No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States

[Scout26]

One thing that has always bugged me is that once someone is out of office, the press still refers to them by the title they previously had/held. e.g. Secretary Clinton, President Bush, Senator Reid, Speaker Gingrich. To my mind (and I think the Founders would agree), is that once out of office, they revert to Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss as appropriate.  Mrs Clinton, Mr. Bush, Mr. Reid, Mr. Gingrich.  I have noticed in going back and watching various newsclips, that the MSM always said "Secretary Clinton", yet it was often (>51% of the time) "Former President Bush" or "Former Speaker Gingrich".

[Fly320s]

One thing that has always bugged me is that once someone is out of office, the press still refers to them by the title they previously had/held. e.g. Secretary Clinton, President Bush, Senator Reid, Speaker Gingrich. To my mind (and I think the Founders would agree), is that once out of office, they revert to Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss as appropriate.  Mrs Clinton, Mr. Bush, Mr. Reid, Mr. Gingrich.  I have noticed in going back and watching various newsclips, that the MSM always said "Secretary Clinton", yet it was often (>51% of the time) "Former President Bush" or "Former Speaker Gingrich".

That has always bugged me, too.  I apply the same rule to former military persons, such as the SecDef, Mr. Mattis.

[K Frame]

It's not a title of nobility.

It's an honorific that recognizes their service.

A title of nobility, by definition, passes through the chain of heirs on the death of the holder. That doesn't happen with honorifics.


"I have noticed in going back and watching various newsclips, that the MSM always said "Secretary Clinton", yet it was often (>51% of the time) "Former President Bush" or "Former Speaker Gingrich"."

Generally, and I mean REALLY generally, is that when you're referring to someone, instead of addressing them, you use "Former blah blah blah" if they are fully retired from public life.

In the case of Hillary, she would have been called Secretary Clinton while she was running for office. Now that she's been forcibly retired, MSNBC SHOULD be referring to her as Former Secretary...

Of course, MSNBC, being the completely unbiased news outlet that it is, has multiple sets of rules. I'm really surprised that they're not calling her Cheated President Clinton.

[French G.]

I never liked the Secretary Clinton thing just because it sounds like a title you'd hear from some totalitarian nation, similar to Chairman Mao or General Secretary buy a vowel of some east Bloc bunch. Coupled with her style stolen from a 1960s politburo and it is easy to see msnbc leg tinglers worshipping her as such.

[230RN]

The first thing I thought of in reading the OP was Kentucky Fried Chicken.*

What Mike said.  They're honorarium(s), like "Doctor," for a PhD.  We also use "The Honorable" Senator/Representative or whatever in standard formal letter salutations.  And "His Honor, the Mayor..."

Although I'd agree that sometimes the honoree ain't so honorable.

I agree that the MSM has multiple sets of rules.  They're very good at manipulating semantics and this "Secretary Clinton" is an example.

Buck Private Terry, 230RN

* Cf also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_(title)

"The Colonel" is also often a shorthand reference to restaurateur Colonel Harland David Sanders, the founder of the Kentucky Fried Chicken ("KFC") chain of franchised restaurants, whom Ruby Laffoon, Governor of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, commissioned a Kentucky colonel in 1935. Another famous "colonel" was Colonel Thomas Parker, the manager of Elvis Presley, who received his title from Jimmie Davis as a reward for Parker's help in Davis's campaign to be elected Governor of Louisiana.

[K Frame]

An honorarium is a payment, or stipend, given to someone for providing a service that otherwise would be rendered free of charge.

An honorific is a title or term used to display deference or respect to someone.

[RoadKingLarry]

[thread drift]

If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]

[RoadKingLarry]

What Mike said.  They're honorific um(s), like "Doctor," for a PhD.  We also use "The Honorable" Senator/Representative or whatever in standard letter salutations.  And "His Honor, the Mayor..."

[thread drift]

If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]

[K Frame]

[thread drift]

If a Nurse earns a PhD are they then a Doctor?
[/thread drift]

Years ago I was at a party where a guy was introduced by the host as Dr. Petty (a former professor of mine).

One of the other people there, quite sloshed and from what I could tell a bit of an ass, immediately starting asking Dr. Petty medical questions.

He finally said "Look, I'm not that kind of Doctor. I'm a professor of music theory at Dickinson."

To which drunk party guest blurts "What the hell good is that?"

I almost fell over I was laughing so hard.

Every time I saw Fred after that I always made sure to ask him a medical question. One of the nicest, most engaged, and interesting professors I ever had. Died way too early.

[K Frame]

You can ask as often as you want, Larry. I'm not sure the answer is going to change.  


I guess, though, that yes, a Ph.D in nursing could be be called doctor.

I'm thinking that in practice, though, it wouldn't be used.

Probably in writing it would be Jane Doe, Ph.D, RN or similar.

[230RN]

An honorarium is a payment, or stipend, given to someone for providing a service that otherwise would be rendered free of charge.

An honorific is a title or term used to display deference or respect to someone.

Yeah, oops, thanks.

Something bothered me about that, but I figured someone would catch it.

[Pb]

Years ago I was at a party where a guy was introduced by the host as Dr. Petty (a former professor of mine).

One of the other people there, quite sloshed and from what I could tell a bit of an ass, immediately starting asking Dr. Petty medical questions.

He finally said "Look, I'm not that kind of Doctor. I'm a professor of music theory at Dickinson."

