Keystone Pipeline

[wmenorr67]

Saw/heard on the news this morning that Congress is going to push this forward again.  Dems claim they have enough votes to uphold a veto if needed but are willing to compromise.  A couple of things they want is that 1) all the steel is American and 2) the oil is to be used here instead of exported.

What are your thoughts about that?  My firsts ones are that by using American steel you just increased the cost of the damn thing and on the oil being used here, not sure that the US is set up to refine the type of oil that would be sent through the pipeline.

[roo_ster]

As far as political compromises go, that is a pretty decent one.

As with any monkeying, lots of second-order effects, though.

Such as:
1. Increased material cost (already cited)
2. With export restrictions on this oil, other American-sourced oil more likely to be sent overseas.
3. When the price of oil plummets, other sources of American oil more likely to be pinched off as Keystone oil has to be sold, first.

But like I wrote above, that sausage hardly makes you wince.

[TommyGunn]

I heard Chuckie Schumer wax idiotic on this on a radio news blurb.
*!SIGH!*  Yea, we could legislate the oil be uused in America.   Roo_ster already pointed out the consequences; oil is highly fungible.  It moves hither and yon in tankers.  The Alaskan Pipeline resulted in a lot of oil going overseas too -- Japan, IIRC.   
But the act of pumping oil, and shipping it, that has the effect of putting more of it in the world's supply and guess what effect THAT has on oil prices?  Keeps it down.   Not that we really need more downward pressure on oil prices, really; the Dow Jones is down 250+ pts. due to low oil prices, but I suspect this will change.
Make the steel here?   Fine. And again Roo_ster pointed it out that that means higher prices.   We ought to be higher up the chain when it comes to steel production .... but that won't be changed very much by just this pipeline. 

The way this country has acted on this has irritated the *** in some Canadian circles.  They ARE our neighbors and our friends and I think we ought to treating them more respectfully.  Just let this pipeline get done and make everyone happy.  It's gonna happen one way or another. 
STOP the political nuttery!!!!!
But our jack-asses in D.C. have to be ... jack asses I guess....

[Scout26]

Oil is below $50 a barrel.  Good thing we can't drill our way to lower oil prices huh, Mr Obama.*



*- if you fail to understand basic and fundamental economic concepts, then you have no business holding any elective office, much less POTUS.

[Firethorn]

What are your thoughts about that?  My firsts ones are that by using American steel you just increased the cost of the damn thing and on the oil being used here, not sure that the US is set up to refine the type of oil that would be sent through the pipeline.

I've read that they're currently having problems because fracking and such is providing them with light sweet crude when they were expecting the heavy stuff from oil sands/tars, thus they refineries are set up for what would come out of keystone, not what they're getting now.

[wmenorr67]

I've read that they're currently having problems because fracking and such is providing them with light sweet crude when they were expecting the heavy stuff from oil sands/tars, thus they refineries are set up for what would come out of keystone, not what they're getting now.

That could well be true, imagine where gas prices would be if we could actually refine everything that is being dumped on the market right now.

[Regolith]

A couple of things they want is that ... the oil is to be used here instead of exported.

Oil is pretty fungible. It doesn't make bit of difference where the oil is used. It will have the same effect on oil prices either way. 

[wmenorr67]

Oil is pretty fungible. It doesn't make bit of difference where the oil is used. It will have the same effect on oil prices either way. 

It wasn't about the price of oil, it was about creating jobs.

[Ron]

It appears the market would have it built already if it wasn't for the government interference.

As long as it isn't impacting others property rights it should be built.

[Scout26]

Low energy prices creates jobs.  Again, oil (and gasoline) is a global commodity, where it comes from and where it's used really doesn't matter.

[charby]

As long as it isn't impacting others property rights it should be built.

That is the problem with pipelines, they need to cross private property to get to their destination.

[MechAg94]

That is the problem with pipelines, they need to cross private property to get to their destination.

But that is a problem the pipeline builders can deal with.  Such things are dealt with privately in Texas all the time.  I don't know if other state eminent domain that stuff or not though.  

I heard my employer recently had to run a couple miles around the property of a widow who refused to allow us to cross through.  Knowing what is in it, I don't think I would want it crossing my property either.

[MechAg94]

Also, most hydrocarbon and chemical pipelines down here are required to be taken out of service and insepcted every five or several years.  I think we hydrotested the last time they tested a section nearby.  Do any of you know if this is done nationally or in other states? 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

That is the problem with pipelines, they need to cross private property to get to their destination.

That's not what's stopped the xl though. It was tree huggers and folks pretending to be bunny squeezers. And those who use that ill as pawns


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[Scout26]

That is the problem with pipelines, they need to cross private property to get to their destination.

Yes, and they generally pay the landowner for the easement, just like any other utility.  At least that's what we got when Enbridge put a pipeline through my gun club's property*.   Afterwards they restored it (it was farmland so not that hard) to original condition.  Unless you know where to look for the "Caution underground pipeline" signs, you wouldn't even know it's there.



