Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Angel Eyes on April 10, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
-
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/10/politics/congress-gun-laws/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
In a breakthrough on gun legislation, two U.S. senators -- a Democrat and a Republican -- announced on Wednesday they worked out a compromise on expanding background checks on firearms buyers to include gun shows and Internet sales.
The deal reached by Sens. Joe Manchin, D-West Virginia, and Pat Toomey, R-Pennsylvania, sets up the likelihood of a major Senate debate on gun legislation starting as soon as Thursday, when the chamber is expected to overcome a GOP filibuster attempt to block the proposals.
....
Manchin noted that the proposal meant that firearms buyers at gun shows and on the Internet would face the same background check currently required in sales by federally licensed gun dealers.
He addressed a concern of the NRA that expanding background checks would burden law-abiding gun owners seeking to trade or gift weapons in a personal transfer, saying "personal transfers are not touched whatsoever."
It's not clear to me how this would be iimplemented. Apparently all sales at gun shows would require background checks (and, I presume, form 4473 to be filled out for each). What is an "internet sale"? If someone posts on ad on craigslist, for example, and the seller and buyer live in the same state, would this "compromise" require a background check? And how would that requirement be met?
Your thoughts?
-
This is a "no big deal" right now kind of thing.
It's going to affect the non-ffl'ed tables at gun shows, and that's about it.
But once it is established, some other omnibus 5000 page piece of legislation can append this stuff on the sly. And it's merely a "minor modification" rather than brand new legislation. ;/
-
Kill it with fire.
-
Kill it with fire.
Then piss on it, hit it with gasoline, and burn it some more.
-
It also exempts people from NICS if they have a CCW.
And makes it legal for dealers to sell guns outside theirr home state.
-
It also exempts people from NICS if they have a CCW.
And makes it legal for dealers to sell guns outside theirr home state.
Easily taken away. Not worth the encroachment.
Just another '86 FOPA.
-
I would like to read the actual language. Can't wrap my mind around the theory that checks are required, but personal transfers won't be impacted.
-
I would like to read the actual language. Can't wrap my mind around the theory that checks are required, but personal transfers won't be impacted.
Maybe they are making something that is already illegal, illegal =|
-
Easily taken away. Not worth the encroachment.
Just another '86 FOPA.
How would you like filling out a yellow form for every ammo purchase?
-
I would like to read the actual language. Can't wrap my mind around the theory that checks are required, but personal transfers won't be impacted.
If a friend comes over, and you sell him your Glock, no check required. If you advertise your Glock in a classified ad - surprise! Background chex!!
-
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/10/senators-to-unveil-proposed-compromise-on-gun-background-checks-as-vote-looms/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/10/senators-to-unveil-proposed-compromise-on-gun-background-checks-as-vote-looms/)
The proposal, which would be voted on as an amendment,
That means this is only part of it, and we don't have a clue what the rest of the bill is or whether it will pass or not.
-
How would you like filling out a yellow form for every ammo purchase?
There was a time, that I can remember, when every ammo purchase was logged.
-
There was a time, that I can remember, when every ammo purchase was logged.
I think that is MB's point, FOPA was a true compromise where some good things were surrendered, and some bad things were removed.
The counter point is that this proposal hasn't named any compromise component, its all surrender and no return.
-
This is just the summary, we still need to see the actual bill:
http://www.toomey.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=965 (http://www.toomey.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=965)
Still way more take than give, but it does loosen interstate sales.
-
Family transfers and some private sales (friends, neighbors, other individuals) are exempt from background checks
Hmmm, we're all friends - right ??? ;)
And remember what Jesus said about neighbors :angel:
-
This is just the summary, we still need to see the actual bill:
http://www.toomey.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=965 (http://www.toomey.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=965)
Still way more take than give, but it does loosen interstate sales.
Bans private sales.
Kill it with fire.
-
Bans private sales.
Kill it with fire.
My above statement stands
-
Somebody please tell me how a FFL is going to be able to run a background check through NICS and complete the 4473 on merchandise that has never gone through his bound book.
Are all FFLs going to have to provide this service upon request? Upon demand?
Suppose there is a "designated FFL" at gun shows to cover the otherwise formerly private sales. Will they be precluded from offering any other FFL work during the gunshow? Who sets up the rotation sachedule if there is not going to be a single designated FFL? Can a FFL refuse to participate in the rotation schedule? Wouldn't a "dedicated" gunshow FFL be a kitchen table licensee as opposed to one with a B&M presence?
I have so many questions.
And I have not yet gotten around to the 4473s.
stay safe.
-
Somebody please tell me how a FFL is going to be able to run a background check through NICS and complete the 4473 on merchandise that has never gone through his bound book.
Guess you haven't been to Kalifornia since about, oh, 1999?
All firearm sales, including personal transactions, require an FFL with background check out there.
Wanna sell a buddy your gun? You both head to an FFL dealer, the seller surrenders the gun to the FFL, who then runs the check, does the 4473, and initiates the waiting period.
When the NICS check comes back ok and the waiting period has completed, the buyer is free to retrieve his new firearm from the FFL holder.
IIRC, the FFL charges a nominal fee for the service.
(Of course, that's what the residents who choose to abide by that law do. I can't speak for those who still buy/sell the old-fashioned way...)
