Author Topic: Reform Jews Clueless On Guns  (Read 20190 times)

The Rabbi

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« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2005, 05:03:26 PM »
As I said, that is inaccurate.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2005, 05:44:05 PM »
Quote from: Blackburn
I respect and enthusiastically accept as a friend anyone who claims a religion and works to ensure that they follow it. I mean, if they genuinely believe it's the difference between an afterlife or hell, you'd expect them to do their damndest to be doing everything right.
Pardon me if I won't lose any sleep over your claim that I have to convert to Judaism to be a Christian.

 Your confusions is understandable I suppose, as so many Christians themselves are confused, or perhaps I should say 'cultural Christians'. Do you have a reputable theological source for claiming that Christians are required to follow the Mosaic covenant or are you just repeating "Christians" who haven't even bothered to read their own Testament?
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2005, 07:28:15 PM »
Quote from: Blackburn
Cliff's notes: Paul taught people to keep the feasts and follow 'torah'. When he was accused of teaching people to abandon 'torah', he said that the claims were false. So, who was lying- Paul or his accusers?
No Cliff notes neccessary.

I cited Paul above in regards to the matter. Your source is twisting the reference.  James was quoting unnamed accusers when he said that Paul had been accused of teaching Jews to abandon Torah. The issue had already been covered previously at the council of Jerusalem. The very same passage lays out entirely different guidelines for gentiles which Paul goes even further to disavow in future teachings.


If you want to inform yourself on Christian theology, you might try Paul himself, rather than wherever your getting your misinformation.  Here's a few starter passages from Paul that distinguish between law of the Mosaic covenant and that of the Christian covenant.
 
****
A note to my Jewish friends on the forum, below are the words of the apostle Paul - I post them not to start a debate over whether Christianity or Judaism is correct, but to correct Mr. Blackburn's misunderstanding that I have to be circumcised and eat kosher to be a "Christian"
***


Galations 5

2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Romans 14

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. ..14[/b]As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

1 Timothy 4

1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

1 Corinthians 10

23"Everything is permissible"but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
 25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."[c]  27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake[d] 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

Colosians 2

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.  20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence
 19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

Ephesians 2

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. One in Christ  11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men) 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.  14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit


Romans 3

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.  27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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Stand_watie

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« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2005, 08:02:43 PM »
Quote from: Blackburn
Actually, that looks very well put. I can now start taking that to the Messianics. :$ Thank you. Smiley
You're welcome. Keep in mind though that I don't claim to know what's right for other people (particularly those born Jewish). Also keep in mind the religious issue that was formost to Paul was proseletizing for others to accept his faith, not to reject their own religious rituals (at least those he didn't object to, obviously he wanted the gentiles of the day to stop their religious rituals of fornicating with temple priestesses). Paul never claimed there was anything wrong with following what he believed was the Mosaic covenant as well as faith in the Christian covenant.

 
If I were eating with Messianics or Orthodox Jews I would eat Kosher. For that matter if I were eating with Muslims I'd eat Halal.  Paul was clear that my freedom to eat what I please isn't a freedom that I can use to cause a spiritual impediment to my brothers. American 'fundamentalists' are much the same way about alcohol, and I don't drink around those of them who I think it will offend either.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

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« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2005, 12:25:17 AM »
What was Jesus' position on keeping Jewish law?

Stand_watie

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« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2005, 01:01:47 AM »
Quote from: Barbara
What was Jesus' position on keeping Jewish law?
I don't know if he addressed the issue of Jewish law regarding gentiles. He was a practicing Jew himself, and it's my opinion that he kept both the letter of Mosaic covenant and the spirit of new covenant.


Mark 2
 
 23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
 25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."  27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath

Matthew 15

10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "  12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"  13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."  15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."  16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "


Luke 11

37When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised.
 39Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41But give what is inside the dish [j] to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

richyoung

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« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2005, 04:34:10 AM »
You rock, Stand_watie!
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2005, 04:35:44 AM »
Quote
I don't know if he addressed the issue of Jewish law regarding gentiles. He was a practicing Jew himself, and it's my opinion that he kept both the letter of Mosaic covenant and the spirit of new covenant.
Your citations do not seem to support your contention here.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2005, 05:07:24 AM »
The Rabbi. Certainly if you are to take the position of the Pharisees or the Sagucees, the citations don't support the contention. I'll reiterate what I stated above, that I don't wish to attempt to debate the rightness of the Christian vs. the Judaic theology - I think it would not only be unproductive, but counterproductive - I specifically used the verbiage my opinion because I'm aware it conflicts with current orthodox (by that I mean traditional rather than the specific sect) Jewish doctrine.

