Author Topic: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA  (Read 23491 times)

Jamisjockey

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2009, 12:26:21 PM »
Oh comeon.  You were in that room with Huckabee when he made the decision, right?
 ;/
He served 11 years.  Then, in WA, he was convicted of and charged with a whole littany more felonies.  Rather than use the whole of his past actions as a judgement, WA decided that a measly $150,000 bond was enough to keep him from doing anything else.
Should Huckabee of granted the guy clemancy?  Probably not.  Bad decision.  But WA State had plenty of further chances to stop this guy, too.  
JD

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Hawkmoon

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2009, 12:42:23 PM »
Does anyone else have a problem describing this as an "ambush"?  Every definition I've seen indicates that ambush means to attack from concealment, by surprise.  This heinous crime was an "ambush" about as much as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

What part of it DOESN'T fit the definition of "ambush" for you?

* He had the weapon concealed under his coat when he walked in.
* I'd say it's probably a given that four uniformed officers having a cuppa before their shift were more than mildly "surprised" to find themselves under a targeted attack

Granted, he wasn't lurking under the landscape shrubbery waiting for the officers to arrive, so perhaps that's why "ambush" doesn't work for you. How about "sneak attack"?
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HankB

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2009, 12:43:24 PM »
I don't understand why some people are so willing to facilitate the early release of criminals with MANY felony convictions.  ???

And I'm not willing to make excuses for those who do, be they idiot officials in WA or a former governor of Arkansas.

Just to fill out more of the story, let's see a few little tidbits from Clemmons' time in the Arkansas criminal justice system:

Quote
During one trial, Clemmons was shackled in leg irons and seated next to a uniformed officer. The presiding judge ordered the extra security because he felt Clemmons had threatened him, court records show.

Another time, Clemmons hid a hinge in his sock, and was accused of intending to use it as a weapon. Yet another time, Clemmons took a lock from a holding cell, and threw it toward the bailiff. He missed and instead hit Clemmons' mother, who had come to bring him street clothes, according to records and published reports.

On another occasion, Clemmons had reached for a guard's pistol during transport to the courtroom.

I was outraged when I heard about Dukakis releasing Willie Horton, and I'm similarly outraged now; Huckabee doesn't get a "pass" because he's GOP rather than DEM.
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vaskidmark

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2009, 12:52:53 PM »
I don't understand why some people are so willing to facilitate the early release of criminals with MANY felony convictions.  ???

And I'm not willing to make excuses for those who do, be they idiot officials in WA or a former governor of Arkansas.

Just to fill out more of the story, let's see a few little tidbits from Clemmons' time in the Arkansas criminal justice system:

I was outraged when I heard about Dukakis releasing Willie Horton, and I'm similarly outraged now; Huckabee doesn't get a "pass" because he's GOP rather than DEM.

Well, yeah.  OK, that happened.  But it was all early on during his prison time.  See, he "settled down" after figuring things out, and was a "model prisoner" afterwards

[/sarcasm]

I'm one who favors the concept of long-term incarceration as a means of incapacitation.  It has other collateral advantages - mostly related to the gene pool - that to my mind outweigh the fiscal costs.  Yes, I'd rather have unpaved secondary roads and psychopaths locked up.  If that pothole is really aggravating I can always bring a few wheelbarrows of dirt and fill it in myself (dirt road - how are they gonna know?).  Tennis and movies in the park or keeping psychopaths locked up till they are at least 55 - guess which way I'm voting.  The problem is I'm in the minority on this.

stay safe.

skidmark
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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2009, 01:02:43 PM »
@hawkmoon, I think what Hutch is saying is that it is not clear whether this attack met the lying-in-wait criterion to be an ambush.

If Clemmons is the perpetrator, and he followed one of the cops around for a while, then decided to attack once he/she/they were having coffee, I do not think that fits the definition of an ambush.  If Clemmons was staking out the coffee shop and attacked once he saw the cops inside, that would be an ambush.
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longeyes

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2009, 01:22:55 PM »
Ambush or no ambush the issue is not tactical, it is why so many obviously dangerous people are on the loose.  This stuff happens every day, all day, all over, but it reached page one because the victims, this time, were four cops.