-
Kill it with fire.
Indeed. That is what I will tell my senators. Hopefully Cruz & the white haired guy will KIWF, jump on the hot ashes, and then whip out their jimmies & piss it down into the gutter.
-
CNN was playing all gun related stuff today I believe.
-
I think that is MB's point, FOPA was a true compromise where some good things were surrendered, and some bad things were removed.
The counter point is that this proposal hasn't named any compromise component, its all surrender and no return.
- Permits interstate handgun sales from dealers.
- Authorizes use of a state concealed carry permit instead of a background check when purchasing a firearm from a dealer.
Summary of Title II: This section of the bill requires background checks for sales at gun shows and online while securing certain aspects of 2nd Amendment rights for law abiding citizens.
As far as I understand, the bill's main drawback is requiring checks for online and gun show sales - other personal transfers are exempt.
-
As far as I understand, the bill's main drawback is requiring checks for online and gun show sales - other personal transfers are exempt.
Bzzzzt. Do not pass go.
It says FAMILY and "temporary" transfers are exempt. It DOES say "closing the 'gun show' and 'other' loopholes" meaning PRIVATE (but non-family, non temporary) transfers.
-
Then piss on it, hit it with gasoline, and burn it some more.
This calls for something a little more extreme. Take it down to the National Ignition Laboratories and use it for target practice in the fusion chamber.
-
Bzzzzt. Do not pass go.
It says FAMILY and "temporary" transfers are exempt. It DOES say "closing the 'gun show' and 'other' loopholes" meaning PRIVATE (but non-family, non temporary) transfers.
I've heard different interpretations of this phrasing. We'll have to see the bill, I guess.
-
I've heard different interpretations of this phrasing. We'll have to see the bill, I guess.
Sorry, we have to pass it to see what's in it. /Pelosi
-
Doesn't matter what's in it, no more compromises
Go read lawdogs post on compromise.
Our cake is getting quite small, and every time they want to compromise they take a little more
-
Doesn't matter what's in it, no more compromises
Go read lawdogs post on compromise.
Our cake is getting quite small, and every time they want to compromise they take a little more
So don't you want to take some back?
-
So don't you want to take some back?
Not at what they want to trade for. No way. Add that to the fact that we really don't know what it says. NO *expletive deleted*ing Way.
-
Not at what they want to trade for. No way. Add that to the fact that we really don't know what it says. NO *expletive deleted* Way.
QFT.
-
This is either a purely for show law that does essentially nothing (bans things that are already illegal) or a dangerous fuzzy law where you can never be sure what is legal and what is not.
What if you meet your friend or family at a gunshow? :facepalm:
-
We'll have to see the bill, I guess.
But...outrage based on speculation is so much more fun. I will admit that I am skeptical, but has anyone noticed that GOA has their usual sky is falling, ZOMG, call your Senators press release?
I am perfectly willing to get outraged, but like people from Missouri, I need to see it first.
-
But...outrage based on speculation is so much more fun. I will admit that I am skeptical, but has anyone noticed that GOA has their usual sky is falling, ZOMG, call your Senators press release?
I am perfectly willing to get outraged, but like people from Missouri, I need to see it first.
Related to this, apparently Missouri isn't just the "Show me" state, but is also the "Show the Feds" state:
http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/highway-patrol-gave-feds-missouri-weapon-permits-data/article_266b644e-a235-11e2-a8e7-0019bb30f31a.html
(THIS is why we don't want governments having records. Because, even if it's illegal to share them, as it was in this case, they'll do it anyway and with impunity.)
-
Related to this, apparently Missouri isn't just the "Show me" state, but is also the "Show the Feds" state:
http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/highway-patrol-gave-feds-missouri-weapon-permits-data/article_266b644e-a235-11e2-a8e7-0019bb30f31a.html
(THIS is why we don't want governments having records. Because, even if it's illegal to share them, as it was in this case, they'll do it anyway and with impunity.)
I found out about that last night, and it makes me wonder how many other states have done the same. I presume the FBI asked all the other states as well. Also, this would seem to violate Missouri law. Does it violate federal law? Not that that would matter in the age of Obama.
-
But...outrage based on speculation is so much more fun. I will admit that I am skeptical, but has anyone noticed that GOA has their usual sky is falling, ZOMG, call your Senators press release?
I am perfectly willing to get outraged, but like people from Missouri, I need to see it first.
Do you honestly believe a new gun control bill will work out in our favor?
-
Do you honestly believe a new gun control bill will work out in our favor?
Not really =(
Although, being able to buy a handgun legally in other states might sorta begin to convince me that I really am a US citizen =|
-
(THIS is why we don't want governments having records. Because, even if it's illegal to share them, as it was in this case, they'll do it anyway and with impunity.)
I had a related conversation the other day. I remarked about something or another I was concerned about the government doing, to which my friend cried "But, they CAN'T do that! It's illegal!"
Heh. What a silly statement. That, even if illegal on paper, it actually matters. The feds aren't being held accountable for their actions; so "illegal" is just a word - it has no meaning if it has no teeth behind it.