Rich, thanks but I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything in particular there but cite some fairly basic orthodox (again "traditional" rather than the sect) Christian doctrine/passages. If my citation seems particularly apt it is (sadly) more a statement of the uneducation of Christians in general rather than any cleverness on my part or even a good education (every one of those passages I had to google by keyword to remember specifically where they were found). A couple good resources in that regard are

http://bible.gospelcom.net/

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

The Hebrew translation is particularly good, because if you are a Christian English only speaker you can find a particular word and have the resources of the best Hebrew speaking Jewish and Christian scholars in the world to help you figure out nuances that are missed in translation - downloading the language-pak is well worth the drive space.


Blackburn, I spent a little while looking around the web this morning after my last post, for a better, more easily understandable explanation than I gave you - more than just a list of citations - and I found a really decent article. This hashes out the council of Jerusalem and the particulars of the debate on exactly the subject we are discussing now between Paul and some of the other early Christians. I hope you'll use it to expand your own understanding, and not to discomfit people who don't believe exactly the way I do.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1347
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2005, 07:07:44 AM »
Quote from: Stand_watie
The Rabbi. Certainly if you are to take the position of the Pharisees or the Sagucees, the citations don't support the contention. I'll reiterate what I stated above, that I don't wish to attempt to debate the rightness of the Christian vs. the Judaic theology - I think it would not only be unproductive, but counterproductive - I specifically used the verbiage my opinionbecause I'm aware it conflicts with current orthodox (by that I mean traditional rather than the specific sect) Jewish doctrine.
I'll mention that the Pharisees were the good guys.  Also that the Pharisees were history's winners.
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richyoung

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« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2005, 08:09:15 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
I'll mention that the Pharisees were the good guys.  Also that the Pharisees were history's winners.
Having stood in the ominous shadow of the ovens at Dachau, and having seen on television the mosque on the Temple grounds, if the Pharisees were "history's winners", what, pray tell would "losers" look like?  Many American Christians pray for, and support, Israel and her people, ...despite repeated Isreali spies caught working against our countries interest, ...despite the unrepentant war crime of the deliberate and cowardly attack on the U.S.S. Liberty, an essentially unarmed ship of an ally in neutral waters at the time - an attack that included machine gunning streacher bearers and life rafts, ...despite the Israeli government's taking technology we supply for her defense, reverse-engineering it, and selling it to our enemies, like Red China.  Do I hold the modern Jews culpable for the actions of a corrupt Roman puppet regime 2000 years ago?  Surely not!  To do so would be unjust.  Would I ever contend that God does not hear the prayers of Jews?  Absolutely not!  Who am I to put binds on the Creator of all things?  My Christ is a Jew, and can hear the prayers of Jews if he so desires, and as a Gentile, I am only grafted onto the tree of life by his grace.  I hope the Children of Israel remember those that seek justice must do justice, and of those whom much is given, much is expected.  One can only admire the feats of arms the Israelis have achieved, but should also not forget that it was Gentile technology and Gentile treasure that often made the difference between victory and defeat.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2005, 08:16:58 AM »
The losers aren't around to talk about it.

What the rest of that screed had to do with the topic is beyond me.
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richyoung

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« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2005, 09:41:15 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
The losers aren't around to talk about it.

What the rest of that screed had to do with the topic is beyond me.
Seems to me there are plenty of Christians around these days....
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2005, 03:02:10 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
I'll mention ..  Also that the Pharisees were history's winners.
I'll take your word for that  as I'm sure your reading of the last couple thousand years of Jewish history is a lot more comprehensive than mine.

