Post by: brimic on October 04, 2005, 06:43:53 PM
Just had a short talk with my wife, she says she's going to leave me. The catch is, not right now, reason being is that she is pregnant and due in early April. She says she'll stay until the little one is a year old, then she's gone.
I believe her. I try to broach the subject of our problems probably once a month for the last year, and she doesn't want to talk about it. Tonight she said she doesn't want to even talk to me anymore because she finds me repulsive to be around. Over the last 6 months or so the only time she could be in my presence and not start bitching or screaming at me was if I happen to be doing something for her- like cleaning up after her, fixing things around the house, etc, but after I'm finished she would always take plenty of time to find faults in everything I do. Last week when I tried talking to her, she told my 2 year old son to 'tell daddy to shut the f- up" and he did. I walked away and I cried.
I don't know if our problems can be fixed by counseling, I don't even know where to start. I'm going to go talk to our Pastor tomorow, but I'm not sure where to go from there. From my wife's attitude it seems that she probably won't do counseling and she probably has mental problems on top of it all. It absolutely tears me up inside that she carries my baby which has to be born into this hell of a household which will probably be split up shortly down the line. The son I have is everything I have in this world and I don't want him hurt most of all.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on October 04, 2005, 07:04:12 PM
You mentioned a pastor. That's a good place to start.
Your wife is pregnant; raging chock full of hormones, moods swinging violently to and fro.
Often, a man is the "lightning rod" for all the frustrations she's built up over the day (week, month, lifetime). The storm has brewed for a long time, built up TREMENDOUS energy, just waiting for a place to strike.
Try not to take it personally. It may NOT really be about you.
Women need love.
Men need respect/admiration/affirmation.
Counseling can help, and even if both hearts aren't in it, if you get both bodies in a room with someone who is respected by both participants, and skilled in his counseling craft, things can be turned around.
Not easy, but achievable.
Sometimes, you have to be the one to "take a bullet" on behalf of the family;
rise above the fray; remember why you got together in the first place; honor her, LISTEN and run the line out like you're fishing-- let 'em tire themselves out, then you can sometimes get to the REAL issue once they're done venting.
Be strong, steady on, and don't let on like YOU'RE giving up, even if you feel like it.
I'll remember your family when I pray.
And email me if you want to talk.
Fig
Post by: natedog on October 04, 2005, 07:04:32 PM
Post by: Zundfolge on October 04, 2005, 07:11:35 PM
He who files first "wins" ... sounds like she's pretty much gone so trying to reel her back is a waste of time.
She's telegraphed her punch so you need to beat her to it by filing first.
Post by: Monkeyleg on October 04, 2005, 07:12:20 PM
Counseling---whether it's marriage, drugs, gambling, or other problems---requires the committment of the one with the problem. When there's two involved, it requires the committment of both.
I don't know you or your wife from Adam and Eve, so take this for what it's worth (free advice): do all you can to fix things. Things in the first year or two of marriage can get downright ugly, but then they can smooth out. Maybe yours will, maybe it won't.
If you've done all you absolutely think you can to fix things, get a good lawyer. I mean a really good divorce attorney, and document everything possible.* If your wife is really screwed up, you want to have custody of the kids. And the burden is usually upon the husband to prove otherwise.
If you like, keep posting here. There's plenty of members who've been through what you're going through. There's also some very seasoned ministers (Preacherman, is that you?) who can help you through your crisis.
Post by: Monkeyleg on October 04, 2005, 07:40:53 PM
I'll just give you my story, and you can take it for what it's worth.
In the first couple of years of marriage, I was called every name that you can imagine, and then some. Friday and Saturday nights were either for love-making, or for real ball-breaking fights.
That was my wife. Then.
Her sister is 18 years younger, and I got to talking to her husband at length a few weeks ago.
He just couldn't believe the verbal abuse he's taking.
I told him, "welcome to the XYZ family, pal. I've been through this many, many times before."
Sometimes it's just there. It's there in the family, it's there in whatever happened to her before you met her, or it's just there forever (God forbid).
It's up to you whether to just abandon ship or stay the course until she rights herself. Notice I said that "she rights herself." If you haven't been abusive, then it's her chance or choice to save the marriage.