-
Crap: Sixteen Republicans split with their party leaders and voted Thursday to end the GOP filibuster of gun control legislation and begin what will be a contentious Senate debate on the issue
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/gun-control-how-senators-voted-89950.html#ixzz2QAfgCJLW
Two Democrats split with their party: Sens. Mark Begich of Alaska and Mark Pryor.
The 16 GOP senators that voted to end debate were:
Lamar Alexander of Tennessee;
Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire;
Richard Burr of North Carolina;
Saxby Chambliss of Georgia;
Tom Coburn of Oklahoma;
Susan Collins of Maine;
Bob Corker of Tennessee;
Jeff Flake of Arizona;
Lindsey Graham of South Carolina;
John Hoeven of North Dakota;
Johnny Isakson of Georgia;
Dean Heller of Nevada;
Mark Kirk of Illinois;
John McCain of Arizona;
Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania;
Roger Wicker of Mississippi.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/gun-control-how-senators-voted-89950.html#ixzz2QAfmtnFj
-
WHAT. THE. F***?!?!
Chambliss, Coburn, and Flake were supposeed to be on our side, those bastards.
-
WHAT. THE. F***?!?!
Chambliss, Coburn, and Flake were supposeed to be on our side, those bastards.
Yeah, my thoughts too. UNLESS the Stupid Party does something intelligent like add a poison-pill amendment, I am absolutely shocked at this betrayal.
(Note, I expect betrayal to be FAR MORE LIKELY than the Stupid Party doing something intelligent.)
-
I imagine they'll add a poison pill amendment, then pass it anyway when the critters don't read the bill and realize what's in it.
-
Crap: Sixteen Republicans split with their party leaders and voted Thursday to end the GOP filibuster of gun control legislation and begin what will be a contentious Senate debate on the issue
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/gun-control-how-senators-voted-89950.html#ixzz2QAfgCJLW
Two Democrats split with their party: Sens. Mark Begich of Alaska and Mark Pryor.
The 16 GOP senators that voted to end debate were:
Lamar Alexander of Tennessee;
Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire;
Richard Burr of North Carolina;
Saxby Chambliss of Georgia;
Tom Coburn of Oklahoma;
Susan Collins of Maine;
Bob Corker of Tennessee;
Jeff Flake of Arizona;
Lindsey Graham of South Carolina;
John Hoeven of North Dakota;
Johnny Isakson of Georgia;
Dean Heller of Nevada;
Mark Kirk of Illinois;
John McCain of Arizona;
Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania;
Roger Wicker of Mississippi.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/gun-control-how-senators-voted-89950.html#ixzz2QAfmtnFj
That painful sensation between your shoulder blades is, indeed, a knife.
Hilarious thing is, the polls have turned around on this one, so that more gun control is the less popular position. I expect a similar betrayal on illegal immigration.
-
This thing still has to make it through the House though, right?
-
This thing still has to make it through the House though, right?
Hasn't made it out of the Senate as I understand it, this was a cloture vote not passing the law. Still horrific.
Anyone know what these backstabbing sonsofbitches are saying to explain their treason?
-
Coburn sold us out.
For instance, I’ll propose a consumer portal that would facilitate access to the NICS database at not just gun shows but for virtually all private sales.
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/rightnow?ContentRecord_id=96ff8706-580f-4e71-b139-17c4b0802f50
-
Hasn't made it out of the Senate as I understand it, this was a cloture vote not passing the law. Still horrific.
Anyone know what these backstabbing sonsofbitches are saying to explain their treason?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-joe-manchin-bridges-gun-control-divide-to-pave-way-for-expanded-laws/2013/04/10/3353ef42-a1fd-11e2-be47-b44febada3a8_story_1.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-joe-manchin-bridges-gun-control-divide-to-pave-way-for-expanded-laws/2013/04/10/3353ef42-a1fd-11e2-be47-b44febada3a8_story_1.html)
-
It gets more interesting as time goes on.
http://dcclothesline.com/2013/04/10/stockman-to-use-blue-slip-to-kill-manchin-toomey-scheme-deliver-u-haul-gift-cards-to-democrats-who-vote-in-favor/
-
Every single one of these cowards needs to get primaried next election cycle. All sixteen.
-
Every single one of these cowards needs to get primaried next election cycle. All sixteen.
You would hope that happens, but I don't think it will.
-
I'm not super optimistic, but there has been a lot more Tea Party inspired runs at incumbents from the right the last couple election cycles.
-
http://www.primarymycongressman.com/why-primarymycongressman-com/
-
Told ya. FTF will be NICS check required.
Ask yourself this now.
1. Lets say this passes.
2. It is now illegal to purchase a firearm without a NICS check in a FTF transfer w/o a FFL.
3. How is that "crime" detected?
4. How is it proved?
5. Does it out the burden of proof in the accused?
Think about it, especially 3,4,5. Now ask yourself how serious this "compromise" is.
Because as I see it, such a law is 100% unenforceable, UNLESS there is a registry, or putting the burden of proof in the accused ("papers {for your gun} please")
-
Told ya. FTF will be NICS check required.
Ask yourself this now.
1. Lets say this passes.
2. It is now illegal to purchase a firearm without a NICS check in a FTF transfer w/o a FFL.
3. How is that "crime" detected?
4. How is it proved?
5. Does it out the burden of proof in the accused?
Think about it, especially 3,4,5. Now ask yourself how serious this "compromise" is.
