Author Topic: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom  (Read 5709 times)

roo_ster

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New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« on: August 29, 2011, 01:35:00 PM »
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/08/28/new-blue-nightmare-clarence-thomas-and-the-amendment-of-doom/
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/29/110829fa_fact_toobin?currentPage=all

A look at what Justice Thomas has done while a Supreme Court Justice, how he has flown under the leftist radar, and how he might be the man to bring down leftist progressive government.  

Well worth your time.



« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 01:51:07 PM by roo_ster »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 02:19:48 PM »
Thanks for reminding me. I saw something about this on the cover of the New Yorker or some other rag, and it just tickled me pink. The guy can't win! For years now, they said he had no opinion at all, just dancing a soft-shoe for his Republican masters. And now they're after him for actually having an agenda?

Love it.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 08:01:31 PM »
Clarence Thomas, IMO, has one drawback as a justice.

He lacks Scalia's writing talent and incisive wit. While I think Scalia is a truly evil individual (unlike Thomas), there's no way to deny that he's better at putting his view forward, even though it's often less intellectually solid. There's a reason Scalia wrote Heller.

That is sad.
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seeker_two

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 09:42:50 PM »
Thanks for reminding me. I saw something about this on the cover of the New Yorker or some other rag, and it just tickled me pink.

I think this is what you're looking for.....

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/29/110829fa_fact_toobin?mbid=gnep
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

RocketMan

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 10:08:22 PM »
Very enlightening and interesting reads, roo_ster.  Thank you for posting them.
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Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

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TommyGunn

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 11:20:49 PM »
Clarence Thomas, IMO, has one drawback as a justice.

He lacks Scalia's writing talent and incisive wit. While I think Scalia is a truly evil individual (unlike Thomas), there's no way to deny that he's better at putting his view forward, even though it's often less intellectually solid. There's a reason Scalia wrote Heller.
That is sad.
???

Scalia, evil?  What the---

And why DID he write Heller?  It was the correct interpretation of the 2A. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2011, 12:02:35 AM »
Scalia, evil.

Reasoning: I believe Scalia is wise enough to understand, correctly, what the correct interpretation of the Constitution is. He chooses to avoid implementing it in some cases, possibly to avoid political upheaval or social disorder, or perhaps because he favors certain government policies too much to overturn them. Observe in this vein him voting with the majority in Gonzales v. Raich.

Or take, for example, the part of the Heller dicta where he does not simply refuse to elaborate on issues not related directly to the Heller case, he dives right in and states:

Quote
Although we do not undertake an  exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the  Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be  taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the  possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or
laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places  such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

We also recognize another important limitation on the  right to keep and carry arms.  Miller  said, as we have  explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those  “in common use at the time.”

This is pure poison, right there.
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brimic

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2011, 10:21:14 AM »
After spending a hour reading through all of the links, I slept very well last night :cool:
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TommyGunn

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 10:45:41 AM »
Scalia, evil.

Reasoning: I believe Scalia is wise enough to understand, correctly, what the correct interpretation of the Constitution is. He chooses to avoid implementing it in some cases, possibly to avoid political upheaval or social disorder, or perhaps because he favors certain government policies too much to overturn them. Observe in this vein him voting with the majority in Gonzales v. Raich.

Or take, for example, the part of the Heller dicta where he does not simply refuse to elaborate on issues not related directly to the Heller case, he dives right in and states:
Quote
Although we do not undertake an  exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the  Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be  taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the  possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or
laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places  such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

We also recognize another important limitation on the  right to keep and carry arms.  Miller  said, as we have  explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those  “in common use at the time.”

This is pure poison, right there.

Well, while I agree that section is bad, I am not sure I'd say that makes Scalia "evil."   But "evil" is a term I use rather sparingly (usually) --- usually using it to refer to people like Jeffrey Dahmer.
The Miller Case was a bad one and usually misunderstood.  Neither Miller or the co-defendant were in court when the solicitor general made his case before SCOTUS, and there really was no "decision," per se; SCOTUS remanded the case back to the lower court from which it sprang, and where the govt. had previously lost badly and had had their collective arses reamed.
But, Miller died and the other defendant went missing, so the case essentially remained "unresolved,"  or in legal limbo.  However, the 1934 NFA somehow remained intact since SCOTUS never decided it was unconstitutional.
Many people think it upheld the NFA, which isn't true, but neither did it knock it down....so three quarters of a century later, here we are.
IMHO despite its flaws I think Heller turned out as well as could be expected.   If we hope to dispense with the NFA we have a LOT of work ahead of us and I think we're lucky when we maintain what we have.  
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longeyes

