Author Topic: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare  (Read 12360 times)

lupinus

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2015, 08:42:04 PM »
The law most ABSOLUTLY  was allowed to remain intact.  Did anyone change out those 4 words in question?  No.
I don't think you've been listening.
However,  :P right back.
actually I completely agree with both fistful and the dissenting justices.

This is the second time now they've essentially remade portions of the law to ignore intent and redefine plain English.


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De Selby

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2015, 08:51:52 PM »
Can someone articulate how Obamacare violates the constitution?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2015, 09:02:59 PM »
Can someone articulate how Obamacare violates the constitution?
Obamacare doesn't violate the constitution.  Obamacare is just a bunch of words, and words can mean whatever you want.  The constitution is just words, too, so it means whatever you want, too.

Haven't you been paying attention?

De Selby

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2015, 09:06:33 PM »
Obamacare doesn't violate the constitution.  Obamacare is just a bunch of words, and words can mean whatever you want.  The constitution is just words, too, so it means whatever you want, too.

Haven't you been paying attention?

I've read King v Burwell, and didn't see that line.  It's about construing a federal statute and seems quite reasonable.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Ron

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2015, 09:13:22 PM »
Of course they didn't really mean exchanges set up by the states meant exchanges set up by the states.

We will all just pretend that we didn't hear Gruber (the architect of the law who wasn't really the architect that turned out to have a real big role similar to an architect) actually state that state exchanges meant state exchanges.

And since when is being a stickler for exacting language important in the field of law anyway  :rofl:
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De Selby

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2015, 09:14:23 PM »
Ron, did you actually read the decision?  That's a silly comment to make about it if you did.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Ron

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2015, 09:27:35 PM »
Truth be told I checked out on the subject after the videos of Gruber saying that the wording was meant to force the states into setting up exchanges. We know what the intent of the law was because we heard it from the horses mouth.

I never expected it to be repealed, replaced or be struck down by the court.

Instead of a socialized system or a free market system of health care we have a fascist system of health care. The government and the industry have decided and the people will just have to make do.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2015, 11:21:26 PM »
Can someone articulate how Obamacare violates the constitution?
What part of the Constitution authorizes the U.S. Government to force citizens to purchase healthcare insurance whether they want to, or not?  Please direct me to that passage .... all the while, keeping the tenth amendment in mind.
If you remember the tenth amendment ..............................
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TommyGunn

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2015, 11:24:49 PM »
actually I completely agree with both fistful and the dissenting justices.

This is the second time now they've essentially remade portions of the law to ignore intent and redefine plain English.


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OK.  I've landed in The Twilight Zone.
I agree with the dissenting judges but not fistful.  You can't agree with both unless you find yourself in the same universe in which both the irresistable force and the immoveable object both exist simultaneously.  [tinfoil]
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2015, 12:12:19 AM »
Can someone articulate how Obamacare violates the constitution?

I think we hashed that out in the last Obamacare SCOTUS case. This case was not about the constitutionality of that law, as De Selby well knows. He's only trolling here. King v. Burwell was a question of whether laws must be implemented as written, or whether laws can be implemented in whatever way the Feds belatedly wish they had written said laws. 



OK.  I've landed in The Twilight Zone.
I agree with the dissenting judges but not fistful.  You can't agree with both unless you find yourself in the same universe in which both the irresistable force and the immoveable object both exist simultaneously.  [tinfoil]

fistful agrees with the dissenting justices, who said that the law should remain intact, and Obamacare allowed to fail. Tommygun, a lot of people have said that Obamacare was intentionally designed to fail, to damage American healthcare, so that a "single-payer" system would appear the only solution. I don't know whether that's true, or whether this mode of failure was intentional, but we do know that this was a designed-in weak point of the ACA. We want that weak point preserved, as did the dissenting justices.

But if you don't want to talk about this anymore, I could share my theories on how cornbread caused the civil war of northron aggression between the states.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 12:49:49 AM by fistful »
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De Selby

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2015, 02:30:13 AM »
What part of the Constitution authorizes the U.S. Government to force citizens to purchase healthcare insurance whether they want to, or not?  Please direct me to that passage .... all the while, keeping the tenth amendment in mind.
If you remember the tenth amendment ..............................

The power to tax allows the government to use taxes for policy reasons.

Fistful didn't really read the opinion.  It's about why interpretation needs to consider what congress was attempting to do, rather than for example what a court wants the legislation to do.  If wording is ambiguous, then you consider what congress attempted to do and interpret so as to avoid perverse/frustrating outcomes.

Which of course is the opposite of judicial activism.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2015, 05:36:44 AM »
Can someone articulate how Obamacare violates the constitution?
First we have to decide is it a tax? Or not a tax we have two stories on that
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2015, 05:39:28 AM »
I've read King v Burwell, and didn't see that line.  It's about construing a federal statute and seems quite reasonable.
Is it their job to construe something
Can someone articulate how Obamacare violates the constitution?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MillCreek

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2015, 07:46:38 AM »
In appellate court decisions, it is common for the court to attempt to derive the intent of the legislative body in drafting the law. The court uses this intent in interpreting the law.
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Ron

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2015, 08:18:29 AM »
...and we have on video one of the primary experts involved in the legislative process explaining how if a state doesn't set up an exchange then their citizens cannot receive subsidies. It was a feature, not a bug.

Public pressure was supposed to force the states to set up exchanges.

That was the intent of the clear wording regardless of what the Supreme Court in their Orwellian ruling has decreed.

