Author Topic: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For  (Read 12368 times)

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2008, 05:53:44 AM »
Well, if all it takes is war to create decades of prosperity, things should be booming here shortly.  Like they were after Nixon (mercifully) ended Vietnam.  laugh

K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2008, 06:06:37 AM »
Ludicrous statement on your part.

World War II destroyed huge swaths of the industrialized world.

Of the world's major industrial powers before the war (England, Japan, Germany, Russia, and the United States) only the United States was untouched.

The Marshall Plan and the rebuilding of non-Communist areas of Europe and Asia gave US industry and agriculture a sustained period of production that lasted nearly 20 years. In effect, the US war production economy didn't end in 1945. The war economy transitioned from war winning to war rebuilding.

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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2008, 09:02:37 AM »
OK, I'll stipulate (for the sake of argument) that our post WWII prosperity resulted from rebuilding Europe and Japan.  It's enough that we agree there was, in fact, a huge expansion of the middle class in the 1950's and 60's. 

Now then, in the 1970's, we were the worlds largest creditor nation, because we manufactured and exported anything and everything the world needed.  Today, we are the world's largest debtor nation; we manufacture damn near nothing, but import everything we want and need.  Whyizzat, Mike?

Now, keep in mind that in the 28 years since 1980 (the beginning of decline), a Republican occupied the Whitehouse for 20 of those years.  In 1950-1980, 30 years, one man working could earn enough to raise a family, buy a house, and save some money to boot.  Today, it takes two people with full time jobs just to keep a roof over the heads of the family.  Whyizzat?  And don't tell me it's the 'excessive taxation' of the liberal socialist leftist Marxists or somesuch.  In 1950-1980, the top tax rates were in the 90% range, and today, they're nowhere near that.   So where did the 'benefit' of 'tax cuts' go?    They went into the pockets of the wealthy, who took their production facilities overseas to third world countries, that's where.

So much for 'trickle down' economics.

Manedwolf

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2008, 09:05:30 AM »
Now then, in the 1970's, we were the worlds largest creditor nation, because we manufactured and exported anything and everything the world needed.  Today, we are the world's largest debtor nation; we manufacture damn near nothing, but import everything we want and need.  Whyizzat, Mike?

Say what? You mean like Japanese radios, electronics, toys, etc? Sony, Sanyo, Panasonic, major brands of the 1970's? Where did those come from, do you think?

Oh, right. Reagan was in the 80's, and you're trying to find some flailing excuse to blame Reagan, in your gibbering hatred of all things Republican. Silly me.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2008, 09:13:59 AM »
Quote
Say what? You mean like Japanese radios, electronics, toys, etc?

Or, substandard Chinese toys, food and drugs.  Malaysian, Indian, or Pakistani clothing.  All sorts of stuff made by child and slave labor in third world sweatshops.

And yes, Manedwolf, you are silly.  You've drunk the Koolaid that all things Republican are good,  and anything else is to be feared.   It's a reactionary paranoia that you will probably live to deeply regret.  But it's all you know.

Manedwolf

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2008, 09:18:21 AM »
Okay, now you're not making sense at all. You claimed that we made or exported everything we needed in the 1970's. I pointed out that that was incorrect, due to the vast amount of Japanese goods, especially electronics, imported during that decade due to lower cost.

And you mention Chinese stuff, which is now, or agree with me in refuting your earlier point, or...I don't know what you're doing.

You're just not making sense.

K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2008, 09:18:28 AM »
"because we manufactured and exported anything and everything the world needed.  Today, we are the world's largest debtor nation; we manufacture damn near nothing, but import everything we want and need.  Whyizzat, Mike?"

Have you been paying attention to anything that's going on this this thread? Or, for that matter, anything that went on in the last 40 years?

The move away from American made products started WELL before the 1970s.

Japanese and German industry were making serious inroads to American overseas markets as early as the late 1950s. The Japanese and Germans attacked America's overseas markets first and then went after the domestic markets.

