Michigan legislature butthurt over Tesla, votes to essentially ban them

[Balog]

http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2014/10/gov_rick_snyder_signs_anti-tes.html

I don't like Teslas that much, but seeing some local .gov flunkies trying to stifle freedom of choice and competition makes me like them more. I'm sure your legislation will keep all those buggy whip makers in your state on top there Snyder.

[Scout26]

As much as they tout their "Direct to the Customer" they still have storefronts in malls and the like.  Granted it's slightly different then a dealership as far as who works for whom, but there are still sales guys and while they may not be trying to upsell the rustproofing, they are still trying to sell.  (although with a sticker price of $60k-100k) they aren't for the teeming mass of drivers.

And several times in the article it clearly states that the Tesla's retail model is already prohibited from selling in MI, so I'm not sure the headline is accurate.

[Marnoot]

(although with a sticker price of $60k-100k) they aren't for the teeming mass of drivers.

They're coming out with a $30K-35K "Model 3" in 2016 or 2017. Still a tad pricey, but about the same as a top-trim Honda Accord. I'm still undecided about electric cars; they're just almost to where I'd consider one. Just really need one more battery technology revolution on the scale of the one from NiMH to Lithium-based, and I think they'll really take off (if the price were right). As it is I have a 40 mile commute, and most electric cars could just barely make it there and back, if I didn't use the A/C or heater . . . One thing the Teslas have going for them is better range over most other electric cars. The Model 3 is supposed to have a 200 mile range.

[Nick1911]

I've yet to understand the appeal of electric cars.

[Brad Johnson]

They're coming out with a $30K-35K "Model 3" in 2016 or 2017. Still a tad pricey, but about the same as a top-trim Honda Accord. I'm still undecided about electric cars; they're just almost to where I'd consider one. Just really need one more battery technology revolution on the scale of the one from NiMH to Lithium-based, and I think they'll really take off (if the price were right). As it is I have a 40 mile commute, and most electric cars could just barely make it there and back, if I didn't use the A/C or heater . . . One thing the Teslas have going for them is better range over most other electric cars. The Model 3 is supposed to have a 200 mile range.

From what I've seen in road tests the Tesla's claimed range is a bit on the, shall we say, optimistic side. Real-world range in everyday driving seems to be anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 the advertised range, and is as dependent on weather as it is driving conditions. Using A/C or heat is an instant 1/3 range hit.

There's also the problem with them bursting into lithium-enhanced flame at the slightest provocation (like speed bumps or common roadway debris). I think they've undergone a significant redesign to combat the issue, but until they dramatically improve battery type/casement it will remain a problem to some degree.

Brad

[Calumus]

Tesla is the company that sued Top Gear for reporting that their mileage claims were a joke, and that both their testers had catastrophic failures. Personally, if I had to drive an eco friendly car, and could afford one, I'd get a Fisker Karma. Great looking car,  1000lb/ft of torque, and no charging needed.

[Firethorn]

I've yet to understand the appeal of electric cars.

100% torque at 0 RPM
Quiet
Don't need to visit gas stations
Vastly lower per mile cost

They're still too short ranged to meet everybody's needs as well as too expensive, but they have improved tremendously.

Calumus - From what I've heard, Fisker Karmas are horrible cars in reality.  A lot of defects.

[MechAg94]

How is the per mile cost calculated? 

[Brad Johnson]

How is the per mile cost calculated? 

The ones I've seen were strictly electrical cost per mile, ignoring the actual (unsubsidized) battery replacement cost amortized over a given mileage. IIRC there was a thread a few years back where we calculated all of that on an actual cost-per-mile basis. At that time and gas price a passenger car getting somewhere in the upper 20s/lower 30s mpg have a same per-mile ownership cost as whatever electric we were using for comparison.

Brad

[Ben]

The ones I've seen were strictly electrical cost per mile,

Did they assume cost as plugging it at home? I'm going to be curious to see what per mile changes happen when electrics become more ubiquitous. Right now, due to incentives, electric car drivers can plug into all sorts of "free" charge stations when they're on the road.

If the vehicles become more commonplace, that incentive is going to go away. Chargers like the AeroVironment rapid chargers are not cheap.  At some point, there's going to be the equivalent of gas stations, and those operators are going to want to recover costs and make a profit.

[KD5NRH]

Did they assume cost as plugging it at home? I'm going to be curious to see what per mile changes happen when electrics become more ubiquitous. Right now, due to incentives, electric car drivers can plug into all sorts of "free" charge stations when they're on the road.

For people who don't drive a whole lot, an off-grid solar charging station converts the monthly bill into a one-time investment.  Grid tied ones balance out more effectively for most, though.

[Tallpine]

I've yet to understand the appeal of electric cars.

I would love to have an electric vehicle if it was big enough and had a long enough range.   

[Ben]

For people who don't drive a whole lot, an off-grid solar charging station converts the monthly bill into a one-time investment.  Grid tied ones balance out more effectively for most, though.

I was meaning commercial stations, rather than someone buying a home station though. If you have even 50% of vehicles on the road being electric, and lets assume a fast charge rate of 15 minutes, that's still way slower than a gas fillup. I would imagine that an "electric gas station" in an urban / suburban area would have to have at least twenty charge stations to keep lines from forming. That's gotta be many acres of solar panels.

[KD5NRH]

I was meaning commercial stations, rather than someone buying a home station though. If you have even 50% of vehicles on the road being electric, and lets assume a fast charge rate of 15 minutes, that's still way slower than a gas fillup. I would imagine that an "electric gas station" in an urban / suburban area would have to have at least twenty charge stations to keep lines from forming. That's gotta be many acres of solar panels.