Because as I see it, such a law is 100% unenforceable, UNLESS there is a registry, or putting the burden of proof in the accused ("papers {for your gun} please")
Its a move on the giant gun debate chess board. "Oh, we just can't enforce this. See we NEED a registry to make it really work!"
-
Its a move on the giant gun debate chess board. "Oh, we just can't enforce this. See we NEED a registry to make it really work!"
That's my point.
-
Yeah, looks like a classic spinelessrepublican cave. One other factor may be at work here. Spinelessrepublicans may well have just grown a brain. By going to a vote certain red state senators will be forced to support gun control while representing a gun supporting state; bad karma this day and time.
-
Told ya. FTF will be NICS check required.
Ask yourself this now.
1. Lets say this passes.
2. It is now illegal to purchase a firearm without a NICS check in a FTF transfer w/o a FFL.
3. How is that "crime" detected?
4. How is it proved?
5. Does it out the burden of proof in the accused?
Watch for entrapment. Joe Gunbuyer from the YourStateCarry.com board meeting your for a face to face, is a fed looking for an arrest, or under the thrall of one such.
It's like here in Ill-i-noise. I won't sell to anyone without the FOID, despite what I might think of it.
-
Watch for entrapment. Joe Gunbuyer from the YourStateCarry.com board meeting your for a face to face, is a fed looking for an arrest, or under the thrall of one such.
It's like here in Ill-i-noise. I won't sell to anyone without the FOID, despite what I might think of it.
Also, if CCW allows to bypass NICS at a FFL, does CCW allow to bypass NICS in a FTF transaction? Records-keeping requirements or burden of proof on buyer/seller in FTF transactions involving CCW permitees?
-
http://www.bob-owens.com/2013/04/republican-senators-drop-gun-bill-filibuster-is-a-trap-being-set/
Interesting comments with one bothersome point. Republicans have plotted to fill the legislation—whatever it turns out to be—with “poison pill amendments” that will either force Harry Reid to pull the bill, or force Democrats to vote against it, OR put enough pro-gun legislation in there to more than offset any background check compromise.
Background checks is the purpose of the current flap. Our Betters must have registration before confiscation begins. Everything else is a smokescreen.
-
Yeah, I'm not buying it. If they said "We don't think this has the votes so let's see it get shot down" or "We know this won't pass but we want to get red state D's a worse NRA grade" or something I'd support it. But they're all "Yay background checks, I <3 gun owner registration!"
-
Once again, the Stupid Party snatches defeat from the jaws of victory. ;/
-
But they're compromising!!! So now the media will finally love them, right?!?!?!
-
Watch for entrapment. Joe Gunbuyer from the YourStateCarry.com board meeting your for a face to face, is a fed looking for an arrest, or under the thrall of one such.
It's like here in Ill-i-noise. I won't sell to anyone without the FOID, despite what I might think of it.
I was thinking a worse case.
I hve firearms I bought in a FTF. No background check was performed.
So how could the powers that be determine that those were legal sales, but a FTF performed "illegally" (after this abortion passes) was not?
-
I was thinking a worse case.
I hve firearms I bought in a FTF. No background check was performed.
So how could the powers that be determine that those were legal sales, but a FTF performed "illegally" (after this abortion passes) was not?
You're not thinking long-term. Wait 25 years -- even with no more laws passed -- and it gets more interesting. If either you or the gun was born after the law goes into effect, and there is no record of a background check, go directly to jail.
-
http://www.pagunblog.com/2013/04/11/we-have-language-on-the-toomey-manchin-amendment/
The amendment is not a universal background check amendment.
-
http://www.pagunblog.com/2013/04/11/we-have-language-on-the-toomey-manchin-amendment/
The amendment is not a universal background check amendment.
No, it's just as close as they can possibly get it.
This will shut down all local/state gun sale forums. But, hey, in exchange we get... oh, absolutely nothing. How nice.
That's right, because "compromise" to the Republicans means they give up more of our rights, just less than the Democrats wanted... until next time where they give up "just a little more" and the next time and the next time...
-
And CCW exemptions from NICS.
And interstate gun sales.
-
And CCW exemptions from NICS.
And interstate gun sales.
Not *expletive deleted*ing worth it. Kill it with fire.
-
Oh I'd prefer to kill it with fire.
But the facts are simple: we have a Democrat President and Senate, after the largest shooting in a decade. The entire country - conservatives, liberals, anti-gunners and the NRA board of directors - believe that the inevitable circle of events is that after every large shooting, the legislature imposes new gun laws. Even the people who oppose this regard it as inevitable - turning it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. That, despite these facts, we have a bill that does not achieve the primary goals of the gun control movement - universal background checks and an AWB -- and that even enhances gun rights in some respects - is nothing short of amazing, especially as this bill will likely suffer further 'compromise' before it passes.
-
Only good thing in yesterday's vote is that we now know who the 68 traitors in the Senate are.....
....and can act accordingly....
-
Oh I'd prefer to kill it with fire.