To which drunk party guest blurts "What the hell good is that?"

I almost fell over I was laughing so hard.

Every time I saw Fred after that I always made sure to ask him a medical question. One of the nicest, most engaged, and interesting professors I ever had. Died way too early.

Funny!  Interestingly enough, academics were called "doctors" before medical men ever were.  They can claim to be the "real" doctors!

[Scout26]

A title of nobility, by definition, passes through the chain of heirs on the death of the holder. That doesn't happen with honorifics.

Ummmm, no.  There are heredity peers and life peers.  Life peers do not pass on their titles after death.   The honorific is like a life peerage.

It's not a title of nobility.

It's an honorific that recognizes their service.

Again, they no longer hold that position.  What's the saying "We only have one President at a time."  We only have one Secretary of State at a time.  Once she resigned the position she became Mrs. Clinton or Former Secretary Clinton.  She loses the title.

[K Frame]

Yep, you're right, there are, designated titles that die with the owner. But this is still not the same thing.

"gain, they no longer hold that position."

And again, they have none of the power or responsibilities of that office.

And again, it is a way of honoring their service to the country. Its a title that conveys absolutely no extra benefits. It doesn't allow them a permanent seat in Congress, or to camp out in the West Wing for life.

Not sure how, or why, you'd think that this creates a class of nobility in the United States. The founders and framers knew what nobility was, and they knew that honoring an individual's contributions by continuing to refer to them by the highest service title they held during their lives was different.

 

[charby]

What about retired military people, like say Retired Colonel or Retired General?

[K Frame]

What about retired military people, like say Retired Colonel or Retired General?

What about them?

Again, maintaining their service title is once they've retired is an honorific.

Not a mark of nobility.

[Fly320s]

What about them?

Again, maintaining their service title is once they've retired is an honorific.

Not a mark of nobility.

A what rank is that honorific earned?  General seems like a given.  So does Colonel and Lt. Colonel.  Major is borderline, while Captain and Lieutenants are right out.

Then there is the enlisted rank, which have no honor, ever.   

[charby]

What about them?

Again, maintaining their service title is once they've retired is an honorific.

Not a mark of nobility.

I'm asking Scout.

[Ben]

A what rank is that honorific earned?  General seems like a given.  So does Colonel and Lt. Colonel.  Major is borderline, while Captain and Lieutenants are right out.

Then there is the enlisted rank, which have no honor, ever.  

If we're talking "retired", I think there's some history there that goes well beyond the US, and that you're probably pretty close regarding US retired ranks. I've seen people who put in 20 and got out an O-4, but I don't think I've seen any 20 year O-3s or less. The .mil guys here might have examples, but I might not want to put the "comma retired" behind my name if I was an O-2 at the end of 20 years (if you can even make it that long without being asked to leave).

I saw plenty of people at O-5, O-6, retire and walk in the door in civvies the next day. Some of them put "CDR, Retired" (for example) behind their names in their email sigs, some didn't. The few retired Admirals I ran into (that retired and went civil) were all called "Admiral" by everybody, and introduced as such at meetings, etc.

That's just my experience in the fed.gov setting. I don't know how some of them do it if they take a job at megacorp or whatever. I do know a retired O-5 and O-6 who started a drone business after they retired, and they both do the "comma retired" thing on their web page, business cards, etc. I think though, that they do it more because they were pilots than for any other reason, as it adds an "expertise level" to their advertising.

[K Frame]

A what rank is that honorific earned?  General seems like a given.  So does Colonel and Lt. Colonel.  Major is borderline, while Captain and Lieutenants are right out.

Then there is the enlisted rank, which have no honor, ever.   

I'm sure that there are some Master Gunnery Sergeants who would disagree with that, but whatever. 

[K Frame]

I spent a couple of years working at Navy Federal Credit Union.

As you can imagine, lots of retired officers and enlisted there.

There were at least two former USMC gunnery sergeants who were called Gunny XXX, numerous Chief Warrant Officers who were referred to as Chief XXX...

There were also several who were referred to as Captain... In the Navy, the Captain rank is equivalent to the Army's bird Colonel.

Once you got to know them personally and worked with them, most of them were fine with being on a first name basis.

There were a few complete aholes who absolutely demanded that they be called by their former rank. They were just being dicks.

[Kingcreek]

I apply my own preferred honorifics. It just feels better.
Like "that f'n Obama", "crooked Hillary", "plastic Pelosi", etc

[Ben]

There were a few complete aholes who absolutely demanded that they be called by their former rank. They were just being dicks.

I luckily never ran into any of that. I was on a first name basis with all of them, including the guys with stars (after I got some seniority myself). While O-6s and under might put that in their emails, I never ran into a single one that demanded to be called by their former rank in any setting.

The Admirals seemed like guys that wouldn't care either, but for some reason without anyone saying anything, we would always call them "Admiral" and introduce them as such at formal meetings and in emails, etc. that had wide distribution. Otherwise at a small staff meeting or whatever, everyone was on a first name basis.

[K Frame]

I apply my own preferred honorifics. It just feels better.
Like "that f'n Obama", "crooked Hillary", "plastic Pelosi", etc

 

[charby]

There were a few complete aholes who absolutely demanded that they be called by their former rank. They were just being dicks.

We got a retired 2 star in the local gun club, he goes by his first name. Nice guy, very much a gentleman.