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 10:53:09 AM »
I think Micro has a point.  There is something in Scalia, despite his brilliance, despite his general integrity, that makes him set aside too much wiggle room and hence the possibility of future mischief.  Perhaps that something is...political expediency.
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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 11:03:42 AM »
I think Micro has a point.  There is something in Scalia, despite his brilliance, despite his general integrity, that makes him set aside too much wiggle room and hence the possibility of future mischief.  Perhaps that something is...political expediency.

I am not disputing that, but the truth is that I hardly think that attitude is unique to either Scalia, The Supreme Court, or, unfortunatly, even Washington DC. 
In a way, it's the reverse side of the "coin" of judicial activism -- where judges make the law mean what they want it to be rather than what it was originally intended to be....or maybe just another iteration of it..... :mad:
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AJ Dual

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 12:59:03 PM »
I think Micro has a point.  There is something in Scalia, despite his brilliance, despite his general integrity, that makes him set aside too much wiggle room and hence the possibility of future mischief.  Perhaps that something is...political expediency.

Unlike Thomas, Scalia, despite having some vague originalist leanings, is a big believer in Stare Decisis and what some see as political expediency, I see as a simple desire to see his decisions stand, and guide future courts.

Rather than some evil elitism that made him afraid to give the hoi-poli too much 2A rights, I think he waffled as he did to try and protect his decision in Heller from some future Leftist/Living Constitution-packed court from overturning it entirely. If he'd struck away GCA '68 and NFA '34 in one fell swoop, I certainly agree it's reasonable to fear that some future court might be foaming at the mouth to reverse Heller.

While some may not agree with it, there's a fair amount of legal scholarship that believes a radical court that flip flops Left-Right, Collectivist/Individualist, Originalist/Interpretist every generation will fracture the separation of powers, and ultimately the Republic.

While we may not like it, and may not agree with it, to classify it as "evil", is probably the natural frustrations of youthful exuberance and zeal on Micro's part.  And I think it's a reflection of the greater struggle and debate between Conservatives and Libertarians over strategies, third party candidates, Ron Paul hot-buttons, and the entire dichotomy behind how both view the notion of "winning battles vs. winning wars" differently. Despite their otherwise nominal alignment in the struggle for natural rights and rational individualism. =)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 01:02:12 PM by AJ Dual »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 07:30:02 PM »
Please do not misunderstand my argument. I do not mean to say that Scalia should have flipped out like a ninja, done a somersault over the court building, and then flown off to defeat socialism, and that he's evil to refuse to do that. Naturally, the scope of Heller limited the judges to only resolving the issue that was at hand in the specific case. This isn't the argument that I'm making here. But he's actually decided to go beyond the scope of the case – not just deciding not to overthrow the NFA, which was never really going to happen but deciding to actually bloviate about how constitutionally awesome the NFA is.

The difference between the two men is even more evident in McDonald where Thomas goes for the Privileges and Immunities interpretation (probably more constitutionally correct) and Scalia goes for the less-disruptive intepretation.

This has little to do with conservatism vs. libertarianism. Both Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia are conservatives. I doubt there are any libertarians in the court except maybe when Gura is giving an oral argument.
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Scout26

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 09:19:37 PM »
Keep in mind that 1) they had to get Kennedy on board to have a majority in Heller and that 2) by building 2A case law through a series a cases makes it harder for future courts to undo said tangle of cases because 3) Scalia is a belieiver in stare decisis.  That's why he was was willing to use the easy road to incorporate the 2A in McDonald, know that it would create the follow-on cases that we currently see working our way through the various courts.  See Gene Hoffman at Cal-guns for a run down of the cases working their way through the various states and circuits.

Yes, I know there were some that were disappointed that Scalia didn't come out at Heller with "2A HELLSTOTHEYEAH!!! Machine Guns and Nukes for Everybody !!!111eleventy!!!" in his dictia and throughout years of previous rulings by completely trashing Slaugtherhouse and other longstanding high-profile cases.

He wants to change the rulings but do them in such a way that they will with stand the test of time.   The article is correct, Thomas shows the future direction of the cases, while Scalia writes the dicita that turns the battleship(1) in that direction. 



