year period on earth when Messiah has returned.  Could this not mitigate the differences in some way?  Might there not be a parallel here?

[matis]

quote by Antibubba:
Matis,

   I understand where you stand on the Evangelicals.  I have quite a few devout christians among my friends.  Their faith is sincere, and they do want what is best for me-which, to their way of thinking would be the accepting of Jesus Christ as my personal Savior.  But they don't press the point.  Your Evangelical friends might not push you, but they pray for your soul.  I know a lot of Christians who care about Israel:  Israel the home of Jesus, Israel the enemy of the Mohammedians, Israel as a land of freedom, and Israel as the home of their ancestral roots.  But the core of their generosity to Israel, ultimately, is the fullfillment of the prophesies in the Book of Revelations, where the faithful are taken to heaven, and the rest of us who choose the side of Good must ulimately embrace Jesus the Christ to defeat the Antichrist.  There are Christians who are raising money to start a rebuilding of the Temple, because a new Temple is part of their prophesies, not because it would be a light and benefit to Jews.

   Moslems, at least, are honest in their hopes of our destruction.  What is the saying?  Don't feed me s**t and tell me it's filet mignon.
__________________________________________________________

Antibubba, You might want to consider "not looking a gift horse in the mouth".

And, I'm sorry, but the Muslims' "honesty" does not comfort me at all.


Antibubba, I understand completely your bitterness about the Christians.  Not so long ago really, I might have expressed that even worse.

But you said that the Evangelicals want what's best for you; they just see that as being Jesus.  That's true.  But why not accept the first, the "best" part and leave the rest?  We can't have everything in life, you know?

In the past they killed us over our rejection of Christ; now they pray for us to accept Him.

Can't you see the difference?


Personally, I accept the friendship and no longer worry about the rest.  Only when I see them proselyting Jews, do I draw the line.  I have learned to take care of myself and I stop that very quickly.  In a firm but friendly fashion to start with. if they persist, I become, let us say,  "less friendly".  But I stop it.

OTOH, I have actually intervened, butted in(!), when I saw a minister working on a woman outside a restaurent I had just left.  I began working on her myself, 'cause I though he was bungling it.  I actually managed to engage her.

I have realized that America desperately needs Christianity.  As it rids itself of Christianity, that's how fast it descends into a hollow mockery of what it once was.

Do you think we could convert many people to Judaism?


But I have found that as my attitude toward Christians softened, I encountered fewer Christians who pushed on me.


My whole point here is that as I see it we face two very serious threats: the first is the gathering strength of the nihilists of all stripes who hate our Judeo-Christian civilization and are rapidly destroying it.  Please don't underestimate this threat -- if we can not turn it around, our society will surely collapse.  Then we won't have to imagine the SHTF scenarios mentioned so often on the gun boards.


The second is the threat from the new Muslim jihad.  Yesterday, the new Premier (Pres?) of Iran said that the Muslims must wipe Israel from the map.  And he threatened other Muslim leaders and their nations, saying that any Muslim who recognizes Israel is an enemy of Islam.  He pointed to Egypt and Jordan as examples.  You think he's joking?  Was Hitler joking in Mein Campf?  And this is nothing new.

I'm sure you know that Iran is almost ready with nuclear warheads and the missiles to deliver them.  Russia and the Arab nations will block the Security Council from sanctioning Iran, which probably wouldn't stop her, anyway.  Russia, China, Pakistan, even North Korea sell Iran what they need for this purpose.

There are over 1.2 billion muslims and over 200 million Arabs in 22 countries surrounding Israel.  Worse, there are 20 million Muslims now in Europe and millions in the United States.  I'm not saying all of them, but SOME of them are ALREADY collecting information on Jewish organizations, Synogues and on individual Jews.  Some have already been caught taking photos.  Not that they're uninterested in "gentile" American infrastructure.

Most Americans won't look at the truth of what is coming down on us.  Neither do most American Jews.  But it's coming, be certain of that.  The WTC was only a beginning.  Actually it began considerably before that.

First the Saturday people and then the Sunday people, say these fanatic murderers.


What will it take for us to wake up?


Stop dwelling on the past, terrible as it was, and face what's coming now.


The Christian religion is derived from Judasim.  Their values are close enough to ours to put us on the same side.

Don't worry about the differences in theology.  There is enough similar that we can  become allies to face this new darkness coming down upon us.



The believing Christians need the Jews to help them fight both the internal and the external threats.  But we need them more!

The Arabs kill Israelis constantly, blew up 5 more today in Hadera.  And "wounded" thirty.  "Wounded" is a euphemism for "blew their arms and legs off" -- mutilated them.

Meanwhile the believing Christians send love, money and they come visit Isreal themselves, while most Jews are afraid to risk it.  And you refuse to get over your bitterness about past sins?