Rich, I think (emphasis on think as 'the Rabbi' is parsimonious enough with words that I frequently scratch my head in regards to what he means) that by 'winners' and 'losers' he's referring to the dispensation of the theology of two sects within modern Jewish thought.
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Matthew Carberry

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« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2005, 12:58:00 PM »
IIRC (haven't checked the books or notes) from a Christian theological perspective, Jesus' position on Mosaic Law was that:

A) it was now superceded by the New Covenant as a means of salvation (salvation through faith in Him as the Messiah); and

B) that many (the Pharisee's) put so much effort and importance into PUBLICALLY demonstrating their adherence to the Law that they actually neglected to care for people or truly acknowledge God.  Also, they would use other's failure to be as pious to control/humiliate them.  Aggrandizing themselves at the expense of others.

His actions in violation of the Law were to emphasize that life is about a personal relationship with God with Jesus as mediator, not rigorous adherence, that the Law could actually be a stumbling block to true faith.  

One interpretation I've heard and read was that the complexity of the Law itself was to make plain the inability of man to, through his actions, be "good" enough to truly walk with God personally.  Instead, he would have to turn to God in submission and achieve that presence through grace, not works.
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« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2005, 02:52:59 PM »
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote from: The Rabbi
I'll mention ..  Also that the Pharisees were history's winners.
I'll take your word for that  as I'm sure your reading of the last couple thousand years of Jewish history is a lot more comprehensive than mine.

Rich, I think (emphasis on think as 'the Rabbi' is parsimonious enough with words that I frequently scratch my head in regards to what he means) that by 'winners' and 'losers' he's referring to the dispensation of the theology of two sects within modern Jewish thought.
All Jews today are descendents of the Pharisees.  The Sadducees died out or assimilated.  Judaism today is a reflection of the Pharisaic version, which was obviously the correct one.  The winner in history is the one who survived. and the Pharisees survived quite well.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2005, 03:10:44 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
The Sadducees died out or assimilated.  Judaism today is a reflection of the Pharisaic version, which was obviously the correct one.  The winner in history is the one who survived. and the Pharisees survived quite well.
I thought they were just a different theological bent, I didn't realize they were ethnically distinct from the pharisees.

Too bad we can't resurrect a Sadducee just to argue with you. But then, since they didn't believe in resurrection they'd be proven wrong just in the process Cheesy
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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The Rabbi

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« Reply #92 on: October 29, 2005, 04:04:57 PM »
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote from: The Rabbi
The Sadducees died out or assimilated.  Judaism today is a reflection of the Pharisaic version, which was obviously the correct one.  The winner in history is the one who survived. and the Pharisees survived quite well.
I thought they were just a different theological bent, I didn't realize they were ethnically distinct from the pharisees.

Too bad we can't resurrect a Sadducee just to argue with you. But then, since they didn't believe in resurrection they'd be proven wrong just in the process Cheesy
No, that's correct--they just followed a different path.   But philosophically/theologically they died out.  But their progeny are still around: Karaites and Reform.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #93 on: October 29, 2005, 05:48:57 PM »
Well if the Karaites and Reform start telling you that they are the High Priests then you better watch out Cheesy

I figure the descendents of the Essenes are all in Israel right now advising Sharon on how to keep suicide bombers from breaching checkpoints.
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Antibubba

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« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2005, 11:16:33 PM »
How enlightening!  I had to go look up Karaite, which led me to the Samaritans.  I learn something every day.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2005, 06:02:17 AM »
Actually the karaites are still around, albeit in declining numbers.  At one time they were a major force in the Jewish world.

I'll add on reflection that I recall a book whose thesis was that Jesus was a Pharisee, or at least had come from that tradition.  It might have been called "Jesus the Jew" and written by Dr. Geza Vermes.  Then again it might not.
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Antibubba

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« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2005, 01:39:47 PM »
Yes, the Karaites are still around.  I'm not certain how their beliefs are in line with that of Reform Judaism, though.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2005, 02:24:13 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Actually the karaites are still around, albeit in declining numbers.  At one time they were a major force in the Jewish world.

I'll add on reflection that I recall a book whose thesis was that Jesus was a Pharisee, or at least had come from that tradition.  It might have been called "Jesus the Jew" and written by Dr. Geza Vermes.  Then again it might not.
You know, while looking up that book I discovered that it is actually considered controversial in some circles to say "Jesus was a Jew". How odd. As antibubba says, you learn something new every day.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"