*As for the asterisk: Several years back I had to rent an airplane hangar to photograph some very large trucks. The owner of the hangar was the son of the president of a good-sized chemical company.
He told me that his wife---an absolutely stunning Asian woman---was suing him for divorce. Not just divorce, but her attorney was going after an award of 10% of all of this guy's future income in one lump sum settlement.
How's the guy going to know how much money he's going to make over the next ten years?
Anyway, the guy's attorney is the attorney who pretty much wrote Wisconsin's divorce laws.
The attorney pulled out a Rolodex, with a whole list of handsome guys on it. He told his client that, for $100,, any one of these guys would meet the ex-wife, date her, and marry her within a year, and that the client would be off the hook.
The guy refused, based on his principles.
Last I heard, the guy was still getting bled dry by his ex-wife.
**********************
Post by: brimic on October 04, 2005, 07:49:36 PM
Quote
He who files first "wins" ... sounds like she's pretty much gone so trying to reel her back is a waste of time.
I have had this thought in the back of my head for awhile, sort of tucked away for when things are completely irrecoverable. Part of me wants to run to a lawyer insted of a Pastor, I've been put through a lot of emotional abuse over the last year or so and the darker side of me would love to see her and the lifestyle she enjoys knocked down several notches for it. On the other side, I want things to work out. She is not the person I married 5 years ago. She used to be fun loving, and interested in me but has changed for the worse. People change, I have no doubt changed as well, but I want to do what is best for my family. I've sacrificed so much for our family, that everything else I could give to save the marriage wouldn't even phase me. Maybe I have an Idealized paradigm of what a family should be where a mother and father work together despite their differences to raise their children, hers seems to be that marriage is disposable once the romance runs out. No suprise that I came from a 2 parent household and her parents divorced.
One thought I've had for awhile was to obtain a mini-cassette recorder to tape some of her screaming fits. I don't know if this would be a really good idea for trying to rebuild a relationship with counseling or if its even useful if we end up going down the divorce path.
Post by: brimic on October 04, 2005, 08:01:18 PM
Quote
Sometimes it's just there. It's there in the family, it's there in whatever happened to her before you met her, or it's just there forever (God forbid).
I didn't catch your last post Monkeyleg, until after I wrote the last one...That's the exact situation I'm in, to a 'T'. Her father, a decent guy and all is a complete selfish ahole when dealing with his kids or with his ex-wife (from all accounts he was like that when married to her as well). When we got married, he wanted my wife to have things done in ways she didn't agree with, he was giving us a fairly large sum of money for a wedding present that he gave all of his kids (a 5 figure amount), she would be crying whenever she got off the phone with him while we were making our wedding arrangements. Finally, with her agreement, I called him up and told him to take his money roll it up real tight and stuff it someplace dark. That didn't exactly win me any points with him.
Unfortunately she has picked up some of the same traits- her need to control all household spending, her need for me to 'jump' when she says 'jump' and her need for me to be busy working every waking moment to serve her. I've seen hersiblings treat their spouses the same way.
Post by: HForrest on October 04, 2005, 09:13:26 PM
If you really would like it to work out, try counseling and see how it goes... but don't wait too long. If you don't feel you're making progress, the prudent thing to do would be to file first. Heartbreaking, but if you don't, it could end up being way worse for you.
Post by: Guest on October 04, 2005, 09:30:11 PM
About half do.
Post by: lifer on October 04, 2005, 10:31:14 PM
Post by: Stand_watie on October 04, 2005, 11:48:43 PM
A few months ago I was in a deeper hole than it sounds like you are in now. Our pastor's first counsel was to "stop digging".
My advice is to get to your pastor, a medical doctor, trusted family members and a therapist/counselor for yourself whether your wife will go or not. I'd probably have killed myself in April without all of the above.
Expect prayers and words of comfort and wisdom from some of the forum members in private. Figure out what is right in your heart and go with it, remember you're the one who is going to have to be looking at your own face in the mirror for the rest of your life.
Best regards
Post by: BrokenPaw on October 05, 2005, 04:28:36 AM
I know everyone says that a child needs two parents, and to some extent that's true. But it's better for the child to have a mom and a dad who do not live together, and who can speak civilly to one another because they rarely have to, than to have a mom and a dad who live together, but cannot get along because one or both hates the other.