What the legislators failed to foresee was how many states would refuse to set up exchanges and how little public support Obamacare would have.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelcannon/2014/07/25/obamacare-architect-jonathan-gruber-if-youre-a-state-and-you-dont-set-up-an-exchange-that-means-your-citizens-dont-get-their-tax-credits/
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 08:37:43 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Tallpine

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2015, 10:24:03 AM »
In appellate court decisions, it is common for the court to attempt to derive the intent of the legislative body in drafting the law. The court uses this intent in interpreting the law.

The intent of the legislature was the exact opposite of what the words said, but of course they didn't know what it said because it hadn't been passed yet  =D
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brimic

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2015, 10:43:52 AM »
The power to tax allows the government to use taxes for policy reasons.

Fistful didn't really read the opinion.  It's about why interpretation needs to consider what congress was attempting to do, rather than for example what a court wants the legislation to do.  If wording is ambiguous, then you consider what congress attempted to do and interpret so as to avoid perverse/frustrating outcomes.

Which of course is the opposite of judicial activism.

The most amusing thing is the contortions insipid leftists will perform to get their little slice of socialism to benifit their worthless meaningless lives. Doesn't matter, life will go on, the productive will still produce where they are allowed to, though they will have a million little ticks and leaches sucking their blood. At some point the parasites will kill the host. 
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TommyGunn

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2015, 10:47:38 AM »
The power to tax allows the government to use taxes for policy reasons.

So, tax or fine?   Even Obama used whatever word best fit him at the time.
Either way, this still is a specious way for the government to get around the fact that the Constitution granted no right to the federal government to force people to buy anything.


Fistful didn't really read the opinion.  It's about why interpretation needs to consider what congress was attempting to do, rather than for example what a court wants the legislation to do.  If wording is ambiguous, then you consider what congress attempted to do and interpret so as to avoid perverse/frustrating outcomes.

Which of course is the opposite of judicial activism.

That's the problem; the wording WASN'T ambiguous it was very clear; the STATES need to set up exchanges so the people can be subsidized.  We have plenty from that arrogant whackadoodle Herr Gruber to KNOW just exactly what the government was up to.


As to considering "what congress attempted to do and interpret so as to avoid perverse/frustrating outcomes,"
in the long run IMHO I believe we would be far better off if the court would limit itself to strict application of the written law in question to the Constitution.   Should nasty consequences arise and cause people grief ..... there's a lesson in there; NEXT VOTING DAY, BE MORE CAREFUL FOR WHOM YOU PULL THAT LEVER!  Maybe if the kongresskritters get enough grief from the voters they might listen.  

What do parents do with a child who will not listen?  Consider the following:  A couple's young son likes to play in the front yard -- fine, but he often runs out into a busy street.  The father runs out, grabs his hand and drags him back, and wants to discipline the kid, but the loving mother (being the so called "weaker vessel"), who loves her dear son and wishes he experience no grief, intervenes and prevents it.  This pattern continues until one day the kid runs out and !*WHAM!* a Mack truck turns the kid into a grease stain on the tarmac.  Now the mother is REALLY UPSET.

Okay, not a great analogy perhaps.   But as the mother refused to see the consequences, so are our knngresskritters also not taking any consequences when SCOTUS will twist the -- YES -- plain meaning of the words.
Sometimes "perverse/frustrating outcomes" can be a great educational tool.
When it's used...............
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

TommyGunn

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2015, 10:54:26 AM »
.....fistful agrees with the dissenting justices, who said that the law should remain intact, and Obamacare allowed to fail. Tommygun, a lot of people have said that Obamacare was intentionally designed to fail, to damage American healthcare, so that a "single-payer" system would appear the only solution. I don't know whether that's true, or whether this mode of failure was intentional, but we do know that this was a designed-in weak point of the ACA. We want that weak point preserved, as did the dissenting justices.

But if you don't want to talk about this anymore, I could share my theories on how cornbread caused the civil war of northron aggression between the states.

Yeah ... I am about 95% ready to endorse that theory myself. 
I don't give a  ***** about your theories about cornbread, but I do find it tasty as part of a traditional southern breakfast.
....And there are TWO 'n"s in "TOMMYGUNN."  :mad: .............. ;)
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makattak

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2015, 11:21:38 AM »
Yeah ... I am about 95% ready to endorse that theory myself. 
I don't give a  ***** about your theories about cornbread, but I do find it tasty as part of a traditional southern breakfast.
....And there are TWO 'n"s in "TOMMYGUNN."  :mad: .............. ;)

I only eat cornbread if it's made in the shape of the Confederate flag. With sugar.
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brimic

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2015, 12:12:15 PM »
Quote
NEXT VOTING DAY, BE MORE CAREFUL FOR WHOM YOU PULL THAT LEVER! 

Roberts was appointed by BUSH.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2015, 12:13:26 PM »
Roberts was appointed by BUSH.

Something to remember in the primaries.

TommyGunn

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2015, 01:18:10 PM »
Something to remember in the primaries.
Oh Gawd, is Dubya running for a third term? [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [popcorn]
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KD5NRH

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2015, 01:25:41 PM »
Oh Gawd, is Dubya running for a third term?

No, but don't forget he's got three brothers to carry on the dynasty.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Obamacare now to be called SCOTUScare
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2015, 06:27:51 PM »
Oh Gawd, is Dubya running for a third term? [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [popcorn]


Pretty much.


Given the last two SCOTUS rulings, I'm wondering whether I can vote for a Republican at all - even Rand or Cruz. They will have some work to do, to get my vote in the general.

And no, I'm absolutely not going to vote for the Libertarian Party. This country really needs a viable Not Left Wing party.  :facepalm:
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