Anyone good at making bread?

[Nitrogen]

For some odd reason, I've decided I want to learn to make bread.

I made my first batch last night, which had a yeasty flavor, and didn't rise enough.

Any of you dudes or dudettes have some tips for a newbie breadmaker?

My main two questions:
First, how do you know that the bread has risen enough?  I was warned not to let it rise "too much" but how's a good way to tell?

Second, How do I know that it's been kneaded enough?  Part of my problem the first time is probbaly that I under-kneaded it.  Is there an easy way to tell?

[Manedwolf]

Zojirushi bread machine, $199.

[Racehorse]

I'll follow on to this with a question. Who knows how to get the thick, crunchy crust that artisan bread has? Is there a way to do it without a big brick oven?

[K Frame]

Bread machine isn't a bad idea. I made all of my own bread for quite a few years using a bread machine; also made some by the old ways.

Bread machine is on its last legs, but I know have a KitchenAide stand mixer which makes kneading a simply task.

What was the recipe that you used? Give me the ingredients list and steps and I'll work it over for you.

Rising is easy. Pretty much let the dough double in bulk. That can be tough to tell in a bowl. Alton Brown uses round lexan containers with straight sides and puts a rubber band around the container at the point where the dough will have doubled.

The purpose of kneading is to form the elastic gluten structure in the bread. That allows it to stretch without tearing. You use those properties to tell if you've kneaded enough...

Take a small ball of dough, press it flat, and then pick it up and start stretching it out from the center with your fingertips, as if you're making the world's smallest pizza. What you want to see is the "windowpane" effect, where the dough is elastic enough to stretch VERY thin to the point of easily letting light through, but without tearing. If it tears before you can see that thin membrane, you've got more kneading to do.

I LOVE a good yeasty tasting bread, so that's certainly not a drawback for me.

Eventually you'll get to the point where you'll simply be able to pinch the dough and tell whether you have kneaded it enough.

[K Frame]

I'll follow on to this with a question. Who knows how to get the thick, crunchy crust that artisan bread has? Is there a way to do it without a big brick oven?

Use little to no oil, a large baking stone, and mist the top with water at least once during cooking in a very hot oven.

[Brad Johnson]

You can also slow-rise it in the fridge over a couple of days, then eggwash the tops.  Open rising it so the outer surface dries slightly will also give you the crusty outterds.

The more you knead it, the better the texture it will have (see Mike's gluten explanation above).  Also, don't try to force the rise.  Put it in a warm place - 75 to 85 deg F - and let the yeast do its thing.  Leave it be until its about doubled, though you can cook it sooner if you like a heavier bread.

Another vote for a bread machine, though.  Flour, salt, sugar, yeast, "Start".  Three to four hours later, remove fresh loaf, let cool slightly, and enjoy.

Brad

[Manedwolf]

A good bread machine, mind you. The Zojirushi I mentioned is one of the best. If you get the $39 one from the discount store, you're likely to get comparably poor bread out of it.

[K Frame]

I got a Red Star branded machine for $10-$15, and it made incredible bread for me for years...

Of course, it was a lot more expensive than that originally...

Montgomery Ward was going out of business, so they had the machine for something like 60% off retail price.

Then I had some leftover Amex Gift Cards from when I left my old job.

All I had to do was chip in a few bux to make up the difference.

At one point I was making enough bread that I was buying flour in 25 pound sacks and my yeast and 2 pound bags.

If you think you're going to keep up with the bread making, consider buying at least your yeast at Costco or BJs or Sam's Club. You'll pay about $4 for 2 pounds of yeast, whereas you can easily pay $8 for 7 OUNCES of "bread machine" yeast at the store. INCREDIBLE rip off.

Oh, and all that bullflop about "You MUST put the stuff in the machine in X order, you MUST weigh down to the 1 millionth of a gram, you MUST NEVER let the yeast touch the liquid..."

Crock o'crap for the most part.

When I still use my bread machine, I mix the sugar and warm the water in the microwave then put the yeast in to bloom.

Then I put the dry ingredients in the machine along with the oil (if I use oil), turn it on, then pour in the water yeast mixture.

