Author Topic: theological philosophy  (Read 37905 times)

Stand_watie

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« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2005, 12:01:09 AM »
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My rackmate was also our religious PO (and a devout Lutheran). He and I got into a discussion with an atheist, trying to argue from our two vantage points that there HAD to be some form of higher being: the ahteist ended up becoming a Protestant a couple weeks later, and was still practicing when I saw him a year or so later. There's an equation in there somewhere (Pagan + Lutheran= Protestant)...
I believe in God, but ever since I've ever seriously considered it, I'd have thought genuinely unbiased agnosticism would be a vastly more logical viewpoint than atheism from the perspective of the world as we can prove it from scientific data.
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tyme

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« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2005, 02:37:50 PM »
stand_watie, asking me to be an unbiased agnostic is too much.
Throughout recent history, religion has routinely been shown to have fabricated causes for and meanings of physical processes.  Through science, we now know the causes of most sickness, we understand weather enough to know that the hand of God does not directly cause rain or lightning at a particular place and time.  There may be the Hand of God at work in a more indirect manner, but that is not consistent with a lot of religious phenomenological explanations over the centuries.  The integrity of religious doctrine is suspect, indicating all of religion may be a fraud.  That integrity is not improved by the fact that religious doctrine is preeched in translation.  Translation is a tricky business even when the text is a bedtime story; when the text deals with life and death, salvation and sin, the translator's burden ought to be unbearable.  I don't understand how anyone short of a Saint can be qualified to translate religious material.

I have more respect for religions that follow certain criteria: they make no attempt to actively convert outsiders, they have little or no a history of glaring errors when viewed through the lens of modern science, and they can be viewed as a form of psychology and philosophy rather than an objective explanation of the world.

Why should I believe in God on faith?  What is so compelling about an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent creature?  Why is that less of a strain on the imagination than the concept that the big bang was a chance occurrence that created spacetime... and either this current universe is the first one ever, or the Kth one, or this expansion/contraction cycle has been going on forever?  Either way, God or pure science, there are incomprehensible elements in the explanation.  The difference is that while scientists may accept the big bang on faith, they will shake that faith if presented with enough evidence to the contrary.

If any religion is valid, how do I know which one(s) are and which aren't?

It hasn't come up for years, but if a religious person asks me my religion, my response may be that I'm an atheist.  Most of the time I don't want to get into a discussion about it, and claiming atheism instead of agnosticism is more likely to shut down that line of inquiry -- precisely because atheism makes less sense, is more pig-headed, and is therefore harder to convince someone to give up because they have an emotional attachment to it.  That doesn't mean it's always easier to convert agnostics, because some have thought a lot about religion.  Many, however, are agnostic because they've never carefully considered theology... and an evangelist will pounce on that potential.
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doczinn

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« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2005, 09:34:36 PM »
Tyme, you make a lot of sense.

The closest I get to religion, despite being raised in a very Christian household, is Objectivism.
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griz

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« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2005, 02:20:18 AM »
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In that case, griz, I must resort to bribery or brute force.  Which will it be?
Cheesy That turn the other cheek thing is tempting, but I think I'll go with bribery. Lucky for you my price is low. Wink
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BrokenPaw

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« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2005, 04:03:05 AM »
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they make no attempt to actively convert outsiders, they have little or no a history of glaring errors when viewed through the lens of modern science, and they can be viewed as a form of psychology and philosophy rather than an objective explanation of the world.
This is how I view my beliefs.  Since there's nothing in my system that requires anyone else to believe as I do, there's precious little need for me to go out and try to convince others that they must do so.  

I believe that there is a Divine that shaped the world, but the details of whether it took seven days or seven billion days are unimportant to my philosophy.  

I try to live as well as I may, and my beliefs provide me with a moral framework in which to do that.  So it is more of a philosophy and a way of life than it is a religion.

My apologies to anyone I left hanging unanswered in this thread; I had sudden family business to attend to (and recover from) over the past several days.  It's not easy to help a family (my in-laws) through burying their son.  It got me thinking, and later on I'll probably post a thread on the subject.

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griz

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« Reply #105 on: September 26, 2005, 07:27:43 AM »
How about an IOU for a cold can of Mountain Dew whenever we meet up? If that's too much I can negotiate.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #106 on: September 26, 2005, 02:38:58 PM »
Quote from: GoRon
Actually I believe God did create evil.  In the Bible he so much as says he did.  In Isaiah somewhere he says this.
RE:  Isaiah 45

This may seem like a cheap out, but I believe it is significant that many versions of the Bible translate the word "evil" there as "calamity" or "disaster."  You may recall that griz refferred to hurricanes earlier as an evil.  The word evil is sometimes used in English to mean a misfortune that is not morally evil.  Perhaps the same is the case with this passage of Hebrew.