*- A neighbor was holding out for more money, so they came to us with an attractive offer and slightly re-routed the pipeline to avoid his property.    Which is why I laugh at those people and Indian Tribes refusing to let Keystone XL through their lands.   Good.  Someone else will take the money and they'll go around your land.  Loser.

[RevDisk]

That is the problem with pipelines, they need to cross private property to get to their destination.

Government entities have a habit of trying to seize property and pay pennies on the dollar. Eminent domain to profit private third parties makes my skin crawl.

I personally think the government should be forced to pay a minimum of double the worth of any property they seize for any purposes.

[Ron]

Government entities have a habit of trying to seize property and pay pennies on the dollar. Eminent domain to profit private third parties makes my skin crawl.

I personally think the government should be forced to pay a minimum of double the worth of any property they seize for any purposes.

Heard of any issues regarding this and Keystone? I haven't.

If there were landowners losing their property for pennies on the dollar or even being forced off their land I'm sure the left would have been trumpeting it from every newscast.

I'm OK with government paying double the value myself; just on the principle that property should be held as near sacred.

[Scout26]

Three appraisals (Picked by the property owner and all paid for by the .gov), take the highest of the three and either double or treble it.  

That's what any .gov entity has to pay for any and all property.


The only land owners that have complained about Keystone is some Indian Tribe (Way to piss away money guys!!!)  And a couple of farmers here and there.   The pipeline companies generally are pretty flexible and will go around your property, if you don't want their dirty, filthy, oil lucre.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

The times I've seen price challenged have always worked out in the landowners favor. And it's usually local gov that low balls


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[roo_ster]

Guy in east texas squawked about a lower OK-TX part of the Keystone pipeline going through his land.  Problem was, he was already paid for it when he squawked.  Pipeline builders instead took him to court and beat him like a drum.  IMO, if you take the money you just sold them the right of way.

I can live with eminent domain for public use/public right of ways that benefit more than just one clutch of investors and gov't toadies.  Roads, bridges, etc.  Pipelines & powerlines are in this category, IMO.  Seizing land to give to the owner of a NFL football team for a new stadium?  No flipping way.

Our church will lose a very long triangle of property when the city finally improves the road out front.  Base of triangle is 10' and extends a few hundred feet along hte street.  Guy from the city thought he was going to get lynched and had his running shoes on when he came in.  He was pleasantly surprised when we listened to his reasonable plan and did not let slip the hounds.  "So, we get a better-designed roadway and intersections, another lane, new sidewalks with barriers, new power & phone poles, better street lights...and you are still going to pay us for the triangle of land?  We can live with that."  That is hte way it is supposed to work.

[MechAg94]

Also, note that pipeline right of ways don't necessarily take land away.  More that it limits use and allows some limited access.  My grandfather's land out where I grew up still has a pipeline running through it.  There are markers at the fencelines and every decade or so they send cutters through to keep trees from overgrowing it.  I think they fly a plane over to do the required visual inspections. 

It actually makes a decent place for a deer stand as you can see anything crossing from the woods on either side. 

[brimic]

Also, note that pipeline right of ways don't necessarily take land away.  More that it limits use and allows some limited access.  My grandfather's land out where I grew up still has a pipeline running through it.  There are markers at the fencelines and every decade or so they send cutters through to keep trees from overgrowing it.  I think they fly a plane over to do the required visual inspections. 

It actually makes a decent place for a deer stand as you can see anything crossing from the woods on either side. 

pipeline and powerline cuts can be very valuable hunting space around here.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I had a similar experience with an elderly friend who was gonna lose his whole house to a road widening project. He was losing his mind talking about waiting for em with his bar if they didn't treat him right. (Project had been delayed years so no offer yet) I contacted vdot explained his fears and they sent their team out in 3 days made him an offer everyone thought was very fair then when the new house the gave him free and clear had some issues we made them aware and they fixed it no hassles. He walked away with a better house free and clear and enough in the bank to more than take care of the taxes till he and wife are into  their 100's


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[charby]

.   Afterwards they restored it (it was farmland so not that hard) to original condition.  Unless you know where to look for the "Caution underground pipeline" signs, you wouldn't even know it's there. 

Visually restoring farm ground easy, soil properties/fertility/structure not so much. Soil is way more complex then people give it credit for.

If I owned prime farm ground, something that consistently produced 250-300 bu/ac of corn, I'd be very hesitant to allow the construction activity of burying a pipeline. Pasture (not hay) ground not so much.

Actually soil properties wise it would be easier to bury a pipeline in a housing development that was already highly disturbed from the construction activity.

[Waitone]

Warren Buffett spent billions in buying CSX railroad which would be used to transport crude to refineries.  He has a vested interest in not seeing the pipeline constructed.  How difficult do you think it would be for Warren to whistle up some aggrieved environmental fax machine to file suit to stop whatever it is congress wants to do.