[Nitrogen]

Wow, great responses so far.
Here's the recipie I used.  It was recommended to me, because I love Outback's bread so much:

Serves: 10-16
Prep. Time: 3:00

(3) .25 oz. pkts. active dry yeast
1 1/2 cup 110 degree water - divided
1 Tbls. granulated sugar
1/2 cup dark molasses
1 Tbls. salt
2 Tbls. vegetable oil
2 cups rye flour
up to 3 cups all-purpose flour



-Dissolve yeast in 1/2 cup warm water; stir in sugar; allow to rest for 6 minutes or until bubbly.
-Combine dissolved yeast, 1 cup warm water, molasses, salt, oil and rye flour in a large bowl; beat until smooth.
-Work in enough all-purpose flour until dough is smooth, pliable, and elastic, not sticky.
-Knead dough for 4 minutes.
-Place dough in a large bowl, cover with a damp cloth, and allow to rise in a warm place until doubled in size.
-Punch dough down.
-Divide and shape dough into 2 equal-sized loaves and place on a greased and cornmeal-dusted cookie sheet.
-Cover dough with a damp cloth and allow to rise in a warm place until doubled in size.
-Bake loaves in a 375 degree oven for 30 minutes, or until crust makes hollow sound when tapped on.

I don't have a breadmaker; but I do have a great mixer with a dough hook.  Part of the reason I didn't get a breadmaker is I want to learn all the mechanics of it; I'm somewhat of a geek that way.

This was the first time I used the mixer and dough hook, though.  The dough kept sticking to the hook, though, so I ended up finishing the kneading by hand.  I probably didn't do it enough.

The other issue might have been that there's really no "warm" place in the house.  I don't run the heat that much, and it was only about 70˚ in the house last night, so I went by time, and not volume.  Maybe I'll get one of my space heaters out, and start it running in a closet for an hour.

[Brad Johnson]

The other issue might have been that there's really no "warm" place in the house.

Turn on your oven for twnty or thirty seconds. Repeat every half hour or so.  Just enough to heat begin heating the coil.  The residual heat should keep the oven at about the right temp.  You can also do the same thing in your oven by putting a small pan of boiling water on the top rack and the dough on the bottom.  Don't put the dough over the water or you run the chance of overheating it.

Brad

[Fly320s]

Yeast has a short shelf life.  Make sure you are using good yeast by testing it in warm water.

Pour a tablespoon of yeast (or 1 packet) into 1/4 cup of warm water (110*F - about normal hot water from the tap).  Yet the yeast sit for 5 minutes.  You should see bubbling and foaming.  If not, your yeast is dead.

If it works, use that yeast and water in your recipe, but deduct it from the totals required in the recipe.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I don't have a breadmaker; but I do have a great mixer with a dough hook.  Part of the reason I didn't get a breadmaker is I want to learn all the mechanics of it; I'm somewhat of a geek that way.

This was the first time I used the mixer and dough hook, though.  The dough kept sticking to the hook, though, so I ended up finishing the kneading by hand.  I probably didn't do it enough.

Kitchen Aid stand mixer?  That's what I use to make my bread dough.  Works like a champ, just throw in the ingredients and hit the switch.  2 minutes later I have fully mixed and kneaded bread dough, all ready to rise.

Use bread machine yeast.  Make sure it's fresh.  Maybe add a little more yeast than the recipe calls for.  Only let the bread rise once, regardless of what the recipe says (dough always rises well the first time, but trying to rise it a second or third time is pushing your luck).

A steamy oven is the key to crusty bread.  Put a smallish shallow pan of water in the bottom of the oven when you start to preheat it, and spray the inside walls of the oven periodically.

Crazy good sandwich rolls:
http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Soft-Onion-Sandwich-Rolls/Detail.aspx

Excellent Italian bread:
http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Italian-Bread-Baked-on-a-Pizza-Stone/Detail.aspx

[Scout26]

Another vote for a good Bread Machine.  Lots of mixes and recipes out there.  Ours gets used 3-6 times per week.

[K Frame]

OK, very good reason why your bread didn't rise very much -- rye flour.