The first year of a child's life is a very formative time; the rudiments of language, as well as the models for interaction with others, begin to form in their minds at a very young age. Just because they're not talking doesn't mean that they're not listening. And beyond words, children are very perceptive of emotion. Babies are often not scared of dangerous situations until they see the expression of fear on their parents' faces. Likewise, if your wife cannot help but feel loathing and spite for you, that's what will ultimately become ingrained in the child's mind.
If you feel the relationship is worth saving, by all means, do what you can to save it. But if it's still headed south by the time the baby comes, get out. For your sake, and for the child's.
My advice is worth what you've paid for it.
Namaste,
-BP
Post by: brimic on October 05, 2005, 07:33:32 AM
I talked to my Pastor this morning, he's going to call her later today and see if he can get her to come in and talk to him. I'm not sure how that's going to go, but I wouldn't have talked to him if I didn't have at least a bit of hope.
Post by: Zundfolge on October 05, 2005, 08:22:29 AM
Quote
My Mother-in-law said that she and my wife's siblings have noticed how my wife has been quite mean to them and basicly told me that she can't believe that i've put up with her this long. She actually thinks my wife needs counseling and or some sort of intervention.
How old is your wife? Is she close to menopause? If not she could be Perimenopausal (which is the stage just before menopause ... with some women the emotional stuff is worse during that period than actual menopause, and many women start this in their late '30s).Is your wife a drinker? Any drugs in her past?
You said you'd rather talk to a pastor then a lawyer ... maybe you should talk to both. Work at trying to save the marriage, but get your legal ducks in a row so that if it goes south you can act fast.
I don't know anything about your MIL or your relationship with her, but if things get nasty keep in mind that she'll turn on you in a heartbeat (since in the vast majority of the time the woman gets custody of the children, she's going to make sure she has access to her grandchildren) so be careful ... remember your wife gets this nuttiness from somewhere
.Keep in mind that it doesn't matter how much YOU want this to work, if she's already emotionaly out the door then all is lost.
Post by: brimic on October 05, 2005, 08:47:44 AM
She doesn't drink. She doesn't do drugs, at least since I've known her.
Quote
I don't know anything about your MIL or your relationship with her, but if things get nasty keep in mind that she'll turn on you in a heartbeat (since in the vast majority of the time the woman gets custody of the children, she's going to make sure she has access to her grandchildren) so be careful .
Contrary to the stereortypical mother-in-law, mine is practically a saint, I don't think I've met too many nicer people than her. That being said, I'm still being careful. Quote
remember your wife gets this nuttiness from somewhere
Directly from her father.
Post by: Waitone on October 05, 2005, 09:06:05 AM
If your wife is interested in attempting to fix the problem, start with a thorough physical to rule out medical issues. Pregnancy can cause major issues. Then you might move on to a psychiatrist followed by spiritual and psychological work. My advice is to rule medical and drug induced issues out first.
Yea, and you will feel screwed because of your son. If it comes to divorce make sure you match her attorney nastiness for nastiness because you have a lifetime with which to be bled.
Tough situation but you will come out better.
Post by: Sindawe on October 05, 2005, 10:02:52 AM
Consult with the toughest, nastiest lawyer you can afford.
Post by: Guest on October 05, 2005, 02:06:34 PM
If its not purely physical and she has an actual mental condition, I think its no more fair to say dump her than it would be if she were physically sick. That doesn't mean you owe anyone being miserable the rest of your life, but you did marry her and owe her the basic decency of trying to make sure she's ok before you lawyer up and screw her out of everything.
Post by: Gun Runner on October 05, 2005, 03:33:31 PM
Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil, yeah, the one on TV
I'm not a fan of head shrinker's or self-help books by any means, but I read the book and it makes some damn good points. It's worth a read even if you're single. They probably even have it at Wal-Mart.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on October 05, 2005, 03:49:55 PM
Lots of solid, no BS advice on working it out real-world.
It will help if YOU buy it, start reading it, and see if she's interested.
Post by: Stand_watie on October 05, 2005, 04:44:33 PM
I'd like to add something...everyone told me that my relationship with my in-laws was going to sour with the relationship with the wife going wrong, and everyone was wrong.