Huckabee may be getting a pass from some because they like the guy and are rooting for him for 2012.  Tough.  I'll say it again: compassion is killing us.  Literally.  (And if it's not compassion it's the bean-counters, who don't want to ante up to keep these criminals away from the rest of us.)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 01:38:33 PM by longeyes »
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AJ Dual

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2009, 01:34:46 PM »
I'm one who favors the concept of long-term incarceration as a means of incapacitation.  It has other collateral advantages - mostly related to the gene pool - that to my mind outweigh the fiscal costs.  Yes, I'd rather have unpaved secondary roads and psychopaths locked up.  If that pothole is really aggravating I can always bring a few wheelbarrows of dirt and fill it in myself (dirt road - how are they gonna know?).  Tennis and movies in the park or keeping psychopaths locked up till they are at least 55 - guess which way I'm voting.  The problem is I'm in the minority on this.

stay safe.

skidmark

I'm right there with you on this.

Somewhere along the way, the notion of penance/rehabilitation became prominent in our justice system, rather than the protection of society at large. IMO it actually came about in the 18th century, hence the name "Penitentiary".

While I feel the state/society at large does have the right to execute people for certain unusually heinous crimes, I think the time and expense to both the judicial and the penal system to carry out one execution would be better spent on "life means life" sentences for 5 or 6 violent criminals. It's mind-boggling to me that people convicted of selling drugs, or even certain financial, or  procedural violations can do more time than murderers, rapists, and child molesters.

The focus should be on incarcerating violent/sexual offenders as long as possible, then repeat/incorrigible non-violent offenders, or those who have stolen/scammed large quantities of property. Only after that should whatever bed-space is left be apportioned on the "revolving door" basis for the non-violent.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2009, 01:38:39 PM »
I didn't give him a pass.  I'd say, though, that the state of Washington is more guilty of allowing this guy his 6th through 11th felonies and then allowing him back on the street.  At what point between number 6 and number 11 do you decide that this guy shouldn't be back out?
Should Huckabee have let the guy out?  No.  But its disingenious to blame this in whole or even in part on him.  Why?
BECAUSE THE STATE OF WASHINGTON HAD 7 CHANCES TO MAKE SURE THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN.
 ;/
JD

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brimic

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2009, 01:49:28 PM »
Quote
I'm one who favors the concept of long-term incarceration as a means of incapacitation.  It has other collateral advantages - mostly related to the gene pool - that to my mind outweigh the fiscal costs.

Along those lines, maybe an  option should be given. Someone in prison with a sentence for violent crime could be let out early in exchange for having their junk (all of it) surgically removed. Another advantage of this is that greatly lowered testosterone means far less aggression and physical strength.
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HankB

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2009, 01:57:20 PM »
If Huckabee hadn't let him out after AT LEAST FIVE felony convictions, he never would have been in Washington where he could commit all those other crimes. (And be released, in turn, by the idiot WA authorities.  :mad:)

Plenty of blame to go around, but we don't know WHO in WA kept cutting the guy loose; we DO know Huckabee. And as a potential Presidential contender, his demonstrably poor judgement factors in to his fitness for office.

Sadly, this sort of thing has been going on a long time . . . and not just in AR or WA. I remember when Chicago did a 20-year study of murders in that city; it turned out that over 75% were committed by people with previous criminal records. IIRC, another Chicago study said that if perps convicted of violent felonies were actually kept in jail for three (3) full years, violent crime would be cut 60%.
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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2009, 02:15:51 PM »
I would not shed many tears if this were to ruin Huck's presidential ambitions.

Regards,

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makattak

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2009, 02:22:26 PM »
I have a question. From the article about the suspect:

Quote
When Clemmons received the 60-year sentence, he was already serving 48 years on five felony convictions and facing up to 95 more years on charges of robbery, theft of property and possessing a handgun on school property. Records from Clemmons' sentencing described him as 5-foot-7 and 108 pounds. The crimes were committed when he was 17.

What did he steal that netted him a 60 year sentence?

Here's another suggestion. Stop letting 17 year olds off the hook because they were young and can't be held responsible for their actions and you may find that by holding them responsible for their actions, they'll make better decisions.