Rye flour has zero gluten producing ability, so when it comes time for the yeast to work, you've REALLY got to have a good knead going, and you've got to really give the yeast time to work.

You can give the flour a boost by adding something called vital wheat gluten. It can be kind of hard to find, but it's normally in the baking aisle with the flour. Essentially it gives denser breads a boost of gluten.

"The dough kept sticking to the hook"

Try spraying the hook with PAM or something similar. You can also use a few moments of a higher speed to fling the dough off the hook.

My KitchenAide came with warnings, though, that the dough hook was never to be used with anything other than speed 2.

[Hugh Damright]

I use a mix from the health food store called "arrowhead mills multigrain bread mix". Nothing else seems to compare with it.

[Brad Johnson]

You can use rye flour, but you have to cut it with regular bread flour at about a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio (regular:rye).  Rise times will go up.

Brad

[Nitrogen]

Awesome tips, folks.

I'm going to try redoing this recipe with only one cup of rye, and adding more all purpose flour.

I'll let you know how it comes out when I do it.

[thebaldguy]

Try using a good bread flour; it works better than all purpose flour. I use the bread machine to knead the bread using the dough cycle. I then put it into an oiled bowl, cover, and let rise for 2 hours or until double. The oven with the light on is enough warmth. Shape into rolls or loaves, cover, and let rise a few more hours. Brush with water or a 50-50 egg white/yolk for a crunchy crust. Bake at 425 to get good browning, and place a pie tin with water in the oven to help keep the bread moist. I have good results freezing the loaves/rolls before rising. I let the frozen loaves rise for 6-8 hours and bake.

[Fly320s]

Yep, bread flour has more gluten than all-purpose flour.  Gluten gives bread it's sticky, stretchy, chewiness.

[bdutton]

I have a fairly simple bread machine which I use to kneed and first rise the bread I make.  I transfer to a regular bread pan and rise in teh oven for 25 minutes at 240 and then bake for 25 at 350 (only if it has risen enough).

Ingredients:

1 cup hot tap water (just barely above one cup actually)
2 tablespoons butter
1.5 tablespoons cream or half and half.
2 teaspoons salt.

Mix well until butter is melted.  Het in microwave if necessary.

put that in the bread machine.

add 3.5 cups of bread flour
put a small indentation in the middle of the flour and add 2 teaspoons of bread machine/fast rise yeast.

Put machine on appropriate mixing selection (usually mix/rise total of 1:30).

[lupinus]

My trusty recipie-

16 ounces bread flour
7 ounces water
3 ounces wine
2 teaspons kosher salt
1 tablespoon extra virgin olive oil
1 teaspoon of yeast

Take everything, throw it in a kitchen aid stand mixer with the dough hook and turn it on slow to combine and then up as high as your mixer can handle without dancing off the counter..  Let it go for about 20 minutes to get a really good gluton formation.  Transfer this to another bowl which has been oiled lightly cover with a towle and toss it into the oven with a dish of hot water.  Let rise to twice its size, punch down, repeat three times.

On the last one punch it down and form into a loaf of whatever shape you desire, just remember that it will rise as it cooks so take that into acount.  I find that flatter shapes make a better product.  Place on a pizza peal with some cornmeal and spritz the top with water slash the top and slide onto a pizza stone in a preheated 400 oven for 50-60 minutes.  If you have a food thermometor you are looking for 205 degrees.  When you get good you will know how to knock o nthe loaf and tell its done lol.

Place on a cooling rack for at least 30 minutes.  This is VERY important, do not slice to soon.  It's important for the bread esspecialy the crust, if you slice it to soon all the steam comes out and you get a very crumby brittle crust.

You can do some variations on this basic recipie.
-For rye, whole wheat, etc.  Use these flours in a 3:1 ratio of bread to your selected flour.  I esspeialy like semolina but you may want to add a touch more water when using it.
-Add one ounce of water and use just two ounces of wine, but red for an interesting flavor and aroma.
-A handful of chopped kalamata olives lightly kneaded into the dough is wonderful.  After the initial kneading let the dough rise once, punch down lightly, and knead in the olives.
-More oil and less kneading will make a softer bread while less oil and more kneading will make a chewier more rustic bread.