And you prefer the Muslims' honesty over the Evangelicals' hope for us to accept Jesus -- AFTER he returns if we won't do it sooner?

With all due respect, Antibubba -- that's nuts!


I think Jews should NEVER forget what they suffered at the hands of Christians for almost 2000 years.  And we should understand that we could face that again from them.  I'm not saying to play the fool or wear rose-colored glasses.


But the people who are good to us now, are not the ones who hurt us before.  I used to yell at the Frenchies who called me "dirty Jew" and "Christ killer", when I was a kid, "I wasn't there and I didn't do it, schmuck."

Could it be you who is maybe being a bit of a schmuck, now?

Just because European Jewry buried their heads in the sand and refused to see the storm clouds, doesn't mean we have to.  And that includes the rest of the Americans



matis

[Stand_watie]

..
Also, any so-called Christians who do not follow, for example, basic laws of feasts or kashrut, but instead adopt pagan feast days are clearly in error. I do so enjoy tormenting protestants with this fact and those related to it.)

Any gentile Christians who are "tormented" by your claims need to read Acts 10, 15, 21 and 1 Corinthians 8 and 10 and quit worrying about it.

[Stand_watie]

But the people who are good to us now, are not the ones who hurt us before.  I used to yell at the Frenchies who called me "dirty Jew" and "Christ killer", when I was a kid, "I wasn't there and I didn't do it, schmuck."

I saw your comment about being originally from Canada and having faced anti-semitism there and didn't know what to make of it when I read it on THR. Now I know what you're talking about, yeah some Canadi'ens are known for that. I lived in Maine for 6 years as a kid, and the irony of that is that in Maine the French are the butt of the majority of the racism.

*Note, if it makes quoting any easier for you, if you type the word "quote" in brackets directly preceding the quotation followed by slashquote in brackets directly after the quotation the messageboard will automatically put it in a box for you

example

[kwote]spell quote correctly instead of phonetically to achieve proper result[/kwote]

and if you put an = symbol followed by the name of the person you are quoting after the first quote (still within the brackets) it will give the name of who you are quoting

[kwote=The Queen Mum]spell quote correctly instead of phonetically to achieve proper result[/kwote]

spell quote correctly instead of phonetically to achieve proper result

[matis]

quote by Stand_watie:
 If you put a lot of work into something you should try to save it, and I think the work you're putting in is both worthwhile and publishable. I don't say just as  Joe Shmoe, but as a lifetime heavy reader, a lot of the reading religious (My dad's a writer). If you do decide to try to publish and want to make contacts in the Christian writing community PM me.
__________________________________________________________

Thank you, again.  When I post about Israel or about Judaism I DO now save the writing in a folder in Word.  I have thought about publishing, but have no experience with that.  When the time comes I think it would be appropriate to seek a Jewish or a non-religious publisher.  But if your offer stands, I would sure like to communicate for advice and support.



 
By Stand_Watie:
Your spiritual awakening reminds me of an allegorical awakening chronicled by Lewis in one of the 'Narnia' books.
___________________________________________________________

I clicked on your URL and I see why you suggested it.  I have never read C.S. Lewis, but his SCREW TAPE LETTERS sits on my shelf.  I might just pick it up


I have read only a little in the New Testament, but when I read your quote from Corinthians, I recognized it twice.  Once because I had seen it before.  And once because the parts you bolded -- reverberated.

The theology may be different, but the experience is the same.  I am moved listening to Ave Maria and St Matthew's Passion.  Does that  leave me open to conversion?  Of course not.  Anyone of any religion can hear the cry for transcendence and the joy these composers communicate --  if he would.  I heard it plainly even as a militant atheist (grin).  I just wouldn't deal with that then and of course, I had to denigrate the idea (not the music).



It is good to be "heard" by someone Stand_Watie (you).

Thank you,


matis

[matis]

I think this statement does more to unify Jews and Christians, take some of the argument away if you will, if, when the Messiah returns, the Jews as well as Christians realize who He is at that point.  I am probably not being as clear as I would like.

   "So what".  That is sort of the key to the unification that we could enjoy at the moment.   As a Christian I need to live my faith based on what I believe while I'm alive, to the best of my ability, which is not good enough, but I am justified by Jesus.  As a Jew, you need to do the same, but justification by the Messiah comes later, as ...All Israel will be saved."  So perhaps we should not be arguing about Messiah, Christian and Jew, but joining together to live our lives spritually as best we can, together knowing that the future is not bleak at all.

grampster,

I welcome the idea of uniting with the Christians as allies to handle what faces us.  And to be friends.

But I'm not sure what you mean By "unification".

I don't mean to find a way to "blend" us, the way the Reform and Conservative Rabbis seem to try when they have "ecumenical" meetings with ministers.