Otherwise, you get criminals at that young age willing to commit heinous crimes knowing they won't be held "fully responsible".
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Gewehr98

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2009, 02:38:41 PM »
Huckabee has gone on record as stating that his parole board forwarded all requirements for early release. 
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Jamisjockey

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2009, 02:48:46 PM »
Huckabee has gone on record as stating that his parole board forwarded all requirements for early release. 

How dare you butt in and not jump up and down on Huckabee's NEOCON head....
 :-*
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

HankB

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2009, 03:02:54 PM »
Huckabee has gone on record as stating that his parole board forwarded all requirements for early release. 
His parole board. Not someone else's. His.

Where does the buck stop?

I have a question. From the article about the suspect:

What did he steal that netted him a 60 year sentence?
Don't know about this - but maybe the length of this sentence had something to do with his having multiple prior felony convictions? (He wasn't a first-time offender.)
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MicroBalrog

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2009, 06:35:07 PM »
Quote
Here's another suggestion. Stop letting 17 year olds off the hook because they were young and can't be held responsible for their actions and you may find that by holding them responsible for their actions, they'll make better decisions.

I agree - but you're going to go the whole way, then.
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vaskidmark

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2009, 07:50:12 PM »
Now I'm going to throw the mother of all monkey wrenches into the machinery.  Blacks make up somewhere around 15% of the national population but represent somewhere around 45% of the criminal class.  Is it discriminatory to lock them up in numbers out of proportion to their representation in the general population?

If not, then how do you account for the fact that they are arrested and convicted of crimes at 3 times their proportion of the general population?

Whites are somewhere about 45% of the population but represent only abour 25% of the prison population.  Why are there less white criminals [that were caught & convicted]?

I tell ya, it's a clear case of discrimination.  I'm not sure exactly what kind of discrimination, but its gotta be the reason.  Why, for example, if we stopped locking up young black men they could stay out of prison and provide support and role modeling to their children instead of allowing those babies to be raised by their grandparents.  If we did not incarcerate them, they could finish/go back to school and have the education and training needed to get something other than an entry-level, mimimum-wage job in the food or hotel service industries.  If we could figure out how to make sure they got their fair share of the good stuff advertised on TV, like clothes, cars, and mobile phones, then they might not spend so much time taking those things away from others who got them by working for the money to pay for them.

But wait!  There's someone who seems to have the power to do all those things.  First he's going to fix the financial system, then make sure everybody gets good health care, and then the education system is going to be put right.

All right.  I'll quit.  I'm making myself sick, too.  There are a lot of excuses out there why blacks, hispanics, muslim immigrant jihadists and even whites get locked up, but it all boils down to personal responsibility.  I've cogitated over this issue for several decades, and keep coming back to the same conclusion.  If we are not going to retroactively lock up the parents (as in breeders) of these folks for failing to instill some sort of value-set that does not lead more to crime than anything else, then we are going to have to throw away at least two generations: the ones currently in jail/prison and the ones not in jail/prison but over 3 years old.  We put those under 3 in state-sponsored orphanages and raise them under some sort of non-sectarian but Calvinist-based plan (or maybe turn them over to the Jesuits? the non-poligamist Mormons? Reformed Jews who espouse equivacal polydoxy? [ask me about them some other time]).

If you don't like the bare-bones outline of my plan - and I hope you do not - then suggest something else.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Perd Hapley

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2009, 07:53:50 PM »
Should Huckabee have let the guy out?  No.  But its disingenious to blame this in whole or even in part on him.  Why?

Yes, why?  I agree he doesn't bear all (or even most) of the blame, but why not even part?  I'm not out to get him.  I don't feel strongly about him, either way.  It just seems he may have made a very bad decision here, even without this latest crime spree.
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roo_ster

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2009, 07:55:04 PM »
vaskidmark:

The data shows that the black underclass is more criminally minded than the rest of America.  Any ratcheting down of tolerance for criminality will inevitably nab more of them.

Steve Sailer has done some interesting work in this area.  
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longeyes

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2009, 07:56:01 PM »
Huckabee was playing the clemency game with funny dice.  A thousand acts of clemency in ten years?  One every four days?  The man's pardon-happy, amigos.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2009, 07:59:32 PM »
The criticism is unfair because everyone acknowledges that you can't throw every 17 year old scumbag in prison for life.  If everyone whose jacket looked like the jacket of a potential murderer before his first murder got a life sentence, we'd have to build 100+ story prison skyscrapers in every county.

