Author Topic: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!  (Read 6002 times)

kgbsquirrel

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2012, 02:27:53 PM »
OK, so you want to play the game of "Hypothetical vs. Things as they Really Are."


Wow. Showing historical factual examples where something that was morally and ethically wrong, but legal until adjudicated illegal and unconstitutional (ie. Separate but Equal) as compared to something that is likewise morally and ethically wrong, but hasn't yet reached the adjudication stage, is sheer hypothesis on the level of quackery. You sure showed me.  ;/

RevDisk

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2012, 02:59:00 PM »

Fool and their money are soon parted. Maybe it was wrong for the government to confiscate the coins, maybe not.

But it was extremely poor planning on their part to actually hand them over. If they were exceedingly honest, place in the trust of a lawyer until final determination. If they were pragmatic, removal from the country until final determination.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2012, 03:02:18 PM »
Fool and their money are soon parted. Maybe it was wrong for the government to confiscate the coins, maybe not.

But it was extremely poor planning on their part to actually hand them over. If they were exceedingly honest, place in the trust of a lawyer until final determination. If they were pragmatic, removal from the country until final determination.

its was their lawyers scam idea to turn em in.  it was strategy    failed strategy
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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HankB

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2012, 03:49:09 PM »
its was their lawyers scam idea to turn em in.  it was strategy    failed strategy
It may have made sense on some level to hand over one of the coins for "authentication."

Turning them all in was an act of monumental, colossal, mind-numbing idiocy.

And . . . maybe, just maybe, the coins were actually paid for at face value rather than simply stolen, in the same way that LBJ was rumored to have bought select printings of postage stamps for his private collection. (If this were the case, would records even have been kept?)

NO. The government PAID people face value for the gold that they had at the then standard exchange rate.
Yep - paper for gold. At gunpoint, figuratively if not literally. Perfectly OK, as long as it's .gov doing it.
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Tallpine

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2012, 07:19:01 PM »
its was their lawyers scam idea to turn em in.  it was strategy    failed strategy

I think maybe that I would have offered at an antique auction one of the coins that had been miraculously "found".   ;)

And then a few years later ...   >:D
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2012, 07:22:59 PM »
I think maybe that I would have offered at an antique auction one of the coins that had been miraculously "found".   ;)

And then a few years later ...   >:D
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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K Frame

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2012, 12:27:56 AM »
Wow, you actually believe that removing gold from circulation was ' morally and ethically' wrong?

If I were not so tired right now I think I might fall of my chair laughing.

Where is your ' moral and ethical' compass pointed on the subject of allowing people who have zero sum interest benefit personally from activities that were on their face illegal no matter what the status off gold at the time?

That's right, no matter what those coins were stolen prior to their being monetized.

It would be no different from someone taking a bunch of newly printed bills from the cutting room at the mint.

Just what is it about gold that gets people so hot and bothered?

It is really no different than paper money.

It only has value because a group of people agree it has some value. It's a consumer commodity.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2012, 12:49:51 AM »
If the gold is "removed from circulation" under threat of force then it *expletive deleted* well is immoral and unethical. You keep on about how the coins were stolen from the government but don't seem to give a good god damn for the property rights of the common citizen. I can honestly say I had no idea you were such a Statist.


Wow, you actually believe that removing gold from circulation was ' morally and ethically' wrong?

If I were not so tired right now I think I might fall of my chair laughing.

Where is your ' moral and ethical' compass pointed on the subject of allowing people who have zero sum interest benefit personally from activities that were on their face illegal no matter what the status off gold at the time?

That's right, no matter what those coins were stolen prior to their being monetized.

It would be no different from someone taking a bunch of newly printed bills from the cutting room at the mint.

Just what is it about gold that gets people so hot and bothered?

It is really no different than paper money.

It only has value because a group of people agree it has some value. It's a consumer commodity.

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2012, 02:02:01 AM »
Quote
However, a Philadelphia Mint cashier had managed to give or sell some of them to a local coin dealer, Israel Switt.

That seems like a legit way to get some gold coins.
I still don't see why they have to forgo compensation.
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Fly320s

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2012, 06:59:08 AM »
That seems like a legit way to get some gold coins.
I still don't see why they have to forgo compensation.