Of course, all depends upon an accurate translation of the text, not what I want the passage to mean.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #107 on: September 26, 2005, 03:25:19 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: GoRon
Actually I believe God did create evil.  In the Bible he so much as says he did.  In Isaiah somewhere he says this.
RE:  Isaiah 45

This may seem like a cheap out, but I believe it is significant that many versions of the Bible translate the word "evil" there as "calamity" or "disaster."  You may recall that griz refferred to hurricanes earlier as an evil.  The word evil is used in English to mean a misfortune that is not morally evil.  Perhaps the same is the case with this passage of Hebrew.

Of course, all depends upon an accurate translation of the text, not what I want the passage to mean.
What the text actually says is (my translation):
"The fashioner of light and maker of darkness, the maker of peace and the creator of bad, I am G-d the doer of all these things."  The Hebrew word "RA" means bad as well as evil.
The Ivry Teitch (which is a translation into Yiddish that interpolates from classic commentaries) translates it (my transltaiton): "I am the one who makes peace for the saintly and creates bad things for the wicked."
Other commentators (Ibn Ezra) mention the duality of peace vs war, light vs darkness, etc.  It is a comment on the oneness of G-d, as opposed to, say, Zoroastriansim that posited that the world is divided between forces of Good and forces of Evil.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #108 on: September 26, 2005, 05:10:16 PM »
Quote from: Tyme
Through science, we now know the causes of most sickness, we understand weather enough to know that the hand of God does not directly cause rain or lightning at a particular place and time.
Though sickness and weather phenomena may operate according to obvious natural laws, this in no way means that supernatural forces such as demons cannot cause sickness or madness, in some instances, or that a divine being cannot intervene in the weather.  Nor does it invalidate miraculous healings or ressurections.



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The integrity of religious doctrine is suspect, indicating all of religion may be a fraud.
Suspect according to whom?  And which religious doctrine?  



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That integrity is not improved by the fact that religious doctrine is preeched in translation.  Translation is a tricky business even when the text is a bedtime story; when the text deals with life and death, salvation and sin, the translator's burden ought to be unbearable.  I don't understand how anyone short of a Saint can be qualified to translate religious material.
The many English-language versions of the Bible indicate that at least some religious people share your concern with accuracy, even if others may be concerned with making the Bible say what they wish it to say.  But religious doctrine is not always preached via translation.  Even if it is, this is a silly objection.  Do you really think you could stand before God, and tell Him that you didn't even care enough to learn Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Hindi (whatever), so you decided not to follow Him?  



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I have more respect for religions that follow certain criteria: they make no attempt to actively convert outsiders, they have little or no a history of glaring errors when viewed through the lens of modern science, and they can be viewed as a form of psychology and philosophy rather than an objective explanation of the world.
Which religions do you mean?  Also, I wonder why you object to proselytizing, and whether you have considered that science might in some instances draw wrong conclusions.  


 
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Why should I believe in God on faith?
You shouldn't.  You should believe there is a God, because it requires far less faith than atheism.  It is far more plausible.



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What is so compelling about an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent creature?  Why is that less of a strain on the imagination than the concept that the big bang was a chance occurrence that created spacetime... and either this current universe is the first one ever, or the Kth one, or this expansion/contraction cycle has been going on forever?
Because such materialism is anti-scientific.  It does not comport with what we see around us.  It does not adequately explain the complex natural processes and forms of life around us (including us).  We do not expect machines to just happen; nor should we expect living organisms to slowly develop over time.  By the way, God is by definition not a creature.



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Either way, God or pure science, there are incomprehensible elements in the explanation.  The difference is that while scientists may accept the big bang on faith, they will shake that faith if presented with enough evidence to the contrary.
Do you think so?  Do you think that scientists are interested in the facts, while religious folk are interested in - what, exactly?  Do you not recognize that some scientists might be as emotionally attached to, or as professionally invested in, scientific theories as a priest might be to religion?  Do you not further recognize that of the great number of those trained in science, very few are really testing big bang/evolution theory, or are in a position to know its accuracy?  

