Author Topic: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit  (Read 11041 times)

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2012, 11:51:47 AM »
Trouble is that now a lot of people think those same forests and grasslands should be preserved and/or used strictly for recreation instead of for harvesting timber and cattle grazing.

It's a mighty effort for the Forest Circus to even sell off fire-killed timber for harvest, because the wood rots beyond usefulness before all the litigation gets settled  :facepalm:

I don't disagree, forest policy changed from strickly timber reserves and water protection to multiuse purposes starting in the 1950's but some how the proponents of the recreation/wildlife habitat/environmentalist forget about the other two as part of the multiuse laws.

This seems to be more of a problem in the West, some in the East but the Northwood National Forests are usually left alone to be harvested/managed.
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2012, 11:58:46 AM »
And another example of how once you get the fed.gov involved the problem only gets worse.


Does the Forest Circus still have the stupid idea of fighting every fire instead of periodically allowing them to burn out the undergrowth and "litter" that's makes fires worse?

How about when it does sell timber, selling it for loss?

If the bunny-huggers want to "Preserve" land, how about buying it, instead of suing the owners and/or the fed.gov?

 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2012, 12:11:38 PM »
Does the Forest Circus still have the stupid idea of fighting every fire instead of periodically allowing them to burn out the undergrowth and "litter" that's makes fires worse?

No, they normally let it burn unless it threatens residential areas or areas of significance.

Controled burns are hard because of legal battles and so forth.

The put it out before noon policy has been gone for many years. 

Quote
How about when it does sell timber, selling it for loss?

I don't know how to answer this since most standing timber is sold on bids.

Quote
If the bunny-huggers want to "Preserve" land, how about buying it, instead of suing the owners and/or the fed.gov?

They do but land has to be for sale first. Groups like the Nature Conservancy already do this.



 

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2012, 12:23:02 PM »
Quote
How about when it does sell timber, selling it for loss?

That one is pretty sore for me  :mad:

The whole "loss" thing is mostly accounting, and all the ridiculous administration overhead that they add to the process - thus making it "cost" more than what the timber was worth to begin with.  ;/

Often timber is removed for some other purpose than "profit" such as fire danger reduction or disease control.  Back in the 1980s in Colorado, the USFS was bulldozing areas of trees down and into piles and burning them, because they claimed that was cheaper than the administration costs of a timber sale  :facepalm:

Back in the 1990s I did some research, and for many decades before that the USFS derived it's "revenue" from about 85% timber permits, 10% grazing and mining permits, and 5% recreation fees.

BUT - that money doesn't go to the USFS, it goes into the US general treasury and then the USFS gets an appropriation, which historically for that same time period amounted to only about 10% of total USFS receipts.  Much of that appropriation was spent on recreational facilities, meaning that logging/grazing/mining were subsidizing the recreational industry.

So while there may have been "losses" on individual timber sales, the USFS as a whole made a great deal of money percentage wise for the us.gov - the profit margins were in excess of 900%  :P


Since then, I'm guessing that the USFS has not brought in so much timber sale revenue because there have been so few timber sales compared to previous decades.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2012, 08:14:31 AM »
How about when it does sell timber, selling it for loss?

Another one to get grumpy about is that BLM rents their land for grazing at a loss. Congress sets the rates by law but since cattle grazing on public land is popular in the western states the elected officals don't want to loose votes by upsetting the cattle producers.

BLM land is rented out by AUM (animal unit months) which is figured at enough land to support one cow and one calf for one month. The rate is low enough that the BLM looses money when figure out their income from rent and money spent to manage the land.
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,674
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2012, 08:29:58 AM »
. . . money spent to manage the land. 
Most of this probably involves lardbutt desk warmers in the Civil Service shuffling papers rather than doing actual land management.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2012, 09:02:55 AM »
If a spider has ever saved mankind from any freakin' thing, I'll wear Monkeyleg's moccasins.


Spidersilk has been used in wound treatment. Currently efforts are under way to either breed spiders for silk, or, preferably, to 'teach' some other species to make it.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2012, 09:50:51 AM »
Most of this probably involves lardbutt desk warmers in the Civil Service shuffling papers rather than doing actual land management.

Every organization has those public and private.
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2012, 11:39:32 AM »
Another one to get grumpy about is that BLM rents their land for grazing at a loss. Congress sets the rates by law but since cattle grazing on public land is popular in the western states the elected officals don't want to loose votes by upsetting the cattle producers.

BLM land is rented out by AUM (animal unit months) which is figured at enough land to support one cow and one calf for one month. The rate is low enough that the BLM looses money when figure out their income from rent and money spent to manage the land.

Most of this probably involves lardbutt desk warmers in the Civil Service shuffling papers rather than doing actual land management.

This ... :(

Not to mention that the rancher leasing the land has to do most or all of the upkeep like fencing and maintaining water sources.  I'm not sure what the hell the BLM does except annoy people - except for their fire fighting crews.

Also, BLM land out west is basically the leftovers that nobody would even bother to file a homestead claim on - IOW, mostly the worst and least productive land.  You can't compare it dollar for dollar with prime private pasture.

And with the extreme fire danger we have been seeing lately, they should almost be paying the ranchers to graze their cows and reduce the fuel load  :laugh:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MrsSmith

  • I do declare, someone needs an ass whoopin'
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,734
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2012, 08:00:35 PM »
Spidersilk has been used in wound treatment. Currently efforts are under way to either breed spiders for silk, or, preferably, to 'teach' some other species to make it.

Leave it to Micro. 

As to silk, that's what God made silkworms for.

There is nothing good or natural about a creature with 8 legs that releases a substance out of it's ass that it uses to hunt with, eat with, and dwell in. Just ain't natural I tell you.
America is at that awkward stage; It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. ~ Claire Wolfe

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2012, 10:04:17 PM »
There is nothing good or natural about a creature with 8 legs that releases a substance out of it's ass that it uses to hunt with, eat with, and dwell in. Just ain't natural I tell you.

Not to mention depriving the world of perfectly good bacon  :lol:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MrsSmith

  • I do declare, someone needs an ass whoopin'
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,734
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2012, 08:26:20 AM »
I see what you did there.
America is at that awkward stage; It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. ~ Claire Wolfe

bedlamite

  • Hold my beer and watch this!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,800
  • Ack! PLBTTPHBT!
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2012, 03:23:52 PM »
Yum, bananas!

A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

MrsSmith

  • I do declare, someone needs an ass whoopin'
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,734
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2012, 03:38:31 PM »
Note to self: never buy bananas again.
America is at that awkward stage; It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. ~ Claire Wolfe

erictank

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,410
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2012, 05:45:40 PM »
Note to self: never buy bananas again.

Buy 'em loose, so 8-legged critters can't hide in the center of the bag.

Re: image - with the handily-sealed-closed bag, all you've got to do is swing the bag into, say, a column or table or something. Violently and repeatedly. Voila! No more spider!

No, *I* wont be buying that bunch of bananas afterwards. Why do you ask?

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2012, 06:13:22 PM »
Well, at least that bunch of bananas wouldn't have any flies in it  :angel:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MrsSmith

  • I do declare, someone needs an ass whoopin'
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,734
Re: Texas - another place dropped from the list of places to visit
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2012, 06:39:16 PM »
Hmmm. Let's see. Fly vs. spider? I'll take flies.
America is at that awkward stage; It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. ~ Claire Wolfe