More SCOTUS betrayal- Stolen Valor.

[RoadKingLarry]

So the SCOTUS also ruled that it is OK to lie about receiving military medals

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/28/court-tosses-law-about-false-claims-on-medals/?test=latestnews

Since lying is constitutionally protected under the 1st amendment what else is it OK to lie about?

[TommyGunn]

So the SCOTUS also ruled that it is OK to lie about receiving military medals

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/28/court-tosses-law-about-false-claims-on-medals/?test=latestnews

Since lying is constitutionally protected under the 1st amendment what else is it OK to lie about?

Involvement in a gun-running scheme ...... 

I actually don't have a big problem with this ruling.  I do, however, think that people who falsely claim they have medals for heroic deeds they never did should be introduced to Seal Team Six. 

[Perd Hapley]

We have laws against fraud. If the lie isn't actionable under such laws, then free speech seems to apply.

FWIW, I've served in the military. I have no medals to write home about. People like Alvarez should be ashamed of themselves, but they shouldn't be dragged into court. Maybe encouraged to self-deport...

[Regolith]

We have laws against fraud. If the lie isn't actionable under such laws, then free speech seems to apply.

+1.

This law reminds me of medieval to early-modern-age England, where lying about your class would get you imprisoned. *expletive deleted* that noise.

[Hawkmoon]

Let's see ...

It is unlawful to claim to be a police officer if you are not a police officer;

It is unlawful to claim to be a member of the U.S. military if you are not a member of the U.S. military;

It is unlawful to wear the uniform of any of the branches of the U.S. military if you are not a member of the U.S. military;

It is unlawful (I think) to wear any U.S. military medal which has not been awarded to you by the U.S. military;

BUT ...

Somehow it is NOT unlawful to claim that you "were" a member of the U.S. military and to claim (without wearing it) that you were awarded various medals of the U.S. military? This makes no sense at all. Why is it an actionable offense to falsely claim that you ARE a member of the military or to wear a medal you didn't earn while you are in the service, but NOT an actionable offense to falsely claim that you WERE a member of the military or to wear (or claim) a medal you didn't earn when you are NOT a member of the U.S. military?

I'm losing all respect for the SCOTUS -- even the couple for whom I once had a modicum of respect.

[Perd Hapley]

Let's see ...

It is unlawful to claim to be a police officer if you are not a police officer;

It is unlawful to claim to be a member of the U.S. military if you are not a member of the U.S. military;

It is unlawful to wear the uniform of any of the branches of the U.S. military if you are not a member of the U.S. military;

It is unlawful (I think) to wear any U.S. military medal which has not been awarded to you by the U.S. military;

Are any of those things true? 

[roo_ster]

Are any of those things true? 

Yes.

NYS
http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article190.htm

Ohio
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.51

Cali
http://www.shouselaw.com/false-impersonation.html

Those ^^^ are just the first three that popped on a search into laws against impersonating a police officer.  The King doesn;t want you defrauding his subjects, as he dislikes the competition.

[Regolith]

It's unlawful to claim to be a police officer because police officers are granted powers that ordinary citizens don't have. This is generally not true with military personnel.

It is unlawful to claim to be a member of the U.S. military if you are not a member of the U.S. military; [citation needed]

It is unlawful to wear the uniform of any of the branches of the U.S. military if you are not a member of the U.S. military; [citation needed]

It is unlawful (I think) to wear any U.S. military medal which has not been awarded to you by the U.S. military; [citation needed]

[Perd Hapley]

Yes.

NYS
http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article190.htm

Ohio
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.51

Cali
http://www.shouselaw.com/false-impersonation.html

Those ^^^ are just the first three that popped on a search into laws against impersonating a police officer.  The King doesn;t want you defrauding his subjects, as he dislikes the competition.

The NY and Cali laws specify that the impersonator has to be attempting to gain some benefit, or do some kind of harm, which should already be covered by laws against fraud. The Ohio laws make impersonation a crime, regardless, but still say it's ok if there is a "lawful purpose." I presume that exception is intended for theatrical productions and Halloween and such.

[BryanP]

Let's see ...

It is unlawful to claim to be a police officer if you are not a police officer;

It is unlawful to claim to be a member of the U.S. military if you are not a member of the U.S. military;

It is unlawful to wear the uniform of any of the branches of the U.S. military if you are not a member of the U.S. military;

It is unlawful (I think) to wear any U.S. military medal which has not been awarded to you by the U.S. military;

Impersonating an actively serving police officer or member of the military is illegal because doing so allows you to situationally exert authority over others.   Telling someone you used to be a cop or in the military doesn't mean diddly beyond them possibly giving you respect you don't deserve.

I think people who falsely claim military service or honors are douchebags of the highest order, but I have to grudgingly agree with the Alvarez ruling.

[RevDisk]

We have laws against fraud. If the lie isn't actionable under such laws, then free speech seems to apply.

As much as it sucks, pretty much.  


I'm not even sure of how many medals I have? I tended to throw them in a sack of other junk. More ribbons meant more stuff I had to keep track of on my Class A's. I tended to never get a medal for anything I thought was worthwhile. But I got an Commendation or Achievement medal for wiring the base theater for AV and ethernet over a weekend.  

I just wonder why the heck someone would try to impress folks with fake ribbons. WTF? So you can bask in the high esteem that folks have for your fake history?

Impersonating an actively serving police officer or member of the military is illegal because doing so allows you to situationally exert authority over others.   Telling someone you used to be a cop or in the military doesn't mean diddly beyond them possibly giving you respect you don't deserve.