I'd like to suggest this, in that regard, treat them decently and kindly and reassure them that they will always hold the same regard in your feelings as they always did, regardless of your wife's actions. Reassure them that you would never punish your child for your own relationship by poisoning him/her against them or withholding them being able to see your child. I'm not saying to sign over the deed to your gold mine, but if you want to make your marriage work your in-laws can be your greatest allies, and having a good relationship with them will pay major future dividends even if it doesn't.
Post by: Oleg Volk on October 05, 2005, 09:29:43 PM
Post by: brimic on October 06, 2005, 01:31:53 AM
Post by: Strings on October 06, 2005, 07:00:44 AM
Post by: Guest on October 06, 2005, 10:48:06 AM
I mean no disrespect to persons involved , or professionals such as Clergy or Medical.
Absolutes - there ain't any. About the only thing that comes close is : "If one ever draws a breath - someday they will not."
It takes TWO folks making things work in a relationship. If one decideds to NOT work on the relationship - It will not work- period. I do not care how much money one spends for Therapy, how many sessions with a Marriage Counselor, Clergy or Pages read in a book. It is not going to work. Might buy time, put off the inevitable, usually though it only causes more pain and money grief. Like getting pregnant , or trying to "buy" the relationship with a new car, furniture. Now you have more bigger problems than you had.
Relationships have to be constantly "worked" from get-go to get-gone to get-death - Complacency in Life is NEVER recommended in any endeavor.
One cannot change people, places or things - only thing a person can change is themselves - and that is NOT an absolute.
Yes medical conditions do affect personalities,and NOT just women with hormones either. Men have hormones too, just for some reason just because a guy stands to piss - he is immune to hormonal changes, drug reactions or the other stereotypical bull-hocky.
Trauma from deaths of kids, family, car wrecks, and you name - can cause problems too. And NO there is not assurance things will ever be " they way they were".
Staying for the sake of a kid(s) so the Church folks won't point fingers at you, and whomever won't talk behind your back is more horse-pucky.
One cannot put a price on Serenity.
I will fight bare-knuckled to protect my Serenity, NO SOB is going to *expletive deleted*ck with mine- period. Mine is that valuable - do not try to take mine. Some have tried, and so far I win every damn time!! I will die defending it need be.
One has to be centered. Another cannot do for you what you already do not have yourself.
Nor can one put a price on a kid(s) mental health being raised in a hellish environment. The lady getting abused, and the crap beat out of her -physically or mentally. John Wayne syndrome does not mean a Guy is not also immune to being hurt physically, or his head totally being messed with.
Relationships do not guarantee all is upbeat and full of happy moments. *expletive deleted*it happens - For better or for worse. Acceptance is the key. Sometimes one has to white knuckle that mother.....and just get past it.
Car wrecks, Cancer, Fires, Floods...Divorce, Death...Bad stuff happens to good folks.
One is responsible to themselves FIRST. If not - they are NOT worth a tinker's damn to the other person in a relationship, the kids, thier boss , or anyone.
Cold Sober, with pad and paper Get totally and brutually honest with oneself. I mean gut-wrenching, teary-eyed, fist-slamming-mad honest. Then read it, read it again.
There is your answer.
Many folks look outward for guidance and direction - reality is - often times the answer is within themselves.
Folks cast f-a-r distances to catch fish - most often the fish are "just right there".
Lots of truth in what the old fella said- "Folks ought not get married until they are 83 years old, and then it may be best to just have sex for awhile and re-think the whole idea. I mean a farmer need not buy a cow until he knows it gives milk - and the cow needs to know if the farmer is gonna treat her right and if he has rough callused hands while squeezing her teats".
I have seen the gates of hell, been singed and smelled the brimstone. I wrote long and hard in my notebook, I cried and I bloodied my knuckles when I read what I wrote. I had to accept who is was, and make some changes back in 1984. For one - drinking was NOT the solution to life's problems. I was the problem.
My first wife, had two Master Degrees in Psych. She decided someone else was better than me at her work. She new the psych game inside and out. She new the questions before the Marriage Counsleor asked them - and she already had not only the answers ahead of time - but the non-verbal responses to.
Bottom line - she wanted the other guy, not me. Only reason she went thru the dog and pony show 1) to perhaps find a lie for herself for what she was doing. 2) Hurt me more.