The Jewish Messiah and the Christian Messiah are NOT the same at all.  The concept or category of Messiah is the same; you got that from us.  But your Messiah is different.

The Jewish Messiah will be a man, not a G-d.  The Christians have changed the idea of what a Messiah is in ways that are completely un-acceptable to Jews.

No Jew can ever accept Jesus.  When I said, "so what", I meant that, to the extent I can accept the idea of a Messiah at all -- I am a work in progress, don't forget -- I expect Moshiach, the Jewish Messiah.  I could never believe in any other.

And you believe that Jesus, the son of G-d, is the Messiah and that he will come again.


So, again we have 3 possibilities:  1) When Messiah comes he will be the Jewish one and you guys will have to accept that and "know G-d", who is Hashem.

2) When Messiah comes he will be Jesus and you guys were right.  So we'll have to accept that.  Who's going to argue with G-d, face-to-face, whoever he turns out to be?  So all will know G-d, the Christian version.

Or 3) The idea is from mythology and we're all "waiting for Godot".

That's what I meant when I said, "so what?"


You want to "take away some of the argument?"  I want to do that, too.


But we must meet as equals who respect each other's differences.  If you hope that I'll some day believe in Jesus, I'd rather that you didn't. But I can live with it, if you don't push it on me.

You wouldn't want me to try to pull you away from Christianity to my "truer" religion, would you?  So let us live and let live -- and be friends.

So you see, those who called the Jews a "stiff-necked people'  weren't kidding, were they?


While we're waiting, there is a tough job to get done.  And we need each other to do it.


In friendship,


matis

[matis]

In biblical times, a child "inherited" his Jewishness from his father. According to one common interpretation, in the Book of Leviticus, a "half-caste Danite" man who had a Jewish mother but an Egyptian father was rejected as not "belonging." This example illustrates that at the time, Jewishness depended on descent through the father, contrary to today's practice. For example, Joseph's children are considered Jews, though their mother Asenath was the daughter of an Egyptian priest of On, and Moses' children, though their mother Zipporah was a Cushite from present-day Ethiopia. Arbitrarily choosing one gender or another to determine or deny the state of belonging to an ethno-religious group is a manmade concept.

Yes Blackburn, I've read that, too.


But that was in Biblical times -- kind of a long time ago.

My main concern is Jewish continuity, Jewish survival.

We've survived thousands of years since Zipporah and the others you mention.

What contributed to that survival for most of that time, especially in the later period, was matrilineal descent.

So I'll stick with that and leave the kind of points you make above to Hallachic experts.  Which I am not, nor are you.

I do so enjoy tormenting protestants with this fact and those related to it. Ishtar Sunday is an especial favorite of mine. (I say this from a position of logical observation, not participation)

Yep, I used to enjoy beating goyim at religious arguments, too.


Until I realized that I was indulging myself and achieving no good purpose.  What's the matter, there isn't enough anti-Semitism around so that you have to go stir up more?


Maybe you should cut them and yourself some slack, Blackburn and figure out something constructive to do?




Sorry to be so blunt, Blackburn, but what you wrote bugs me.



matis

[matis]

*Note, if it makes quoting any easier for you, if you type the word "quote" in brackets directly preceding the quotation followed by slashquote in brackets directly after the quotation the messageboard will automatically put it in a box for you

Hey Stand-Watie, it works!!



matis

[Stand_watie]

In biblical times, a child "inherited" his Jewishness from his father. According to one common interpretation, in the Book of Leviticus, a "half-caste Danite" man who had a Jewish mother but an Egyptian father was rejected as not "belonging." This example illustrates that at the time, Jewishness depended on descent through the father, contrary to today's practice. For example, Joseph's children are considered Jews, though their mother Asenath was the daughter of an Egyptian priest of On, and Moses' children, though their mother Zipporah was a Cushite from present-day Ethiopia. Arbitrarily choosing one gender or another to determine or deny the state of belonging to an ethno-religious group is a manmade concept.

Yes Blackburn, I've read that, too...

I came across several reviews of 'Hitler's Jews' while looking up that particular issue, and since you've both read it, do you recommend or disrecommend it?

[Stand_watie]

...shattered by someone intelligently criticizing something for which they have no independantly created defense, go and perform pagan rituals in a storm drain. I do find splinters around my (stealth concrete filled) mailbox from time to time.

It is sad that such a poor criticism would cause upset to supposed Christians. You'd expect that people who call themselves such would know the basic tenets of their own faith.

[Dave Markowitz]

David,
But the Christian also believes in a 1000 year period on earth when Messiah has returned.  Could this not mitigate the differences in some way?  Might there not be a parallel here?

It's only a partial parallel.  As has been pointed out, the Christian concept of the Messiah incorporates the belief that he is G-d.  The Jewish Messiah, OTH, is a man.