(1) To turn a battleship you can't just jerk the wheel over, you'll snap the rudder off, if you do. There are things called "trim tabs" that are small aileron's that move in the direction of turn first.  These get the water flowing in the right direction, so that you can begin to move the rudder without snapping it off, leaving you adrift and out of control. 

Micro you might want to think about that when leading your movement.   It's okay to swing for the fences, but hitting a single is not "evil".  And let's reserve that word for things like the Holocaust, Hitler, Stalin, the Khmer Rouge and their ilk.
 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 10:43:52 PM »
Happily I'm not planning to lead anything other than a college libertarian study group. Mostly on account how it won't lead itself despite my best effort.
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roo_ster

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2011, 07:49:16 AM »
Happily I'm not planning to lead anything other than a college libertarian study group. Mostly on account how it won't lead itself despite my best effort.

Still herding cats, eh?
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roo_ster

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AJ Dual

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2011, 05:31:28 PM »
Please do not misunderstand my argument. I do not mean to say that Scalia should have flipped out like a ninja, done a somersault over the court building, and then flown off to defeat socialism, and that he's evil to refuse to do that. Naturally, the scope of Heller limited the judges to only resolving the issue that was at hand in the specific case. This isn't the argument that I'm making here. But he's actually decided to go beyond the scope of the case – not just deciding not to overthrow the NFA, which was never really going to happen but deciding to actually bloviate about how constitutionally awesome the NFA is.

The difference between the two men is even more evident in McDonald where Thomas goes for the Privileges and Immunities interpretation (probably more constitutionally correct) and Scalia goes for the less-disruptive intepretation.

This has little to do with conservatism vs. libertarianism. Both Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia are conservatives. I doubt there are any libertarians in the court except maybe when Gura is giving an oral argument.

When you use words like "evil" you run the risk of having your argument misunderstood.  ;)

I get what your saying, that you're angry about this:

Quote
Although we do not undertake an  exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the  Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be  taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the  possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or
laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places  such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

We also recognize another important limitation on the  right to keep and carry arms.  Miller  said, as we have  explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those  “in common use at the time.”

You feel he didn't need to add that.

We have no idea of the realities he faced behind the scenes to get the majority, namely as many suspect, appeasing Justice Kennedy, as Scout points out. And as Thomas' P&I assent shows, all sorts of partial assents and dissents are possible if the justices are so inclined.

And many believe the part above in bold is a trap he laid, sandbagging himself and the appeasement verbiage he placed there intentionally. Justice Scalia knows full well that the test used of weapons "in common use at the time" under the Miller case that upheld NFA '34 was military weaponry, (a short barreled shotgun not being on the ToE of the U.S. Military during the intra-war period, it would have been interesting had Miller been caught with a machine gun...) and that once the case reached the SCOTUS, there was no one there to make an argument on behalf of Miller.

Disagree with him politically or legally, the judges know every word they, or their clerks, write matters. And while he appeared to say that the decision upholds existing prohibitions, he merely stated that nothing in Heller should be taken as an automatic voiding or the casting of doubt, of any gun control laws, or categories of "restricted persons" on the books to date. That's vastly different from saying it actually upholds them. And that Heller does nothing to bar the door to any future challenges.

He knew what he was doing.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2011, 09:18:22 AM »
What? I am not allowed to call the system evil because it's not quite as evil as the Nazis? Is that the standard now?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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TommyGunn

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2011, 10:47:27 AM »
It's Godwin's Law!! [tinfoil]


"Evil" is perhaps just too strong of a word.  It should be reserved for Jeffrey Dahmer clones.
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AJ Dual

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2011, 10:55:12 PM »
What? I am not allowed to call the system evil because it's not quite as evil as the Nazis? Is that the standard now?

Perhaps its simplt just not evil?
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MechAg94

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Re: New Blue Nightmare: Clarence Thomas and the Amendment of Doom
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2011, 12:50:08 AM »
What? I am not allowed to call the system evil because it's not quite as evil as the Nazis? Is that the standard now?
It is not a matter of what you can do or are allowed to do.  It is a matter of what you want/intend for people to think when they read your writing and if you want them to actually agree with you instead of dismissing you or reacting to your strong language with automatic disagreement.  Saying Scalia is "evil" is something I would expect to see on some moonbat lefty site.
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