We rebuilt their factories and their infrastructures. Theirs were new, ours were old, and were getting older, less profitable, and less productive by the minute. The cost of American labor and benefits as compared to Japan and Germany were also weighing very heavily.

American manufacturers also proved themselves to be the world masters of inagility, inability to forcast changing trends, and inability to respond even when trends were clear and ongoing.

Oh, and there's an odd connundrum about being the world's largest debtor nation.

We're also the worlds largest exporter nation ($1.75 trillon in goods and services last year), and have, by a factor of three, the world's largest GDP.

And that doesn't even take into account the amount of foreign investment into the US economy ($1.2 trillion). Gee, if our national economy is in such horrid, horrid, shape, it makes one wonder why anyone would want to invest in the US, doesn't it?

Could it be because the US economy is still, by a long shot, the largest generator of wealth in the world?

Nah.

You and others who screech about us being the world's biggest debtor nation have chosen to focus solely on one negative aspect as if that is the whole picture, and as if it defines the totality of the situation.

Nothing could be more short sighted, and nothing could be farther from the truth.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2008, 09:33:19 AM »
GM and Ford still dominated the American market in the 1970's.  The 'inroads' made by the Japanese and Germans, (who, granted, had superior manufacturing facilities and produced a superior product thanks to the Marshall Plan), should have been countered with import tariffs.  Instead, the Reagan administration allowed U.S. corporations to outsource labor to third world countries without penalty.  We were stuck with manufacturing facilities dating back to the Industrial Revolution.  .gov helped Europe and the corporations, and screwed the American middle class.  Reagan was a patsy.  A likeable, well meaning patsy who really didn't understand global economics.


Manedwolf

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2008, 09:37:48 AM »
Regan didn't ALLOW anything, he just didn't stand in the way of competition in the international marketplace with onerous restrictions that would have decimated us in a competitive sense.

And tariffs? You LIKE tarriffs?

I really can't figure you out. You're like a hardcore leftist who's in denial and self-loathing about that.


The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2008, 09:45:26 AM »
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And that doesn't even take into account the amount of foreign investment into the US economy ($1.2 trillion). Gee, if our national economy is in such horrid, horrid, shape, it makes one wonder why anyone would want to invest in the US, doesn't it?

That, by far, is the most pitiful, hilarious, and sad statement you've made yet, Mike.  The majority of that 'investment' consists of the purchase of our debt by China and Arab OPEC countries.  That is debt incurred by the 'borrow and spend' policies of Republican dominated governments.  Real investment in U.S. companies is declining along with the value of the dollar.

Some of you really need to wake up and smell the coffee.  Republican policies over the last 30 years have this country circling the drain.

K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2008, 09:48:11 AM »
"GM and Ford still dominated the American market in the 1970's."

Uhm... Did I say they didn't?

They dominated the American market for two reasons:

1. Inertia

2. The Japanese and Germans, as I said, attacked overseas markets FIRST.


"should have been countered with import tariffs."

Wow.

OK, I think that says a lot right there.

It says you believe that if American business is inefficient, unwilling to change, and unwilling to modernize, Government should immediately step in to protect that inefficiency, unwillingness to change, and unwillingness to modernize, and pass the screwing along to the American public.

That's the stupidest, most perverse thing I've ever heard.

You really think that's a way for American business and the American economy to get ahead? By continuing to support outdated modes of production and hiding behind protectionist tariffs?

Until now, I never quite understood the depths of your irrationality.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2008, 09:48:37 AM »
Real investment in U.S. companies is declining along with the value of the dollar.
Reality, I'd like you to meet Riley.  Riley, meet reality.  I can see you two have never met before, so I'll give you a few moments to get acquainted with each other.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2008, 09:49:42 AM »
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Regan didn't ALLOW anything, he just didn't stand in the way of competition in the international marketplace with onerous restrictions that would have decimated us in a competitive sense.