But the facts are simple: we have a Democrat President and Senate, after the largest shooting in a decade. The entire country - conservatives, liberals, anti-gunners and the NRA board of directors - believe that the inevitable circle of events is that after every large shooting, the legislature imposes new gun laws. Even the people who oppose this regard it as inevitable - turning it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. That, despite these facts, we have a bill that does not achieve the primary goals of the gun control movement - universal background checks and an AWB -- and that even enhances gun rights in some respects - is nothing short of amazing, especially as this bill will likely suffer further 'compromise' before it passes.
I don't think rolling over and declaring victory is the best option right now.
-
Who said anything about rolling over?
-
No, it's just as close as they can possibly get it.
This will shut down all local/state gun sale forums. But, hey, in exchange we get... oh, absolutely nothing. How nice.
That's right, because "compromise" to the Republicans means they give up more of our rights, just less than the Democrats wanted... until next time where they give up "just a little more" and the next time and the next time...
Its -really- close.
See this analysis:
http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2013/04/text-to-manchin-toomey-amendment-is-now.html
The definition of Internet could easily mean THIS board is included, as is FB, an email, etc.
More importantly, it includes the RECIPIENT posting that they intend to acquire.
So if I call fitz, and say I'm selling my AR, and he posts on FB w/o my knowledge that he intends to buy it, I can be prosecuted.
Also, HIPAA doesn't apply to mental health for NICS.
The commission being created is going to be dominated by anti's. Reid gets to pick 6, boehner, 6. But no more than 6 may be from any one party. Meaning, Reid can pick 5 traitor RINO's and thus force boehner to pick at least 5 dems. Oh, and the chairman is picked by Reid.
This amendment sucks.
-
Oh I'd prefer to kill it with fire.
But the facts are simple: we have a Democrat President and Senate, after the largest shooting in a decade. The entire country - conservatives, liberals, anti-gunners and the NRA board of directors - believe that the inevitable circle of events is that after every large shooting, the legislature imposes new gun laws. Even the people who oppose this regard it as inevitable - turning it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. That, despite these facts, we have a bill that does not achieve the primary goals of the gun control movement - universal background checks and an AWB -- and that even enhances gun rights in some respects - is nothing short of amazing, especially as this bill will likely suffer further 'compromise' before it passes.
It is amazing, and all the more reason for this to die. To come through this with no significant federal gun legislation would really let the bad guys know that the dream is dead. Then, we pillage their cities and salt their fields, just to rub it in.
-
Not *expletive deleted* worth it. Kill it with fire.
Indeed.
-
Frankly I worry about "backpage.com" the most.
I love that place. Craigslist without the San Francisco kink and anti-gun sentiment.
It's my first-tier gun store nowadays.
-
Frankly I worry about "backpage.com" the most.
I love that place. Craigslist without the San Francisco kink and anti-gun sentiment.
It's my first-tier gun store nowadays.
Sweet.
One thing though...if you are an adult, interested in jobs, the "adult jobs" linky is a bit more specific than that. Besides, looking at the ad titles, I doubt I would qualify for any of those jobs.
-
I wish more folks in WA used backpage (for guns anyway, plenty of pimps selling underage girls on it) but we have a pretty healthy market between armslist and seattleguns.net.
-
One more thing, the CCW exemption for background checks is only IF the CCW is the equivalent, so that means the following states are no bueno:
Virginia
Georgia
Florida
And others!
See list here:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/brady-law/permit-chart.html
Note, the list is as of August 2011, so there are changes, WI in particular, don't know about IL.
-
One more thing, the CCW exemption for background checks is only IF the CCW is the equivalent, so that means the following states are no bueno:
Virginia
Georgia
Florida
And others!
See list here:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/brady-law/permit-chart.html
Note, the list is as of August 2011, so there are changes, WI in particular, don't know about IL.
I thought the bill was supposed to make all CCW permits an exemption to NICS.
-
I thought the bill was supposed to make all CCW permits an exemption to NICS.
Unless we're gonna just get into the sticky mess of the true meaning of "full faith and credit" of State certifications and the interstate acknowledgement of them... I don't want FedGuv touching anything involving CCW permits. FedGuv doesn't even need to know if it's illegal to J-walk on a county road, let alone get into CCW standardization or whatever.
This will all come out worse in the end.
We're coming up on DHS pulling the equivalent of a 1774 Provincial Powder Alarm against the colonies, and we don't have any cannon this time around. They're gonna starve us out of musket and shot before this thing gets going.
-
I thought the bill was supposed to make all CCW permits an exemption to NICS.
It's unclear. The license must be approved, so its unknown.
-
Unless we're gonna just get into the sticky mess of the true meaning of "full faith and credit" of State certifications and the interstate acknowledgement of them... I don't want FedGuv touching anything involving CCW permits. FedGuv doesn't even need to know if it's illegal to J-walk on a county road, let alone get into CCW standardization or whatever.
This will all come out worse in the end.
We're coming up on DHS pulling the equivalent of a 1774 Provincial Powder Alarm against the colonies, and we don't have any cannon this time around. They're gonna starve us out of musket and shot before this thing gets going.
I wasn't coming out in support of the bill. I was just trying to figure out what birdman was saying.
-
One additional thing, this ammendment wouldn't change the lost/stolen reporting requirement:
(Reported here: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=219649 )
SEC. 123. LOST AND STOLEN REPORTING.