The tools do not exist to definitively identify these crooks before they do something this horrible.  Handing out a life sentence for every felony is not an acceptable alternative.

It might be.

Allow me to use an example from an unrelated field (other than that it is also the .gov at work): Highways. Roads are designed to handle a certain capacity in terms of number of vehicles per unit of time, usually expressed in vehicles-per-hour. Let's say a road was built a number of years ago for a maximum design capacity of 5000 vehicles per hour. The population of the surrounding area grows, and the peak load of the road now hits 7500 vehicles per hour at peak ... resulting in extensive gridlock during hours of peak travel (think: Washington DC beltway, for example).

So here's where the trickery comes in. The urban, regional, and transportation planners claim that because peak load increased from less than 5000 vehicles per hour to 7500 VPH over the last 20 years, over the next 20 years the load will increase by a like percentage, to 11,250 VPH. Therefore (they say) we MUST rebuild the road to accommodate this expected increase in traffic.

But, as we know from Field of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come." The converse, of course, is that if you DON'T build it ... they won't come. If the road in question is gridlocked at 7500 vehicles per hour, it by definition cannot handle a 50 percent increase, and therefore unless they build a new road, the "projected" 50 percent increase simply won't happen ... for the simple reason that people won't choose to live in a place where they can't get to and from work. The projections become self-fulfilling, because the planners and engineers create the infrastructure that allows it to take place.

Now consider how that applies to prisons. The bleeding hearts say, "But we can't build enough prisons to hold ALL those violent felons. Look how many there are."

Yeah, BUT ... we have to stop and consider that the current criminal mindset is based on "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime." If they know they can engage in armed robbery and get off (IF caught) with 5 to 10 years, and be out on parole within three ... it's worth the risk. If the sentences were stiffer and there was no provision for parole before the term of the sentence was completed -- you have to wonder if some of those smart guys might not stop and reassess if it's really worth taking a chance at knocking over a convenience store for a hundred bucks when the penalty if caught is a guaranteed 25 to 50 years in the joint.

In my opinion, there is simply no way to model this. Just making a simple-minded projection based on the current number of felons who choose to be felons because of the current sentencing structure cannot be extrapolated with any reliabiluty to predict the potential prison population if a significantly stricter penalty system were to be put in place. But the current arguments in favor of shorter, lighter sentences AND fewer prison beds don't make any sense at all, and obviously aren't working.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 08:06:05 PM by Hawkmoon »
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longeyes

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2009, 08:00:02 PM »
Why are we supposed to cut Huckabee slack?  He wasn't the only one who screwed up here.  We know that.  This is an indictment of a system.  But Huckabee is a flagrant example of someone who seems to have believed he was paving his way to glory with "good works."  To me that seems arrogant, not even compassionate.  Sorry, but here are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in Mike Huckabee's philosophy.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 08:03:07 PM by longeyes »
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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2009, 08:04:32 PM »
vaskidmark:

The data shows that the black underclass is more criminally minded than the rest of America.  Any ratcheting down of tolerance for criminality will inevitably nab more of them.

Steve Sailer has done some interesting work in this area.  

Actually more criminally minded, or merely more prone to commit crimes because of a plethora of socio-economic issues that in reality have little to do with actual individual propensity but act on/within the group?  I'm vaguely familiar with him but would appreciate some recommended readings.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2009, 12:18:40 AM »
I could care less why Huckabee granted Clemency.

What I care about is what causes a fugitive to deliberately ambush 4 armed and armored police officers... what causes him to premeditatively do that.

Were these 4 officers involved in arresting the man earlier?

The most evil Rob Leatham clone from bizarro-world wouldn't take on 4 cops in vests sitting around a table.  There's a motive here, and I want to know what it is.

plain insanity?
He's done some time, knew he would be doing it again & wanted notoriety?
At first I suspected some conspiracy but reports in the press said he was bragging he would kill some cops and no one believed him.
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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2009, 01:07:24 AM »
Michelle tears Huck and O'Reily up.
doesn't look god for the Huck, Sarah for Prez?

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/11/29/violent-felon-granted-clemency-by-huckabee-now-sought-in-lakewood-wa-police-ambush/
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