Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Scout26 on December 27, 2017, 05:27:58 AM
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One thing that has always bugged me is that once someone is out of office, the press still refers to them by the title they previously had/held. e.g. Secretary Clinton, President Bush, Senator Reid, Speaker Gingrich. To my mind (and I think the Founders would agree), is that once out of office, they revert to Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss as appropriate. Mrs Clinton, Mr. Bush, Mr. Reid, Mr. Gingrich. I have noticed in going back and watching various newsclips, that the MSM always said "Secretary Clinton", yet it was often (>51% of the time) "Former President Bush" or "Former Speaker Gingrich".
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One thing that has always bugged me is that once someone is out of office, the press still refers to them by the title they previously had/held. e.g. Secretary Clinton, President Bush, Senator Reid, Speaker Gingrich. To my mind (and I think the Founders would agree), is that once out of office, they revert to Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss as appropriate. Mrs Clinton, Mr. Bush, Mr. Reid, Mr. Gingrich. I have noticed in going back and watching various newsclips, that the MSM always said "Secretary Clinton", yet it was often (>51% of the time) "Former President Bush" or "Former Speaker Gingrich".
That has always bugged me, too. I apply the same rule to former military persons, such as the SecDef, Mr. Mattis.
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It's not a title of nobility.
It's an honorific that recognizes their service.
A title of nobility, by definition, passes through the chain of heirs on the death of the holder. That doesn't happen with honorifics.
"I have noticed in going back and watching various newsclips, that the MSM always said "Secretary Clinton", yet it was often (>51% of the time) "Former President Bush" or "Former Speaker Gingrich"."
Generally, and I mean REALLY generally, is that when you're referring to someone, instead of addressing them, you use "Former blah blah blah" if they are fully retired from public life.
In the case of Hillary, she would have been called Secretary Clinton while she was running for office. Now that she's been forcibly retired, MSNBC SHOULD be referring to her as Former Secretary...
Of course, MSNBC, being the completely unbiased news outlet that it is, has multiple sets of rules. I'm really surprised that they're not calling her Cheated President Clinton.
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I never liked the Secretary Clinton thing just because it sounds like a title you'd hear from some totalitarian nation, similar to Chairman Mao or General Secretary buy a vowel of some east Bloc bunch. Coupled with her style stolen from a 1960s politburo and it is easy to see msnbc leg tinglers worshipping her as such.
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The first thing I thought of in reading the OP was Kentucky Fried Chicken.*
What Mike said. They're honorarium(s), like "Doctor," for a PhD. We also use "The Honorable" Senator/Representative or whatever in standard formal letter salutations. And "His Honor, the Mayor..."
Although I'd agree that sometimes the honoree ain't so honorable.
I agree that the MSM has multiple sets of rules. They're very good at manipulating semantics and this "Secretary Clinton" is an example.
Buck Private Terry, 230RN
* Cf also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_(title)
"The Colonel" is also often a shorthand reference to restaurateur Colonel Harland David Sanders, the founder of the Kentucky Fried Chicken ("KFC") chain of franchised restaurants, whom Ruby Laffoon, Governor of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, commissioned a Kentucky colonel in 1935. Another famous "colonel" was Colonel Thomas Parker, the manager of Elvis Presley, who received his title from Jimmie Davis as a reward for Parker's help in Davis's campaign to be elected Governor of Louisiana.
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An honorarium is a payment, or stipend, given to someone for providing a service that otherwise would be rendered free of charge.
An honorific is a title or term used to display deference or respect to someone.
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[thread drift]
If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]
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What Mike said. They're honorific um(s), like "Doctor," for a PhD. We also use "The Honorable" Senator/Representative or whatever in standard letter salutations. And "His Honor, the Mayor..."
[thread drift]
If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]
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[thread drift]
If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]
Years ago I was at a party where a guy was introduced by the host as Dr. Petty (a former professor of mine).
One of the other people there, quite sloshed and from what I could tell a bit of an ass, immediately starting asking Dr. Petty medical questions.