Years later she lose that man she left me for, he died of cancer. She is raising that daugher - all by herself now she had by him - and we were barely divorced by the time the little girl was born. I know it takes 9 months, I can figure the math. She was lying out her ass all the time she was in the Counselor's office "working on saving a marriage. BS!
Later on...
I re- married the gal I should have married back just out of HS. We were both divorced, she had a son. We just clicked like - hard to explain, but if there is such a thing as 'soul- mates' we were such. She said I was the best, I was the dad her son never had. She was smart, and a damn good Peds nurse. Built a house, we had a ball, and had more fun,it just clicked.
One day, she was feeling poorly, figured it was the extra hours with some emergencies at work. Maybe the stuff the ex/ boys daddy was pulling on the kid.
" I want to raise my son all by myself again"
I packed and left. Arranged to get the rest of my stuff later.
After I was out and gone and just before her attorney sent the divorce papers, we had to discuss something, I can't recall, insurance or somesuch. I asked if she had been to the doctor in regard to her hormones. She did not yell and scream. Instead she asked me "have I been that weird?" I said she had. No meaness, no ugliness, just two "soul- mates" having a rational discussion as we always had done. "Son says I am really being a bitch here of late too". I suggested she see her Endo, and Renal Doc.
We divorced. Afterwhich she called. "PLease come over , the kid is at his dad's for the weekend, and the dog is still crying because he misses you...hell I miss you".
"Steve, I am a great nurse, I totally *expletive deleted*ed up, I am sorry. I keeled over and threw my guts up, and as you know I do not throw up ,nor do I cry except when mad. I had to have son drive me to emergency room, and he with only a learning permit. I was in the hoptital for 3 weeks, my family tried to contact you. My renal doctor "finally" was contacted, he figured out what was wrong - Pancreatitius. Steve - as you know I do not drink, I know you know folks that got Pancratitius from drinking, there can be other reasons too. ( she shared what these were). Steve - my Pancreas totally went nutzoid and messed with my hormones but good. I can access a patient, and get it right, I just goofed and the one time I did NOT listen to my body, and get honest about what was going on - I totally *expletive deleted*ed up".
WE dated if you will for about 3 weeks. We - I guess needed some closure, and to tie up loose ends on some matters.
I walked away.
She tried to contacct me, I preferred email for those things that needed to be handled as does when two folks have been together. I did say bye to the kid, and to the dog.
"Steve, I am sorry, so sorry. I know you too well, you are going to be that Desperado, do your John Galt bit...do be careful and watch your six, and I know how you hate for me to say that".
I detroyed everything about those lives I had, admit the second one was the hardest. I sent her somethings becasue she wanted them, and she knew I would destroy them. She has / had freinds that kept her opprised of my "Desperado" being. I know it was her that sent me something while I was in the hopitial with emergency suregery - only she would know this would be something I would want. I know it was her that sent an anon package when I survived a serious situation - I looked like hell, I survived and the other persons involved did not come out as good as I did. Still are not well.
I know she has the pictures of me on a horse in KY, the unsanctioned shoot in TX and live birds. Me doing some informal training, and the ones with me running a shotgun. Word is she likes the one of me stretched out in a '65 GMC pickup truck bed my Stetson over my face, my Citori propped in the corner of truck bed and the damn dog trying to sneak peppermint out of my pocket.
All history.
Walk away, do not turn back to look at what behind - look straight ahead only.
One foot in front of another. Take one breath at a time, one minute at a time, one hour at a time, one day at a time.
This is how history is made, this is how life is.
Cold, hard, brutal or just plain ugly. So be it. Death is cold and hard, it is forever. Difference is - in life one can change the "right now" about themselves. In death - one is forever is only what folks "might" remember you as being.
"The only thing left of a person's life is that which don't burn".
I choose to live life, mistakes and all. If remembered when I am gone - folks are gonna talk about me - might as well make it fun and interesting as hell.
Run'em
Steve
Post by: SteveS on October 06, 2005, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: sm
It takes TWO folks making things work in a relationship. If one decideds to NOT work on the relationship - It will not work- period. I do not care how much money one spends for Therapy, how many sessions with a Marriage Counselor, Clergy or Pages read in a book.
As someone who is both married and has worked as a marriage counselor, I agree 100%. I don't do marriage counseling anymore, but when I did, I made sure both people were committed to making things better. If not, there was no point in trying. I won't pretend to know what is best for you, but if your wife isn't serious about working on your marriage, then you are better off finding a lawyer that is good at family law.