(a) In General- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end--
'(aa) It shall be unlawful for any person who lawfully possesses or owns a firearm that has been shipped or transported in, or has been possessed in or affecting, interstate or foreign commerce, to fail to report the theft or loss of the firearm, within 24 hours after the person discovers the theft or loss, to the Attorney General and to the appropriate local authorities.'.
(b) Penalty- Section 924(a)(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking subparagraph (B) and inserting the following:
'(B) knowingly violates subsection (a)(4), (f), (k), (q), or (aa) of section 922;'.
(emphasis mine)
So, you have to notify the ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES that your gun was lost or stolen within 24 hours of the -actual- theft? Oh, and the penalty is "not more than 5 years"
This bill needs to die a fast and horrible death.
Think about it this way. Lets say this passes, and in the future they do a registration...the "my guns were/lost stolen a while ago" means go directly to jail.
Nothing like criminalizing the victim of a crime.
-
I agree that this bill should die a fast death. Everything that seems harmless on the surface like requiring reporting a stolen gun within 24 hours has a double edge to them. I fully expect registration or a registry implementation to be pushed very hard down the road and all the old laws will remain in effect. The registry requirement could very easily be interpreted as being required to fulfill the requirements of the UN Small Arms Treaty that was recently signed onto by the USA. Of course, it has to get Senate confirmation, but it is the law right now. One can argue that a registry currently conflicts with our Constitution, but laws get passed and it takes years for the dust of constitutionality to settle and the determination is never certain which is why the case goes to the Supreme Court in the first place.
-
I agree that this bill should die a fast death. Everything that seems harmless on the surface like requiring reporting a stolen gun within 24 hours has a double edge to them. I fully expect registration or a registry implementation to be pushed very hard down the road and all the old laws will remain in effect. The registry requirement could very easily be interpreted as being required to fulfill the requirements of the UN Small Arms Treaty that was recently signed onto by the USA. Of course, it has to get Senate confirmation, but it is the law right now. One can argue that a registry currently conflicts with our Constitution, but laws get passed and it takes years for the dust of constitutionality to settle and the determination is never certain which is why the case goes to the Supreme Court in the first place.
A treaty isn't a law (doesnt have power inside the US, doesnt have to be abided by by the US) until its ratified by the senate.
-
What if you just can't remember where you buried your guns ???
-
So SAF and CCRKBA favor this bill?
-
So SAF and CCRKBA favor this bill?
Yeah, WTF! Why do I give them money?
-
So SAF and CCRKBA favor this bill?
I saw that story. Couldn't believe it wasn't The Onion.
-
I saw that story. Couldn't believe it wasn't The Onion.
I've been reading that there is some kind of interstate reciprocity language in it. Could that be why they are giving it a thumbs up? I would not trust any reciprocity language in the thing not to end up screwing us somehow.
-
There are a lot of good things in it.
-
There are a lot of good things in it.
Like what? I have yet to see any, other than the fact interstate dealers can sell in person.
Every other "positive" has way too many catches.
Even tacit approval of this LETS THEM WIN.
WE DON'T NEED ANY MORE GUN LAWS!
For Christ sake people, its incrementalism at its finest, and we are squabbling over the crumbs.
It won't stop until we all take a stand and say NO MORE.
-
Also, the T-M ammendment is just an amendment! The full bill is chock full of other nastiness that this wouldn't fix, INCLUDING the theft reporting crap I mentioned above, and god knows what other garbage.
Remember, we still haven't analyzed the whole thing.
-
Just finished sending emails to my senators Ron Johnson (he voted against cloture, he should be solid) and Tammy Baldwin (p*** in the wind, but it's worth a shot). I also decided to pre-empt what ever is going to be introduced in the House and emailed my representative, Jim Sensenbrenner, too.
-
Like what?
Here is a list I have seen. I'm not saying it's accurate.
2. Prohibits Government from creating a registry or database of gun owners.
3. Makes it a crime (with actual penalties) for anyone in government to make or keep a database of gun owners.
4. Has financial incentives/penalties for states/tribes to get the mental health adjudication records into the NICS system
5. Adds relief from disabilities (felons rights can actually be restored at the federal level)
6. Helps repair the mess that the VA has done to the Vets on gun rights. Just because the vet turned over fiduciary responsibility to someone does not mean they should lose their rights to own a gun. Let's give then a chance to be heard in court first.
7. Makes it legal to buy a handgun in another state, makes it legal for an FFL to sell across state lines at gun shows, etc. (FFL and NICS still required for all interstate purchases)
8. Tightens the "Hold" times on a NICS check before the transaction is allowed to proceed to eventually 24 hours.
9. Allows a holder of a gun permit issued in the last 5 years to bypass the NICS check where a FFL is used.
10. Adds civil immunity to anyone who sells a gun using a NICS check.
11. Adds that only relevant records may be seized during a NICS check violation investigation.
12. Allows FFLs to make NICS checks on prospective employees if they choose.
13. Makes a NICS check violation a felony w/up to 5 years in jail.
14. Clarifies that FOPA travel includes stopping for fuel, sleep, food, repairs, etc.
15. Add the term "safety device" to the ways a gun can be FOPA transported. This means a locked case is not required if there is a trigger lock?. Ammunition needs to be locked up.
16. Prohibits LEO from detaining or arresting for FOPA travel unless they have proof that transport was in violation of FOPA.