He finally said "Look, I'm not that kind of Doctor. I'm a professor of music theory at Dickinson."
To which drunk party guest blurts "What the hell good is that?"
I almost fell over I was laughing so hard.
Every time I saw Fred after that I always made sure to ask him a medical question. One of the nicest, most engaged, and interesting professors I ever had. Died way too early.
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You can ask as often as you want, Larry. I'm not sure the answer is going to change. :rofl:
I guess, though, that yes, a Ph.D in nursing could be be called doctor.
I'm thinking that in practice, though, it wouldn't be used.
Probably in writing it would be Jane Doe, Ph.D, RN or similar.
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An honorarium is a payment, or stipend, given to someone for providing a service that otherwise would be rendered free of charge.
An honorific is a title or term used to display deference or respect to someone.
Yeah, oops, thanks.
Something bothered me about that, but I figured someone would catch it.
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Years ago I was at a party where a guy was introduced by the host as Dr. Petty (a former professor of mine).
One of the other people there, quite sloshed and from what I could tell a bit of an ass, immediately starting asking Dr. Petty medical questions.
He finally said "Look, I'm not that kind of Doctor. I'm a professor of music theory at Dickinson."
To which drunk party guest blurts "What the hell good is that?"
I almost fell over I was laughing so hard.
Every time I saw Fred after that I always made sure to ask him a medical question. One of the nicest, most engaged, and interesting professors I ever had. Died way too early.
Funny! Interestingly enough, academics were called "doctors" before medical men ever were. They can claim to be the "real" doctors!
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A title of nobility, by definition, passes through the chain of heirs on the death of the holder. That doesn't happen with honorifics.
Ummmm, no. There are heredity peers and life peers. Life peers do not pass on their titles after death. The honorific is like a life peerage.
It's not a title of nobility.
It's an honorific that recognizes their service.
Again, they no longer hold that position. What's the saying "We only have one President at a time." We only have one Secretary of State at a time. Once she resigned the position she became Mrs. Clinton or Former Secretary Clinton. She loses the title.
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Yep, you're right, there are, designated titles that die with the owner. But this is still not the same thing.
"gain, they no longer hold that position."
And again, they have none of the power or responsibilities of that office.
And again, it is a way of honoring their service to the country. Its a title that conveys absolutely no extra benefits. It doesn't allow them a permanent seat in Congress, or to camp out in the West Wing for life.
Not sure how, or why, you'd think that this creates a class of nobility in the United States. The founders and framers knew what nobility was, and they knew that honoring an individual's contributions by continuing to refer to them by the highest service title they held during their lives was different.
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What about retired military people, like say Retired Colonel or Retired General?
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What about retired military people, like say Retired Colonel or Retired General?
What about them?
Again, maintaining their service title is once they've retired is an honorific.
Not a mark of nobility.
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What about them?
Again, maintaining their service title is once they've retired is an honorific.
Not a mark of nobility.
A what rank is that honorific earned? General seems like a given. So does Colonel and Lt. Colonel. Major is borderline, while Captain and Lieutenants are right out.
Then there is the enlisted rank, which have no honor, ever. =D
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What about them?
Again, maintaining their service title is once they've retired is an honorific.
Not a mark of nobility.
I'm asking Scout.
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A what rank is that honorific earned? General seems like a given. So does Colonel and Lt. Colonel. Major is borderline, while Captain and Lieutenants are right out.
Then there is the enlisted rank, which have no honor, ever. =D
If we're talking "retired", I think there's some history there that goes well beyond the US, and that you're probably pretty close regarding US retired ranks. I've seen people who put in 20 and got out an O-4, but I don't think I've seen any 20 year O-3s or less. The .mil guys here might have examples, but I might not want to put the "comma retired" behind my name if I was an O-2 at the end of 20 years (if you can even make it that long without being asked to leave).
I saw plenty of people at O-5, O-6, retire and walk in the door in civvies the next day. Some of them put "CDR, Retired" (for example) behind their names in their email sigs, some didn't. The few retired Admirals I ran into (that retired and went civil) were all called "Admiral" by everybody, and introduced as such at meetings, etc.