For most of the real target market, there's not much use to commercial charging stations; you'd still have something gasoline powered for long trips, and use the electric for the daily commute, grocery runs, etc. that don't come near its total range.  Considering how rarely I drive more than 25 miles in a day, I'd love to have one of the electric motorcycles with a 30-50 mile range, and wouldn't really ever have a need to charge it away from home, though I would still need a car for the once-a-month 200 mile round trip to some event in the city.

Therein lies a big part of the problem, IMO; even if I only got the regular car out of the garage once or twice a month, registration, inspection and insurance costs would still be the same as if I drove it every day.  There should be low-use vehicle options for those that would allow somebody who drives a particular car less than x miles per year or less than y days per year to get them much more cheaply and pay them 2-3 years at a time.

[Nick1911]

Yea, still not seeing it.

100% torque at 0 RPM

I've had several of cars that could roast the tires off the line in their stock configuration.

Quiet

The only car I had that was actually loud was an Eagle talon that the previous owner put a glass pack on.  I had it cut off and a muffler put on, and it was fine.  Seriously, are there people that think production cars with factory exhaust are too loud because of engine noise?

Don't need to visit gas stations

I suppose there's something to that, but I rather like that I can dump hundreds of miles of energy into my car in a few minutes.

Vastly lower per mile cost

I believe this will be fixed by our legislators soon.  The vastly lower cost per mile is not because of end to end energy efficiency, it is because of effectively evading road and fuel taxes.  That won't be allowed to stand in the long term.

[Ben]

For most of the real target market, there's not much use to commercial charging stations; you'd still have something gasoline powered for long trips, and use the electric for the daily commute, grocery runs, etc. that don't come near its total range.  Considering how rarely I drive more than 25 miles in a day, I'd love to have one of the electric motorcycles with a 30-50 mile range, and wouldn't really ever have a need to charge it away from home, though I would still need a car for the once-a-month 200 mile round trip to some event in the city.

Therein lies a big part of the problem, IMO; even if I only got the regular car out of the garage once or twice a month, registration, inspection and insurance costs would still be the same as if I drove it every day.  There should be low-use vehicle options for those that would allow somebody who drives a particular car less than x miles per year or less than y days per year to get them much more cheaply and pay them 2-3 years at a time.

I can certainly concede to that point in the somewhat short-mid term. I guess the very long term question would be, will we still have / be allowed to drive gasoline and diesel vehicles for those long trips, and if so, will the fuel be affordable, or $20/gal? If the electric vehicle becomes the primary mode of personal transportation for both short and long trips, there are going to have to be enough commercial charging stations available to make trips efficient (i.e., not having to drive well out of one's way or wait in long lines).

[Angel Eyes]

Electric cars can use diamond lanes (carpool lanes) regardless of the number of occupants.  Of course, this is an artificial advantage created by the government, and is irrelevant if there are no diamond lanes in your area.

[Scout26]

And let's not ignore the Administration's War on Coal.  Electricity prices are going to rise as Nuke plants approach the end of their service lives, and more and more coal fired plants go off-line due to the new EPA regs.   Green energy won't be able to make up for those losses and feed electric cars.

[Firethorn]

ignoring the actual (unsubsidized) battery replacement cost amortized over a given mileage.

Was that back in the lead-acid/NiMH days?  They've really come a long way since then at extending the life of the battery, and their cost per kwh has dropped substantially as well.

An $12k battery that lasts 12 years at 15k miles a year less than 7 cents a mile.  Electricity adds another 3 cents or so.

Tesla is working on cutting the cost of the battery in half again.

[Calumus]

Calumus - From what I've heard, Fisker Karmas are horrible cars in reality.  A lot of defects.

I've read the same, plus the company is bankrupt. So not exactly a safe bet in any case. They just happen to be a genuinely good looking car, which isn't par for the course with eco-mobiles. Its also more practical then a straight electric, it actually runs off of a gas powered generator. You can still drive the thing like a real car. Realistically, if they got distribution set up, hydrogen is the way to go. The Honda Clarity is a hydrogen power cell car that you fill up like normal. Pull up to a pump, fill it up with hydrogen in a couple minutes, then drive 400 miles. wouldn't have to change our way of life at all. There's a good Top Gear review of it from a couple of years ago.

[Boomhauer]

Charging stations are non-existent in my area. We seldom see pure electric vehicles (lots of hybrids though). The only time in recent memory I can recall seeing an electric car, it was driven by one of the local econuts and was plugged into the exterior outlet at the office at my old park so that he could sap electricity while he went to the beach for the day. I flipped off the breaker to that circuit since the panel was in my office...and secured it with a lockout cover...

[MillCreek]

^^^ Did it make you feel good to Fight The Power like this?

[sumpnz]

Was that back in the lead-acid/NiMH days?  They've really come a long way since then at extending the life of the battery, and their cost per kwh has dropped substantially as well.

...

Tesla is working on cutting the cost of the battery in half again.

Color me skeptical.  I'll believe Musk when I see it.

[Scout26]

Chemistry and Physics are against him....

[Marnoot]

Chemistry and Physics are against him....

There have been some promising improvements to lithium-ion technology in the news recently. One example (double the energy density, 1/5 the cost):

http://fortune.com/2014/09/18/sakti3-lithium-ion-battery/

Of course that one is "2-3 years from commercialization", the question is whether in 2-3 years it will be available to buy or still "2-3 years from commercialization".