17. Allows Service personnel and spouse to buy guns where they are stationed.
18. Prohibits the FEDS from charging for a NICS check.
19. No records are to be kept by the FEDS or the individuals.
20. Sales of your guns are exempted from the definition of a gun show even if you have more than 75 guns, if you are at your private residence when you make the sale.
21. Nothing prevents a private transfer to someone where there has been no written advertisement by the seller or the buyer.
That said, I reiterate that I want it to die. I would say, let it pass, so the Dems get slaughtered in the next election cycle; but the 2012 election makes me doubt that we are on that side of the looking-glass anymore. Besides, we couldn't trust the GOP to repeal the ugly parts if they got the chance.
-
Prohibits Government from creating a registry or database of gun owners.
I thought that it already was ???
So is this like, we really mean it this time illegal ? ;/
-
Even Saturday Night Live knows that gun control is a loser.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/04/foghorn/snls-take-on-the-background-check-proposal/
-
That said, I reiterate that I want it to die. I would say, let it pass, so the Dems get slaughtered in the next election cycle; but the 2012 election makes me doubt that we are on that side of the looking-glass anymore. Besides, we couldn't trust the GOP to repeal the ugly parts if they got the chance.
This!
-
More badness revealed:
http://www.volokh.com/2013/04/15/the-pro-gun-provisions-of-manchin-toomey-are-actually-a-bonanza-of-gun-control/
Specifically:
SEC. 128. INTERSTATE TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS OR AMMUNITION.
(a) In General.-Section 926A of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:
“926A. Interstate transportation of firearms or ammunition
“(a) Definition.-In this section, the term ‘transport’-
“(1) includes staying in temporary lodging overnight, stopping for food, fuel, vehicle maintenance, an emergency, medical treatment, and any other activity incidental to the transport; and
“(2) does not include transportation-
“(A) with the intent to commit a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year that involves a firearm; or
“(B) with knowledge, or reasonable cause to believe, that a crime described in subparagraph (A) is to be committed in the course of, or arising from, the transportation.
In other words, it eviscerates a bunch of FOPA, mainly by 2.B.
Example, since an unregistered gun (loaded or not) is illegal in NY, 2.B. applies, since a crime is arising from the transportation.
But hey, it does so many good things right? Like buying interstate? (Maybe?)
So basically, we need LESS background checks for something that we do rarely (interstate but face to face...still cant ship btw) and MORE for what we do more regularly? (Intrastate face to face)
And the rest of the bill, which isn't modified by the amendment, like the theft provision, is still absolute garbage.
This blows. Call you senators and congressmen.
-
"In the beginning, Hitler didn't look like, or talk like a monster at all. He talked like an American politician."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvLdRz5pF7s
-
So they are trying to sweeten the bill by addressing some of the irritating gun laws that harass legitimate gun owners. Common tactic used by the left. It merely disguises the real purpose of the legislation which is gun registration. Everything else is eyewash. The left asks us to take 2 steps forward toward their view of gun rights. We negotiate it down to one step their direction. Net gain is one step in their direction. Later on they will ask for another but different 2 steps forward and we negotiate it down to one step. How 'bout this? We give'm nuthin'. How 'bout we take two steps our direction and demand that they agree to one step our direction. A good place to pick the issues we could use is the list of sweetener in the Toomey bill.
-
They keep using that word (compromise), I don't think it means what they want us to think it means.
-
How 'bout we take two steps our direction and demand that they agree to one step our direction.
Oh, but you won't get anywhere with that absolute 2A thinking.
;) =D
-
MSM is already wailing that this might be a dead issue in the Senate.
-
MSM is already wailing that this might be a dead issue in the Senate.
I hope so, because this is why it needs to die a horrible death in the Senate: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/17/boehner-pressed-on-holding-votes-with-no-house-majority-as-guns-immigration/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/17/boehner-pressed-on-holding-votes-with-no-house-majority-as-guns-immigration/)
TL;DR Summary: House Speaker John Boehner is being pressed by the conservative wing of the Republican Party not to allow a vote on major pieces of legislation -- from gun control to immigration -- without majority Republican support, after recent signals that he could be open to building a coalition with Democrats.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/17/boehner-pressed-on-holding-votes-with-no-house-majority-as-guns-immigration/#ixzz2Qko54Tgc
-
House Speaker Neville Boehner ???
:facepalm:
-
Fox is reporting that the bill was voted down in Senate 54-46.
-
Yahoo, as well. It is dead. Now maybe prices will begin to drop.
-
More details from CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/17/politics/senate-guns-vote/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
Due to procedural steps by Republican opponents, the amendment required 60 votes to pass in the 100-member chamber, meaning Democrats and their Independent allies who hold 55 seats needed support from some GOP senators to push them through.
The final vote was 54 in favor to 46 opposed with two Republicans joining most Democrats in supporting the compromise.
-
Bam!
-
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_113_1.htm
-
They've got something else waiting to slip in. Keep wary.
-
They've got something else waiting to slip in. Keep wary.
Always be checking what politicians are doing.
-
Yahoo, as well. It is dead. Now maybe prices will begin to drop.
This is just the T-M and grassley amendments people, NOT the bill, nor the rest of the amendments, but given this, I can't see the rest proceeding.