That's just my experience in the fed.gov setting. I don't know how some of them do it if they take a job at megacorp or whatever. I do know a retired O-5 and O-6 who started a drone business after they retired, and they both do the "comma retired" thing on their web page, business cards, etc. I think though, that they do it more because they were pilots than for any other reason, as it adds an "expertise level" to their advertising.
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A what rank is that honorific earned? General seems like a given. So does Colonel and Lt. Colonel. Major is borderline, while Captain and Lieutenants are right out.
Then there is the enlisted rank, which have no honor, ever. =D
I'm sure that there are some Master Gunnery Sergeants who would disagree with that, but whatever.
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I spent a couple of years working at Navy Federal Credit Union.
As you can imagine, lots of retired officers and enlisted there.
There were at least two former USMC gunnery sergeants who were called Gunny XXX, numerous Chief Warrant Officers who were referred to as Chief XXX...
There were also several who were referred to as Captain... In the Navy, the Captain rank is equivalent to the Army's bird Colonel.
Once you got to know them personally and worked with them, most of them were fine with being on a first name basis.
There were a few complete aholes who absolutely demanded that they be called by their former rank. They were just being dicks.
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I apply my own preferred honorifics. It just feels better.
Like "that f'n Obama", "crooked Hillary", "plastic Pelosi", etc
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There were a few complete aholes who absolutely demanded that they be called by their former rank. They were just being dicks.
I luckily never ran into any of that. I was on a first name basis with all of them, including the guys with stars (after I got some seniority myself). While O-6s and under might put that in their emails, I never ran into a single one that demanded to be called by their former rank in any setting.
The Admirals seemed like guys that wouldn't care either, but for some reason without anyone saying anything, we would always call them "Admiral" and introduce them as such at formal meetings and in emails, etc. that had wide distribution. Otherwise at a small staff meeting or whatever, everyone was on a first name basis.
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I apply my own preferred honorifics. It just feels better.
Like "that f'n Obama", "crooked Hillary", "plastic Pelosi", etc
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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There were a few complete aholes who absolutely demanded that they be called by their former rank. They were just being dicks.
We got a retired 2 star in the local gun club, he goes by his first name. Nice guy, very much a gentleman.
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None of the Admirals or Generals I've ever encountered demanded to be called by their rank. It was normally Captains or Majors, and one Colonel, who didn't work for NFCU, he was married to our secretary. He was an ahole, she was an absolute sweetheart.
The first time I'd work with one of them I'd address them by their rank and last name, and almost universally I'd be told to call them by their first name.
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One thing that has always bugged me is that once someone is out of office, the press still refers to them by the title they previously had/held. e.g. Secretary Clinton, President Bush, Senator Reid, Speaker Gingrich. To my mind (and I think the Founders would agree), is that once out of office, they revert to Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss as appropriate. Mrs Clinton, Mr. Bush, Mr. Reid, Mr. Gingrich. I have noticed in going back and watching various newsclips, that the MSM always said "Secretary Clinton", yet it was often (>51% of the time) "Former President Bush" or "Former Speaker Gingrich".
I have noticed the same thing, and I agree with you. When a police officer retires, he is no longer a police officer and he is no longer called "Officer." Mrs. Clinton is not a senator, and she is not the Secretary of State. She holds no public office, therefore she is a private citizen, just like you and me. She is Mrs. Clinton, not "Secretary" Clinton.
I don't see people referring to Madelaine Albright or Colin Powell as "Secretary." Can't figure out why Hillary is different.
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Hmmm.... I would personally like a law banning naming any gov property after a living person.
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[thread drift]
If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]
A few months back I was being treated for a hip problem by the physical therapy department at the nearby VA hospital. The therapy wasn't producing results, so at one session the young lady therapist disappeared into a back room, came back with a book, and thumbed through it. After reading a few pages, she pronounced that she thought I had a torn labrum.