Sounds legit to me, too.

Why is the government not required to prove those coins were stolen?
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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2012, 08:33:12 AM »
This story's been out there for years.  It was known that a number of coins made it out of the mint without the proper accounting - they had "gone missing".  A clerk could not just walk up to a barrel full of double eagles, stuff a couple handfuls in his pocket, say "Good morning Frank" and grab a cup of coffee on his morning break.  If the coins were not issued and removed from the mint by the cavalier actions of an employee, they were stolen.


This has always had the making of a good B movie, Cast Swit as the greedy manipulative coin merchant whose selfish motivations bankrupt his ancestors, the clerk as a meek or indebted but good hearted family guy forced to choose between his family's safety and pilfering from his employer.  The king Farouk sideplot will get us out of Philly with some on location in Egypt I'm seeing the three stooges Raja Aha, but I'm sure a cinematographer can make that shine.

Anyhow, as much as it pains me, I agree with Irwin (swallows hard and spits).  These coins were stolen, and the fence's successors don't seem to have any right to them.
Now, if they'd have kept their yap shut like Little Eddie warned, they coulda got them outta the country on a private flight, or a boat from key west to Cuba.  Yea, I see it now.  I need to go, I got a novel to write.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2012, 09:32:25 AM »
Sounds legit to me, too.

Why is the government not required to prove those coins were stolen?

They did. To a jury. That got all the facts not some hand selected by the second place lawyer. How much you wanna bet he got paid his money win or lose
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2012, 02:01:00 PM »
The lawyers always win.
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K Frame

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2012, 08:59:08 AM »
"If the gold is "removed from circulation" under threat of force then it *expletive deleted* well is immoral and unethical."

 ;/

Monkey Mountain Militia, much?

Virtually all, if not all, laws at the Federal, State, and Local levels come under the threat of force.

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« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 10:23:01 AM by Mike Irwin »
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K Frame

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2012, 09:04:35 AM »
That seems like a legit way to get some gold coins.
I still don't see why they have to forgo compensation.

Uhm... What parts of the scenario aren't clear?

1. Distribution of gold coins had been stopped. That means that there was NO way to remove coins from the mint, even via a 1 for 1 exchange.

2. The 1933 Double Eagles were NEVER monetized. Until money is actually monetized, or authorized for distribution into the economy, there is NO legal way to remove it from the Mint at all.

So, no matter who did it, no matter how it was done, and no matter when it was done, removal of the 1933 coins from the mint was a felony theft.
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K Frame

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2012, 09:14:26 AM »
"Cast Swit as the greedy manipulative coin merchant whose selfish motivations bankrupt his ancestors, the clerk as a meek or indebted but good hearted family guy forced to choose between his family's safety and pilfering from his employer."

That seems to be a fair portrayal of Israel Swit, but it isn't even close to being accurate for George McCann.

Before he became cashier at the Philadelphia mint McCann apparently served time in jail for embezzelment and fraud.
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BryanP

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2012, 11:11:46 AM »
If the gold is "removed from circulation" under threat of force then it *expletive deleted* well is immoral and unethical. You keep on about how the coins were stolen from the government but don't seem to give a good god damn for the property rights of the common citizen. I can honestly say I had no idea you were such a Statist.

Okay, I'm a bit confused.  How can they have had property rights to stolen property?
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2012, 11:24:05 AM »
Okay, I'm a bit confused.  How can they have had property rights to stolen property?

I'm referring to the gold held before the 1933 gold act. Not these contested coins specifically.

Tallpine

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2012, 12:34:06 PM »
I'm referring to the gold held before the 1933 gold act. Not these contested coins specifically.

How do they prove these specific coins were stolen  ???
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RevDisk

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2012, 12:36:56 PM »
Wow, you actually believe that removing gold from circulation was ' morally and ethically' wrong?

While I agree with your other statements, on 99.9% likely these were stolen goods... If stolen from the US government, US government has a right to recover their property.