[The Rabbi]

Quote: me
    Contrary to what the feminists believe, Judaism teaches reverence for women.  They are the main-stay of Jewish life.  And it doesn't matter who your father was.  It is ONLY if your MOTHER was Jewish that you are a Jew.
_______________________________
Quote: Blackburn:
And you know why that is, right?
_______________________________________


My first answer is because Halakhah (Jewish law) says so.

My 2nd:  'cause it's much easier to know who the mother was than who the father was.

My 3rd answer is a question: Have you any idea what guilt a Jewish mother can instill?



Now, what did YOU have in mind?




matis




matis

In biblical times, a child "inherited" his Jewishness from his father. According to one common interpretation, in the Book of Leviticus, a "half-caste Danite" man who had a Jewish mother but an Egyptian father was rejected as not "belonging." This example illustrates that at the time, Jewishness depended on descent through the father, contrary to today's practice. For example, Joseph's children are considered Jews, though their mother Asenath was the daughter of an Egyptian priest of On, and Moses' children, though their mother Zipporah was a Cushite from present-day Ethiopia. Arbitrarily choosing one gender or another to determine or deny the state of belonging to an ethno-religious group is a manmade concept.

This is commonly quoted (esp in Reform circles) but is equally incorrect.  Tribal affiliation is passed through the father but Jewish status through the mother.  Thus one is a kohen or Levi if his father was but a Jew if his mother was.

[grampster]

Matis and Dave and whoever else is present that has a stiff neck ()

I respect both of you and your beliefs.  My way of proseletyzing is not with words, but with deeds.  I'll never, I hope, argue gnats or even bigger critters.  I only really seek knowledge from my fellow friends who are of The Chosen.  I hope I live my life in such a fashion that I can hope to be "a lamp" and others would wonder why I'm so content and joyful.  I fully believe we worship the same God; I AM THAT I AM.  I truly love Israel and consider myself a step child of Israel.  For if Israel did not exist, imho, there would be no hope for me, or anyone, for that matter.  That is not to say that my hope is in Israel, rather it is in Christ and Israel is chosen of God.

In friendship,
grampster

[Dave Markowitz]

Hey grampster,

Just so you know, I haven't seen you post anything that I could remotely find offensive.  AAMOF, this thread is a GREAT example of several people who have different religious beliefs having a civil discussion.

Carry on.  

[grampster]

Matis,

Perhaps "unification" is not a particularly proper word, as those who are the chosen and those who have been grafted in, perhaps do not need unification.  We may, rather, be different parts of the whole body.  Each has it's own defined function and responsibility, but at the end of the day, each part supports the whole.
Much has been said about this in previous posts, with respect to how most Christians today stand with Israel.  The past is the past and is valuable as a document of what has been.  We have today, and no guarantee of tomorrow, so for today let us rejoice.

 See oh Israel, the day the Lord has made.  Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God is One.  Blessed art thou oh Lord our God, who brings forth food from the Earth.

That is how I start each of my days.

[matis]

 I came across several reviews of 'Hitler's Jews' while looking up that particular issue, and since you've both read it, do you recommend or disrecommend it?

Stand_watie, I have come across material similar to what Blackburn wrote, but I haven't read, Hitler's Jews.



matis

[matis]

All correct except for one thing- I'm not Jewish.

Sorry, Blackburn. I apologize for my mistaken assumption and for grumping at you.


matis

[matis]

Hey grampster,

Just so you know, I haven't seen you post anything that I could remotely find offensive.  AAMOF, this thread is a GREAT example of several people who have different religious beliefs having a civil discussion.

Grampster, I agree with Dave.  Same goes for me.  I'm fine with you.


matis

[Stand_watie]

 I came across several reviews of 'Hitler's Jews' while looking up that particular issue, and since you've both read it, do you recommend or disrecommend it?

Stand_watie, I have come across material similar to what Blackburn wrote, but I haven't read, Hitler's Jews.



matis

I miscited the name of the book, sorry. The name was Hitler's Jewish Soldiers: The Untold Story of Nazi Racial Laws and Men of Jewish Descent in the German Military and the paragraph below was from the first chapter. I assumed you two were referencing the same work (BTW, I don't have any opinion either way, I'll leave that to the experts).

In biblical times, a child "inherited" his Jewishness from his father. According to one common interpretation, in the Book of Leviticus, a "half-caste Danite" man who had a Jewish mother but an Egyptian father was rejected as not "belonging." This example illustrates that at the time, Jewishness depended on descent through the father, contrary to today's practice. For example, Joseph's children are considered Jews, though their mother Asenath was the daughter of an Egyptian priest of On, and Moses' children, though their mother Zipporah was a Cushite from present-day Ethiopia

http://www.wnyc.org/books/968