I think people who falsely claim military service or honors are douchebags of the highest order, but I have to grudgingly agree with the Alvarez ruling.

I gotta agree with Bryan. It sucks, but it's the right call.

[AJ Dual]

As much as it sucks, pretty much.  


I'm not even sure of how many medals I have? I tended to throw them in a sack of other junk. More ribbons meant more stuff I had to keep track of on my Class A's. I tended to never get a medal for anything I thought was worthwhile. But I got an Commendation or Achievement medal for wiring the base theater for AV and ethernet over a weekend.  

I just wonder why the heck someone would try to impress folks with fake ribbons. WTF? So you can bask in the high esteem that folks have for your fake history?


I gotta agree with Bryan. It sucks, but it's the right call.

This.

Ultimately, enforcing stolen valor comes down to "more government" not less. I'll take odious posuer douchebags and less government, thanks.

[longeyes]

If the rule of law means the rule of lying then all is well.  One more brick in the wall.  This is no victory for individual liberty twist it as we may.

[just Warren]

This doesn't need to be illegal, a program of naming and shaming will work just as well.

[gunsmith]

I've met quite a few green berets/special forces/seal team/"marines" that for some reason do not know what a dd214 is.

One "navy seal" I met didn't know where fore or aft was, as well as bow and stern  when he didn't know dd214 I screamed at him and embarrassed him in front of the 5 or 6 people he was drinking with, I hadn't intended to, it just happened.

 Generally I keep my mouth shut with these types and keep in mind not to trust them.

[Perd Hapley]

If the rule of law means the rule of lying then all is well.  One more brick in the wall.  This is no victory for individual liberty twist it as we may.

I would think that you, of all people, would see the problem with governments punishing people for speaking what the government considers to be lies. I, for one, don't want to be jailed for spreading "lies" about global warming, or what-have-you.

[Sergeant Bob]

As much as it sucks, pretty much.  


I'm not even sure of how many medals I have? I tended to throw them in a sack of other junk. More ribbons meant more stuff I had to keep track of on my Class A's. I tended to never get a medal for anything I thought was worthwhile. But I got an Commendation or Achievement medal for wiring the base theater for AV and ethernet over a weekend.  

I just wonder why the heck someone would try to impress folks with fake ribbons. WTF? So you can bask in the high esteem that folks have for your fake history?


I gotta agree with Bryan. It sucks, but it's the right call.

I'm with Rev and fistful on this.

Sometimes free speech sucks but, we're much better off with it than trying to control it.

[erictank]

This doesn't need to be illegal, a program of naming and shaming will work just as well.

This.

Yes, stolen-valor types are posers and douchebags, and if they say or do something which is actionable under fraud law, nail 'em to the wall. Otherwise, I have to agree that naming and shaming is a better course of action than calling for yet another law.

[seeker_two]

Impersonating an actively serving police officer or member of the military is illegal because doing so allows you to situationally exert authority over others.   Telling someone you used to be a cop or in the military doesn't mean diddly beyond them possibly giving you respect you don't deserve.

Unless..... http://www.tali.org/licensing_requirements.htm

To be a private investigator in Texas, you have to have at least three years of investigation experience. Most PI's get that through working for a law enforcement agency. Under your reasoning, it's OK to lie about having been a LEO b/c you are not actively serving as a LEO. I think the State of Texas might see that differently.....or, at least, make for a great case to test....

I think SCOTUS screwed this one, too.....if the "Stolen Valor" scum weren't lying for gain, what were they lying for?....

[Balog]

I think either existing federal fraud laws or local SV equivalents are the way to address the issue. A fed.gov law does seem to infringe the 1st as well as overstep Constitutional reach.

[Matthew Carberry]

Unless..... http://www.tali.org/licensing_requirements.htm

To be a private investigator in Texas, you have to have at least three years of investigation experience. Most PI's get that through working for a law enforcement agency. Under your reasoning, it's OK to lie about having been a LEO b/c you are not actively serving as a LEO. I think the State of Texas might see that differently.....or, at least, make for a great case to test....

I think SCOTUS screwed this one, too.....if the "Stolen Valor" scum weren't lying for gain, what were they lying for?....

If you actually read the ruling (this is to everyone, not just you) you will see that the reasoning is that by merely claiming the awards/association you are not gaining a palpable benefit from your lie.

However, if you lie in order to gain a real benefit, like a PI license, or on offcial documents with penalties associated, then applicable fraud laws apply.  As with most laws, the trick is to write narrow laws that punish only actions that actually harm others.

[seeker_two]

If you actually read the ruling (this is to everyone, not just you) you will see that the reasoning is that by merely claiming the awards/association you are not gaining a palpable benefit from your lie.

Then what was the purpose of their lie?.....

[Matthew Carberry]

Then what was the purpose of their lie?.....

Personal aggrandizement apparently doesn't count. The Court basically said info was available to check in cases that mattered but didn't rise to "gain", like elections.

[longeyes]

I would think that you, of all people, would see the problem with governments punishing people for speaking what the government considers to be lies. I, for one, don't want to be jailed for spreading "lies" about global warming, or what-have-you.

I was referring to the specific case but point well taken.  It's just symptomatic of the culture's decline, though.

[wmenorr67]

As I read in one article.  These people usually are dealt with in other matters.  And then I can claim 1st Amendment protection when I take care of the situation.