Post by: Guest on October 06, 2005, 11:45:18 AM
Emails said I was a bastard for my reply - so be it. I am human, and responsible for MY beliefs and actions.
The fella that sired me, I walked away a long time ago. He left to his thing too many years ago. I filled the role of daddy and kept tabs on mom. The fella that sired me, kept finding me and wanting to "right things" - well I gave it a go. He did not want to work things out - he wanted to change me.
I walked away again. He blamed ME for him almost getting robbed. I reminded him I did NOT blame him for the fact I was shot at because he could not keep his mouth shut. I took the blame. I was the fault for "thinking" I could share where I would be once.
He finally found me - again. Actually his kinfolks did by mistake. I told him to *expletive deleted*ck off, he is dead in my eyes. Abuse takes many forms - including mental abuse. I am nobody's doormat.
I have walked away from other 'relationships', like the sibs. One can raise a kid a certain way - no guarntee they will turn out right. Makes no nevermind if one is a deacon in his church either.
I still use the pad and pencil. I still do not like what I read. Still a good tool, even for normal and sane folks...if there is such a thing...
Relationships are what you make them, make 'em good ones. DO NOT spend time in bad relationships, waste of time, better spent doing productive things. One does learn from them - file the info learned for later use.
My pad and pencil says it is time to walk away again, head out and do my living - not existing - living. BIG difference , elsewhere.
TPTB done stole everything I had, even some negative red numbers in the mix. Just goes to show one stays in a "relationship" , be it people, places or things - still costs you.
Only I can change this, and I will. Get thru this semester, free up my mind some, and some time. My role in life is what it is, my relationship with folks, and interacting means I have to do what I do to be centered and serene to do it. I do not need the hindrance of some "relationships".
Gonna be all right. Traveled this road before, one step at a time. Use the history to not repeat some mistakes, use the mistakes of others to prevent some I am sure. How it works.
Funny, I put of learning computers and the Internet, I have better relationships with folks met thru, and thru this medium than folks close by.
I like TX, always wanted to visit CO, Montana always had a lure, then AZ keeps calling for some reason. All I need is the Internet for some classes, the ability to attend a community college with Cisco curricula for labs. Just prefer out in boonies a bit if can, not to far to commute when need be. Maybe I can teach some shotgunning while I do the schooling. I dunno.
Dogs, folks should pay attention to dogs and life. it is called Unconditional. Funny thing about dogs, life just rolls off them like water off a duck's back. I find when I am around or when I had a dog I did better and learned from the dogs. Okay, I learned from Critters period. Dang natural order of things - everything else pays attention to this - except humans. Must be the intellect and opposing digit called a thumb.
Nah...that would be too easy now wouldn't it?
Post by: Guest on October 06, 2005, 01:17:06 PM
I've cut my own losses, too. I'm just disappointed to find so many people for whom that is a first solution, not a last resort.
Post by: brimic on October 06, 2005, 03:04:53 PM
SM- You are one hard man. I sometimes wonder what it would be like to not have to answer to anyone, be able to have the guts to do the things you've done. I don't blame you or judge you one bit for your life. I also like dogs a lot, man's best friend- they don't leave you because you left the toilet seat up once or if you come home from work grouchy one too many times. They always seem willing to listen and even the worlds worst bird dog is still a glorious companion to go hunting grouse with. My wife hates dogs....
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 06, 2005, 03:17:41 PM
SM may be a real hard guy, but if a soulmate comes around, admits her mistakes and is actually trying to make good on it, why the hollywood Lone Wolf dimestore novel BS? Sounds like a mistake to me, she's extended the olive branch after the pancreatitus. What's her phone number, there are some mature professional guys I know who would treat her right.
We all make mistakes. My first marriage was one. But even a blind pig finds an acorn. I'm doing just fine with Wife #2, thank you. And she gets along just fine with my best buddy/dog.
Post by: Larry Ashcraft on October 06, 2005, 05:27:32 PM
1. You aren't Steve
2. You weren't there.
3. This thread is about BRIMIC and his questions. Steve was offering his wisdom for the benefit of the original poster, and I appreciate that. He wasn't asking for advice.