That generated a referral to Orthopedics. The doctors in the specialty clinics are all interns or residents from the nearby teaching hospital, so--basically--medical students. The guy I got was an obnoxious, pompous young ahole. I went through the entire history, described the symptoms, explained the therapy and how it hadn't helped much, and finally got to the therapist's suggestion that I might have a torn labrum. His response?
"Well, she's only a therapist. I'm a doctor, and you're too old to have a torn labrum."
Ooooookay, then. At the next therapy session the young lady asked me what the orthopedic doctor had said, so I told her--verbatim. She smiled, and said, "Actually, I have a doctorate in physical therapy, so I am a doctor." ZAP!
I then dusted off my medicare plan and went to see the sports medicine orthopedic doctor to whom all the other orthopedic docs in the area refer hip problems. He listened to the history, looked at the same x-rays the VA doctor had seen, read the therapy notes, and said, "Yep. You have a torn labrum." Didn't hesitate for a nanosecond.
So much for young Mr. "I'm a doctor, she's only a therapist" at the VA.
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Thank you Hawkmoon for that story.
I have a rare diseases. I have also encountered a few doctors who know literally nothing about what they are talking and don't care to look anything up to help me.
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"I don't see people referring to Madelaine Albright or Colin Powell as "Secretary." Can't figure out why Hillary is different."
You just hate the nobility because they're all better than you.
Here... http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/27/politics/barack-obama-hillary-clinton-gallup/index.html
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[thread drift]
If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]
While a nurse could earn a PhD, a doctorate in nursing is called Doctor of Nursing Practice, and is abbreviated DNP.
Mrs. Mush, RN, CCRN, MSN tells me tells me a DNP is called "Doctor" when a title is appropriate.
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That has always bugged me, too. I apply the same rule to former military persons, such as the SecDef, Mr. Mattis.
That would be Secretary Mattis...
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I have been known as "Dr Speed" for decades now in both racing and FM Classic Rock Radio circles. The title was bestowed on me by my brother-in-law back when I was bending wrenches and racing heavily. I road up on my bike with a bag of tools strapped to the back of my TX750 Yamaha twin and he tagged me "Dr Speed" after "Dr Kiley MD" on "Marcus Welby, M.D."
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/James_Brolin_Kiley_Marcus_Welby_1969.JPG)
:old:
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Mrs. Mush, RN, CCRN, MSN tells me tells me a DNP is called "Doctor" when a title is appropriate.
So is a PhD in art history.
To put it all in perspective, many years ago the late Ann Landers asked in one of her columns what we call a person who graduates last in their class at medical school. The answer, of course, is "Doctor."
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What has always bothered me is that when writing to your congresscritter, the "expected" way to address the envelope is "The Honorable Senator Shecklegrabber"
Someone who wants to be addressed as "Honorable" . . . probably isn't. Especially when he or she is a member of the only distinctively native American criminal class.
I've never worked for the military as a contractor or in any other capacity, so as for addressing former military personnel by their rank rather than their name . . . I'm disinclined to do that; I figure as a civilian, I outrank them anyway. ;)
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Ought to start demanding folks address me as former Lance Criminal. Navy Fed is always good for it >:D
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I reached the rank of Specialist 5 in Vietnam. If former Secretary of State Clinton gets to be addressed as "Secretary Clinton," then I should be addressed as "Specialist Hawkmoon."
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"Doctor" (whether medical or other) is not a title of nobility, but recognition of training and education.
One of the regional managers at Airborne Express was a retired Colonel. No one called him that. We all called him "Boss". The retired Colonel that was a member of my American Legion post we all called "Colonel" not out of any requirement on his or our parts, but out of respect. Same with the retired First Sergeant. Everyone called him "Top". The Colonel always said call me "Joe".* I also knew him outside of the Legion. (He owned a semi-trailer sales and leasing co.) His business card read "Joe Smith* Owner". No mention of his military service.
I never saw the "Military Rank, (Ret.)" unless it was in an letter or e-mail related to military service, e.g. a letter to the editor regarding a military matter.