As for this comment...  Yes, banning gold is morally and ethically wrong. So was Prohibition and much/most of our War of Drugs. I view the ever expanding interstate commerce clause with little respect. At least Prohibition went the honest route via amendment, for all of its horrors. Government does not have to mint and sell gold. Does not necessarily mean they have a right to price fix and confiscate private goods.

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kgbsquirrel

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2012, 12:38:09 PM »
How do they prove these specific coins were stolen  ???

"No 1933 coins were ever released to public circulation, there-fore all 1933 coins in public circulation are stolen." Such is their claim.

Except for the one they let the Saudi Egyptian king keep. I guess theft isn't theft if you're important enough. Just ask Mike Irwin there, forcing people to hand over all their privately held gold isn't theft, 'cause it was the government doing the stealing de-circulating of privately owned non-monetary gold bullion.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 03:52:40 PM by kgbsquirrel »

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2012, 03:28:37 PM »
is it your contention that the king held his coin illegally?  can you support that?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2012, 03:32:37 PM »
save you some trouble   interject facts
Egyptian Double Eagle

The missing Double Eagle was acquired by King Farouk of Egypt, who was a voracious collector of many things, including Imperial Fabergé eggs, antique aspirin bottles, paperweights, postage stamps—and coins, of which he had a collection of over 8,500. In 1944 Farouk purchased a 1933 Double Eagle, and in strict adherence with the law, his ministers applied to the United States Treasury Department for an export license for the coin. Mistakenly, just days before the Mint theft was discovered, the license was granted. The Treasury Department attempted to work through diplomatic channels to request the return of the coin from Egypt, but World War II delayed their efforts for several years. In 1952 King Farouk was deposed in a coup d'etat, and many of his possessions were made available for public auction (run by Sotheby's) – including the Double Eagle coin. The United States Government requested the return of the coin, and the Egyptian government stated that it would comply with the request. However, at that time the coin disappeared and was not seen again in Egypt.

In 1996 a Double Eagle surfaced again after over forty years of obscurity, when British coin dealer Stephen Fenton was arrested by US Secret Service agents during a sting operation at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel in New York.[1] Although he initially told investigators he bought the coin over the counter at his shop, he later changed his story. Under sworn testimony, he insisted the Double Eagle had come from the collection of King Farouk, though this could not be verified. Charges against Fenton were subsequently dropped, and he defended his ownership of the coin in court. The case was settled in 2001 when it was agreed that ownership of the Double Eagle would revert to the United States Government, and the coin could then legally be sold at auction.[2] The United States Treasury issued a document to "issue and monetize" the coin, thereby making it a legal-tender gold coin in the United States.

When the coin was seized, it was transferred to a holding place believed to be safe: the Treasury vaults of the World Trade Center.[3] When the court settlement was reached in July 2001, only two months before the Trade Center was destroyed, the coin was transferred to Fort Knox for safekeeping.

On July 30, 2002, the 1933 Double Eagle was sold to an anonymous bidder at a Sotheby's auction held in New York for $6.6 million, plus a 15-percent buyer's premium, and an additional $20 needed to “monetize” the face value of the coin so it would become legal currency, bringing the final sale price to $7,590,020.00, almost twice the previous record for a coin.[4] Half the bid price was to be delivered to the United States Treasury, plus the $20 to monetize the coin, while Stephen Fenton was entitled to the other half. The auction took less than nine minutes.



It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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kgbsquirrel

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2012, 03:56:55 PM »
Quote
Under sworn testimony, he insisted the Double Eagle had come from the collection of King Farouk, though this could not be verified. Charges against Fenton were subsequently dropped,

So, because it was King Farouk's, it was okay, they weren't going to press charges for theft. Like I said, if you're important enough...

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: gov't sanctioned robbery? I think so!
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2012, 04:12:12 PM »
So, because it was King Farouk's, it was okay, they weren't going to press charges for theft. Like I said, if you're important enough...


you overlooked/ignored this?
In 1944 Farouk purchased a 1933 Double Eagle, and in strict adherence with the law, his ministers applied to the United States Treasury Department for an export license for the coin. Mistakenly, just days before the Mint theft was discovered, the license was granted.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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