You imply that religion is blind faith, but there are many who have rejected beliefs they once held.  Jamis Jockey attested to that on the first page of this thread.  



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If any religion is valid, how do I know which one(s) are and which aren't?
As with scientific theories, the claims of religions can be tested against the world around us.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #109 on: September 26, 2005, 05:12:44 PM »
Thanks, Rabbi.  I heard you guys were good for always just quoting some other rabbi.  Smiley

Care to give us your thoughts on the subject of God creating evil?
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #110 on: September 26, 2005, 05:26:23 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Thanks, Rabbi.  I heard you guys were good for always just quoting some other rabbi.  Smiley

Care to give us your thoughts on the subject of God creating evil?
Well the first thing to say is the Ibn Ezra was not "some other rabbi" but a great scholar and saint.
We have a belief in something called "mesora" which is a tradition handed down.  Those who came before us were closer to the mesora than we are and therefore speak with more authority.  This runs counter to Protestantism.  So I dont think I could be much help to you.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #111 on: September 26, 2005, 07:57:16 PM »
Rabbi, my comment was not meant to insult anyone, and I think (hope) you realize that.  I do appreciate your input.

Just so you know, though, I don't consider myself a Protestant, as I do not hold my beliefs in protest of the Catholic Church.  Also, this conversation is not limited to Christian ideas.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #112 on: September 27, 2005, 01:10:39 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
....What the text actually says is (my translation):
"The fashioner of light and maker of darkness, the maker of peace and the creator of bad, I am G-d the doer of all these things."  The Hebrew word "RA" means bad as well as evil.
The Ivry Teitch (which is a translation into Yiddish that interpolates from classic commentaries) translates it (my transltaiton): "I am the one who makes peace for the saintly and creates bad things for the wicked."
Other commentators (Ibn Ezra) mention the duality of peace vs war, light vs darkness, etc.  It is a comment on the oneness of G-d, as opposed to, say, Zoroastriansim that posited that the world is divided between forces of Good and forces of Evil.
If I can expand on this a little, my opinion is we're discussing two different concepts of 'evil' here. The text itself is contrasting opposites, first light vs darkness and then peace vs evil.

Evil as wickedness or sin of course is not the opposite of peace.

Evil as war, famine or unrest is, and if that is one's definition of evil, than I'd have to agree that God certainly at times makes it.
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« Reply #113 on: September 27, 2005, 04:46:04 AM »
Quote from: fistful
Rabbi, my comment was not meant to insult anyone, and I think (hope) you realize that.  I do appreciate your input.

Just so you know, though, I don't consider myself a Protestant, as I do not hold my beliefs in protest of the Catholic Church.  Also, this conversation is not limited to Christian ideas.
I use Protestant in a broad sense here.  It is certainly not limited to Christians of the Protestant movement.  Reform Judaism is basically a Protestant religion in the sense I mean.
One of the goals of the Protestant movement was to remove the layers of commentary and history between Man and God, between the reader and the text.  All commentary was held to be merely distracting from the Biblical text.
That is not a Jewish approach, is my point.

On "evil" I'd like to see a working definition of Evil first.
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Strings

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« Reply #114 on: September 27, 2005, 07:54:21 AM »
EEP!!!! Y'aal need to quit setting me up to agree with Fistful here...

>Though sickness and weather phenomena may operate according to obvious natural laws, this in no way means that supernatural forces such as demons cannot cause sickness or madness, in some instances, or that a divine being cannot intervene in the weather.  Nor does it invalidate miraculous healings or ressurections.<


Yep... you're right. The weather being the best example: HOW often is the weatherman right?

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #115 on: September 27, 2005, 08:29:59 PM »
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EEP!!!! Y'aal need to quit setting me up to agree with Fistful here...
[Darth Vader voice]
Ah, Hunter, you feel the pull.  Soon, you will be singing from an old, weathered hymnal with me on Sunday mornings.  Come to the old-time religion, Hunter Rose.  It is your destiny.
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Strings

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« Reply #116 on: September 27, 2005, 08:52:07 PM »
ok... THAT was bad, Fistful. Better mention it in your next confession... Wink

mfree

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« Reply #117 on: September 28, 2005, 04:16:39 AM »
My unique brand of paganism leaves me classified as a polyfacet monotheist. One great "force" with many faces, or personalities if you will, emobodied as gods, goddesses, demi, etc.

HKUSP45

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« Reply #118 on: September 28, 2005, 02:13:22 PM »
I believe the universe was painted, just not signed.