Again, to my mind, it should be like Cincinnatus. Once you complete .government service, you go back to being Mr. or Mrs. If the MSM wants to refer to them as "Former XYZ Mr./Mrs. Abcd" to point to the reason they are giving their opinion/information, that's fine. But when addressing them directly it should be as "Mr/Mrs. Abcd" and not using their former position/title.
*- Not his real name.
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You can ask as often as you want, Larry. I'm not sure the answer is going to change. :rofl:
I guess, though, that yes, a Ph.D in nursing could be be called doctor.
I'm thinking that in practice, though, it wouldn't be used.
Probably in writing it would be Jane Doe, Ph.D, RN or similar.
Actually, it would be Jane Doe, DNP (Doctorate of Nursing Practice)
Whoops, just saw that dogmush beat me to it.
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EN 3rd class, Dr Speed
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Can't you get yourself named as a Kentucky Colonel or Rhode Island Commodore if you
make a political contribution (cough) I mean, do some recognized good work?
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[thread drift]
If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]
http://www.formsofaddress.info/Nurse.html
How do you address an envelope to Janice Wilson, a widowed and retired female individual who has her RN and a PhD?
-- Director of Development, Health & Wellness Center
Dear DODH&WC,
Nurses (and other professionals in field) typically don't use Dr. in the healthcare environment. Usually only the MD's are so addressed to prevent any confusion by the patients as to who is a 'doctor' and who is not.
So this nurse would be on an official envelope:
Janice Wilson, PhD, RN
I was assuming this was an official letter ... but maybe it's not. On social correspondence, post-nominals aren't used. So there she could be Dr. (Her Name) or Ms. (Her Name) or Mrs. (Husband's Full Name) if you know one of those is her preference.
-- Robert Hickey
Oddly, I was fairly certain of this long ago because I dated a RN who was working on a PhD...in CompSci. She was making a small fortune consulting for a couple of medical software companies on user interface design and hadn't had to wipe anyone else's butt to do it.
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When a police officer retires, he is no longer a police officer and he is no longer called "Officer."
That's not a Federal issue, except in the case of Federal officers. AFAICT, retired sheriffs and deputies here are often referenced by title when the reference is in any way related to the department. Same for the retired fire captain in the next county who was critically injured in a wreck (which unfortunately killed his wife and two grandsons) last week; every article I've seen named him as Captain Williams, though honestly, since he trained most of the first responders who worked the wreck, that might have been the only name the media got initially. City police chiefs often don't retire from that position; they either move on from LE entirely or take a lower position at a larger department. (Voluntarily or not, in either case.)
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Can't you get yourself named as a Kentucky Colonel or Rhode Island Commodore if you make a political contribution (cough) I mean, do some recognized good work?
Those are military ranks though, not titles of nobility. Your kids wouldn't automatically be a Colonel, where if you were appointed to be Sir Hank, Baron of cumsquat, your heir would be Baron of cumsquat upon your death.
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Those are military ranks though, not titles of nobility. Your kids wouldn't automatically be a Colonel, where if you were appointed to be Sir Hank, Baron of cumsquat, your heir would be Baron of cumsquat upon your death.
Does Paul McCartney have kids? He's been knighted -- does that mean that any offspring are automatically knights, or whatever the female analog is of knight?
[Dame, I guess.]
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"Does Paul McCartney have kids? He's been knighted -- does that mean that any offspring are automatically knights, or whatever the female analog is of knight?"
No. His being knighted means absolutely nothing to his kids, other than their ability to say "My Dad's a knight!"
Being knighted in Britain is an honorific (most often bestowed as part of the annual Honors List) recognizing the individual's contributions to the arts, sciences, charity, etc.
There are numerous levels of "knighthood" in Britain and the Commonwealth, but only the two highest recognize allow the individual to be called either Sir or Dame.
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Sure, but he can still compete in the joust tournaments.
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Sure, but he can still compete in the joust tournaments.
That's why Steven Hawking hasn't been made a formal knight. They don't want him jousting from his electric wheelchair. :rofl:
Actually, Hawking was offered an elevation to knighthood from his current position of Commander of the British Empire (CBE), but he refused as a protest over governmental funding for the sciences.