-
It's interesting to see who voted for it and who voted again' it. Quite an odd mix, both ways.
-
Golleeeeee! Baucus actually voted against it :O
-
Update, looks like everything is going down in flames.
Unfortunately, this includes the grassley and burr amendments.
However, as those are only amendments, and would add "positives" to the bigger and really bad bill, that's okay for now, they can be pursued later. National reciprocity would have been a tough sell, but the burr amendment...damn dems.
-
Update, looks like everything is going down in flames :)
Yup...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/04/foghorn/feinstein-assault-weapons-ban-amendment-fails/
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/04/foghorn/latest-updates-on-todays-senate-gun-control-amendments/
Lautenberg / Blumenthal Amendment [SPEAKING]
Bans “high capacity” magazines
Burr Amendment FAILS, 56/44
Requires judicial decision for Veterans Affairs to place someone on the NICS denial list.
Feinstein Assault Weapons Ban Amendment FAILS, 40/60
LOL “large velocity guns,” another wonderful example of Senator Feinstein playing Bingo with firearms-related vocabulary and rolling with whatever she can think up no matter if it actually makes sense. Also, where can I get my hands on these 100+ round clips she’s talking about? That’s got to be one large piece of aluminum . . .
Cornyn National Concealed Carry Reciprocity Amendment FAILS 57/43
By the way, I LOVE how Chuck Schumer’s argument about national reciprocity was that states should be able to set their own policies about guns, that what works in one state might not work in others. Which begs the question: why then is he pushing so hard to expand New York’s values about gun control on all of the other states?
Leahy/Collins Amendment FAILS 58/42 – More info on proposed provisions here.
Grassley/Cruz Amendment FAILS 52/48 – More info on proposed provisions here.
-
Update, looks like everything is going down in flames.
Unfortunately, this includes the grassley and burr amendments.
However, as those are only amendments, and would add "positives" to the bigger and really bad bill, that's okay for now, they can be pursued later. National reciprocity would have been a tough sell, but the burr amendment...damn dems.
The damn Republicans can get off their butts and try to protect veterans separately ;/
Add it to a bill to save baby robins or something....
-
The damn Republicans can get off their butts and try to protect veterans separately ;/
Add it to a bill to save baby robins or something....
Yup! Or...perhaps deptartment of education appropriations bill? :)
-
It's a shame that the homosexual lobby hasn't caught on to how case law for national reciprocity, visa vi the full faith and credit clause, would effect gay marriages or civil unions....
-
I'm shocked!!! Shocked I tell you, to discover that Mark Kirk (R-Ill north shore liberal) voted with the D's on this crap.
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
-
Is anyone watching piers Morgan cry about it?
-
Btw we should all report hmmm to the FBI... He said "do I have to get an ar15 and shoot up a school to make people see?"
-
Is anyone watching piers Morgan cry about it?
Fortunately I don't have cable. If somebody finds a link please post.
-
Want to be sad for America?
Read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/us/politics/senate-obama-gun-control.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
And read the comments. Its amazing how much people want to destroy our freedoms.
My personal favorite was this one, purely on the basis of amazing stupidity
gunstePortola Valley CA
Maybe there is a way around the Senate GOP and the NRA. Take an alternative approach to assault gun control:
The second amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Let us ask the Courts or/and Congress to implement a very narrow reading of this and then require that all persons who own an assault or military type gun/weapon on your list, be members of a well regulated militia.
That would provide some supervision to individuals who need supervision and control. If militias are under state or federal control, the National Guard can be the supervisor or rules can be written. People who do not wish to be in a militia can get rid of their assault weapons.
-
I'll bet that person from Portola Valley is a professor at Stanford. :angel:
-
It really is amazing how people who profess "anti-violence" are so predisposed to make use of Government violence and force to coerce others to live a way they do not want to.
-
Want to be sad for America?
Read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/us/politics/senate-obama-gun-control.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
And read the comments. Its amazing how much people want to destroy our freedoms.
My personal favorite was this one, purely on the basis of amazing stupidity
The Militia Act of 1792 which provided, in part:
So I can go buy an M16? That would be the modern equivalent of "a good firelock or musket." Also I think they would have a problem with "able-bodied" (violates the ADA), "white" (various Civil Rights Acts along with the 14th Amendment), male (EEO no-no right there), citizen (What about "undocumented workers"?), "who is or shall be of age of eighteen years" and "under the age of forty-five years" (Age Discrimination). So it sounds to me like everyone is in the militia. Therefore the 2A applies to everyone. Machine Guns for EVERYBODY !!!!
-
The Militia Act of 1792 which provided, in part:
So I can go buy an M16? That would be the modern equivalent of "a good firelock or musket." Also I think they would have a problem with "able-bodied" (violates the ADA), "white" (various Civil Rights Acts along with the 14th Amendment), male (EEO no-no right there), citizen (What about "undocumented workers"?), "who is or shall be of age of eighteen years" and "under the age of forty-five years" (Age Discrimination). So it sounds to me like everyone is in the militia. Therefore the 2A applies to everyone. Machine Guns for EVERYBODY !!!!
Well, if you've read Miller, yeah, pretty much.
Funny how little play that actually gets, though.
-
I've been waiting for someone to actually bring Miller up as a counter to NFA