No, we could have competed with the 'international marketplace' had .gov promoted, subsidized, and rewarded domestic production.  Instead, they turned a blind eye to corporate America cutting middleclass American workers off at the legs.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2008, 10:00:19 AM »
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It says you believe that if American business is inefficient, unwilling to change, and unwilling to modernize, Government should immediately step in to protect that inefficiency, unwillingness to change, and unwillingness to modernize, and pass the screwing along to the American public.

That's the stupidest, most perverse thing I've ever heard.

You really think that's a way for American business and the American economy to get ahead? By continuing to support outdated modes of production and hiding behind protectionist tariffs?

Until now, I never quite understood the depths of your irrationality.

You've already acknowledged that American business was out-competed by the modernization of Europe and Japan via the Marshall Plan.  Of course our Industrial Revolution era manufacturing facilities couldn't keep up brand new, state of the art factories in Japan and Germany. Now you're criticizing them for not being able to keep up.   Without government subsidy of American business, how do you expect them to remain competitive?  The only other option is import tariffs, but your narrow ideology only understands 'taxes bad'. 

I pretty much give up with you people.  Keep voting freaking Republican.  You deserve what you get.


K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2008, 10:11:26 AM »
"The majority of that 'investment' consists of the purchase of our debt by China and Arab OPEC countries."

I see you bought into the NY Times and Washington Post's descriptions and have no clue what is actually at work.

First off, which is worse...

Foreign nations investing in the United States (yes, investing) by purchasing debt objects, providing even more free capital or

Foreign nations investing in other nations, reducing the amount of free capital available for use in the United States?

Do you have any conceptual clue how much foreign investment was involved in the United States between 1870 and the outset of World War II?

Any clue?

Today's foreign investment in the United States is a pitiful shadow of the amount of foreign money that was pouring into the United States in that period.

The Union Pacific NY Central, Pennsylvania Railroad, and virtually every other large railroad system that came into existence? Financed primarily with foreign investment.

Bethlement Steel? Primarily financed through foreign investment.

Standard Oil? Foreign investment.

The list goes on and on.

France, Britain, Russia, and Germany had the equivalent of trillions of dollars of money invested in US industry and us debt obligations.

Foreign nations invest in the United States, yes, even through the purchase of things like debt objects, because they recognize the safety, security, durability and profitability of those investments.

You speak as if that kind of realization is a bad thing.

That's what's really frightening about this.

You apparently gloam onto a couple of factiods the talking heads are spinning as the proof that the sky is falling and somehow process that into the entirety. You've abandoned any desire (or apparently any ability) to think or examine critically the reality of the situation.

You want to REALLY hurt American business?

Start slapping protectionist tariffs on everything that moves or is made. Then tell all foreign investors that we don't want, or need, their money anymore.

The recession/depression that would come slamming down on America would be monumental.

So tell us, just what Democratic policies have promoted the growth of American business over the last 30 years?

Maybe NAFTA qualifies...

After all, Bill Clinton just loved NAFTA, even though a Republic proposed it, right?

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K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2008, 10:13:42 AM »
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Regan didn't ALLOW anything, he just didn't stand in the way of competition in the international marketplace with onerous restrictions that would have decimated us in a competitive sense.

No, we could have competed with the 'international marketplace' had .gov promoted, subsidized, and rewarded domestic production.  Instead, they turned a blind eye to corporate America cutting middleclass American workers off at the legs.



Oh, you mean like the 1987 100% tariff that Reagan signed into law against Japanese electronics goods?

Let's see... how much good did that do American business?

"reward American business..."

Funny, just the other week I seem to recall you screaming bloody murder about tax breaks given to American companies...
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Glock Glockler

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2008, 10:18:21 AM »
Paddy,

After WWII when the production facilities of industrialized nations were devestated we had the opportunity to rebuild and modernize, instead we sat on our hands.  Whether then or now, the solution is for businesses to up their game, not protect them for being inept.

K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2008, 10:19:17 AM »
"You've already acknowledged that American business was out-competed by the modernization of Europe and Japan via the Marshall Plan."