I can't imagine how anyone could look at the complexities and coincidences in your daily life and nature and not believe it was created.

I also think religion in general is an insult to the artist.

Just enjoy the gift, don't thank a guy who didn't really want it in the first place. Think of it like this:

If I could create it and wanted worship .... why wouldn't I write my name in the stars?

If I could create it and didn't want worship .... why would I ask for it through the people I created centuries after doing so?

IMHO all religions are wrong; we were created to enjoy the party, not to thank the host.

That's not to say live your life as if there are no consequences.
Heres my take:
Life is a nifty toy ... but fragile.
Everyone I meet has one just like mine ... only a little different.
I want everyone to keep theirs in it's current state, unless they let me touch it.
When I do touch it, it changes a little ... for better or worse.
I'm not in the habit of breaking peoples toys and won't allow mine to be intentionally broken.
I love to play with others toys and just as I've occasionally chipped a few (and had mine chipped) I've always been genuinely sorry.

This is my take on life, its weird and it works for me.

There is IMHO no "one guy" that gave me this toy, only because, to me, he made all the current explanations so improbable as to be untrue.

That's my take.

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #119 on: October 01, 2005, 06:53:59 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
I use Protestant in a broad sense here.  It is certainly not limited to Christians of the Protestant movement.
Well, perhaps it should be.  The term was appropriate in an era when Rome dominated Christendom, but this is no longer the case.  My beliefs are based on the Bible and the teachings of the religious movements (such as the charismatic, Evangelical Free and conserative Wesleyan/Nazarene/Holiness) in which I have been involved.  Catholicism, or opposition to its teachings, are peripheral at best.  To say my beliefs are protestant or reformed implies that I reformed them from something, and this is not the case.  If one is Lutheran, or of some other denomination which was involved in the controversy, those terms might be appropriate.

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One of the goals of the Protestant movement was to remove the layers of commentary and history between Man and God, between the reader and the text.  All commentary was held to be merely distracting from the Biblical text.
I don't think so, but I have not studied the Reformation in depth.  If I understand correctly, the goal was to discard commentary that did not conform to scripture - sola scriptura.  In your terms, Rabbi, the current mesora was perceived to be corrupt, necessitating a return to the older mesora of Rabbi Paul, the patristics (some of them) and others.  I believe both sides used the patristic writings and later theologians to buttress their positions.

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On "evil" I'd like to see a working definition of Evil first.
I dont know about a working definition, but I think what were debating is whether God causes murder, rape, dishonesty, ranch dressing or other evil acts.  I'm not sure if we're including hurricanes and cancer.  Christianity would class these as a result of evil.
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Strings

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« Reply #120 on: October 01, 2005, 07:06:37 AM »
>but I think what were debating is whether God causes murder, rape, dishonesty, ranch dressing or other evil acts<

Not so much the evil acts themselves, but the entire concept of evil itself. Maybe ala Time Bandits?

stevelyn

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« Reply #121 on: October 01, 2005, 08:41:20 PM »
Former christian. Current atheist-leaning agnostic.
It's easier for me to believe we were created by a civilization little people zipping across the universe in flying saucers than to have been the brainchild of a single invisible entity.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #122 on: October 02, 2005, 09:13:37 AM »
Quote from: stevelyn
It's easier for me to believe we were created by a civilization little people zipping across the universe in flying saucers than to have been the brainchild of a single invisible entity.
And those little people came from where?

Quote from: Hunter Rose
>but I think what were debating is whether God causes murder, rape, dishonesty, ranch dressing or other evil acts<

Not so much the evil acts themselves, but the entire concept of evil itself.
Right, but I'm trying to draw a distinction between evil acts and evil thoughts; and things like disease and natural disasters.
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Strings

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« Reply #123 on: October 02, 2005, 11:49:20 AM »
>Right, but I'm trying to draw a distinction between evil acts and evil thoughts; and things like disease and natural disasters.<

Hmmm... that IS kinda tough, isn't it? Maybe base it on wether the initiator of the event has knowledge of morality or not?

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« Reply #124 on: October 02, 2005, 11:53:45 AM »
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: Hunter Rose
>but I think what were debating is whether God causes murder, rape, dishonesty, ranch dressing or other evil acts<

Not so much the evil acts themselves, but the entire concept of evil itself.
Right, but I'm trying to draw a distinction between evil acts and evil thoughts; and things like disease and natural disasters.
It seems to me that G-d causes evil acts about the same way that guns cause crime.
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