That's right.

Because American industry didn't bother to modernize.

Whose fault is that?

The governments?

Or the people running the businesses?

American business didn't keep up because they CHOSE not to keep up.

If you let your house rot around your ears, whose fault is that? Yours, as proprietor of the residence? Or the government's, because they're the big, kind, benevolent overseer whose only job is to protect you from yourself?



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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2008, 10:19:32 AM »
Mike, are you really that shortsighted?  Any foreign investment in our railroads and steel mills equates to domestic investment in our infrastructure.  The debt we're currently selling is largely financing the Iraq occupation, which does nothing, provides no benefit for the average American.  Unless of course you're on the receiving end of the transfer of public money to private hands.  Like someone who is employed in the defense industry.  You wouldn't know anyone like that, wouldja, Mike?  rolleyes

K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2008, 10:24:59 AM »
Paddy,

After WWII when the production facilities of industrialized nations were devestated we had the opportunity to rebuild and modernize, instead we sat on our hands.  Whether then or now, the solution is for businesses to up their game, not protect them for being inept.


Congratulations, Glock, you hit the nail on the head.

American business chose to sign their own death warrants by, in many cases, totally abandoning any efforts to modernize at all.

Hey, what was state of the art in 1900 will be state of the art forever, right?

And all of this is somehow Ronald Reagan's fault.

I don't think I've ever come across someone who is so pedantically focused on taking isolated bits of information and conflating them in such a manner that all rationality and reason go out the window in an effort to promote and fuel a personal hatred.

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K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2008, 10:27:42 AM »
You think debt investment was any different in 1900 than it is now?

Massive amounts of foreign debt investment financed America's expansion into the West and into being a world player in places like the Philippines, Asia, and South America.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2008, 10:28:53 AM »
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Funny, just the other week I seem to recall you screaming bloody murder about tax breaks given to American companies...

Now finish the sentence..'American companies who outsource labor and production to third world countries'.  You don't get it.  You just don't get it.  The American middleclass IS American business.   Or was, until our government sold out to corporate interests in the 1980's.   

Our economy is based, and dependent, on consumerism.  Think about who that benefits.   

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2008, 10:31:37 AM »
You think debt investment was any different in 1900 than it is now?

Massive amounts of foreign debt investment financed America's expansion into the West and into being a world player in places like the Philippines, Asia, and South America.


Again, any such debt was used to develop our domestic infrastructure.  How does the significance of that escape you?

K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2008, 10:35:46 AM »
Oh, I get it Reilly.

I get that you're all over the map.

I get that you think that tariffs can somehow magically protect American business.

I get that you think that foreign investment in the US is bad.

I get than you think that it's all somehow Ronald Reagan's fault.

I get that you think that only the Republicans are responsible for negative impact on business when, in fact, NAFTA was a product of not just the Republicans in congress, but also the Democrats, and was in fact one of Bill Clinton's premier projects as President.

I get it that you think that Government should somehow have stepped into save American business from itself, and it's the Republicans fault that American business chose not to invest in modernization.

I get it that you think that Government should have passed tariffs and forced Americans to accept substandard automobiles.

Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

K Frame

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Re: Obama Is the One Only Naive Liberals Have Been Waiting For
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2008, 10:39:18 AM »
You think debt investment was any different in 1900 than it is now?

Massive amounts of foreign debt investment financed America's expansion into the West and into being a world player in places like the Philippines, Asia, and South America.


Again, any such debt was used to develop our domestic infrastructure.  How does the significance of that escape you?


WRONG!

Read my message again!

How are the Philippines, Asia, and South America "domestic" infrastructure?

How is Cuba domestic?

How is Panama domestic?

How are the Philippines domestic?

The United States sank massive amounts of money, largely financed through sale of debt products, into those areas of the world.

NONE of them are "domestic."

I don't have figures for it, but I suspect that the amount of money put into those areas isn't that much different that what is being spent in Iraq today.

Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.