Doctor assisted suicide?Thoughts?

[onions!]

grampster?Back in June of 1998 I took my Grandfather to the Vets hospital in Ann Arbor.I had to drop him off & get too work.According to what he told us(the rest of the family-including Grandma) he was just scheduled for biopsy...The next day I found out from Mom that he'd had exploratory surgery done.Those Doctors had opened him up,found that Cancer had invaded both intestines,his stomach,& lungs.Then (this gets sooo hard to type.I get furious when I even think about it.Gramps was alert,80,& grrrr! )those same doctors removed his bowel & gave him a colostomy.They also let us know that he had only weeks to live.(so why did they even operate?U of M students need practice & old soldiers are cheap?!)

Anyways,after about four days he was moved to the Battle Creek VA.They had (IIRC,it was scheduled to be shut down) a nice Hospice ward.Each man there had a room that would house 8-10 beds easily all to themselves.What made it.What made me thankful was that the Doctors there told us that"because this was a hospice ward they could perscribe meds of a type normally restriced & in amounts beyond what were normally acceptable."More or less-it's been seven years.

He died @ 5:05PM on Labor Day.My new favorite holiday.(anecdotaly,Flip,my canine companion of twelve years died on Labor Day one year earlier...)

Finally my point.It appears that a terminally ill person can be drugged into a(hopefully)restful state for their exit from this world.You just need to die in the right place.

[Guest]

Seems to me that a doctor is as free to choose as is an individual person.

certainly, except that we are putting them in a position of killing people cause they think its what they want. if anyone gets the burdon of pulling the trigger on grandpa why shouldnt it be the family?

[Sindawe]

The physicians job is not to accept the inevitable, but to fight it tooth and nail. We are all going to end up dead, here we have a proffesion that is centered around pushing that moment as far back as possible, and we want THEM to be the one's to pull the trigger? Why?

I don't want the medical profession pulling the trigger, or anybody else aside from the one doing the dying for that matter.  To me, the term "physican assisted" means "Doc, I'm gonna die before the rest of ya do.  We can't change that now.  So what is the best/quickest/least unpleasant for me means to do so at the time and place of my chosing?"  The actual commiting of the act MUST be under the direct, concous control of the one doing the dying (outside of DNR orders).

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Dazzle me with your wisdom, Blackburn.  Explain to me what that "big, big difference" is that I'm so obviously incapable of grasping.

From the encyclopedia entry on Euthanasia:

"Euthanasia, either painlessly putting to death or failing to prevent death from natural causes in cases of terminal illness or irreversible coma. The term comes from the Greek expression for good death. Technological advances in medicine have made it possible to prolong life in patients with no hope of recovery, and the term negative euthanasia has arisen to classify the practice of withholding or withdrawing extraordinary means (e.g., intravenous feeding, respirators, and artificial kidney machines) to preserve life..."

Seems to me that she was both euthanized and starved to death, and that there really isn't much difference at all.




If Schiavo had been capable of expressing her own opinion in the matter, and she had clearly and indisputably voiced her intent to suicide, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.  I wouldn't care.  

But she never did  express her own opinion.  Not after her accident (she was unable to then) and not before her accident (she never documented or recorded any opinion one way or the other).

The only opinion they considered was that of her husband [sic].  "Yup, Your Honor, she wouldn't want to live like this.  That's what she told me twenty years ago.  I remember it clear as day.  Honest."  

That's all the government needed to hear.

But hey, her brain was mush, right?  She wasn't really a person any more.  More like a cucumber.  Her husband said it was OK, so what's all the fuss about?

This isn't disturbing to anyone else?

[Guest]

I'm with ya, HTG

don't care if a man kills himself.  I don't care if he enlists the help of a willing expert.  But I DO care when some third party says that a man ought to be killed for his own good.

Can i be the 3rd party to speak up on behalf of a group of high-ranking senate democrats? (and a few select repubs??

[grampster]

41 mag,

Sorry about gramps.  I lost a father in law and dad to cancer.  FIL lungs, to liver to brain.  We  had a quart bottle of morphine at home that we could, as family members, administer when he wanted it.  Hospice was in charge, but not there all the time..  If you have a loved one dying, get Hospice involved for paleative care.  They can do drugs that they'd throw docs in jail for prescribing.  The problem with morphine is that is scews up your bowels.  I had to leave the house when hospice nurse was trying to pry him loose for a bm.  Not pretty and painful.  I'm a pretty tough guy, but that was not good.  Other than that 15 minute period of purgatory, he was pretty peaceful and comfortable.
 
Dad had colon cancer to liver to brain.  Hospice had him and he was in the best of care in one of their buildings.  He slept mostly, till he faded away.

I just don't think that one should ask another to commit an act that under normal circumstances is reprehensible.  That some people gladly or rather willingly want to do this thing, makes me wonder about whether light or darkness is in them, no matter how "charitable"  act it may seem.  

My further comment on the matter is that I hope I am never in the postion to be confronted with this situation from either side.  If I am, I guess I'll have to deal with it then.  

I stand by my original comment, and expand it to say that if  the effort to allow assisted suicide was rather directed at getting the government out of the drug business, perhaps this problem would solve itself.  There would be, imho, more dignity in that effort than fighting for utilizing the methodology we use for disposing of pets.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I want to be painlessly euthanized at the end of my days, not starved to death, not dying in agony, not going senile. Get the difference?

Those who want to go out with no dignity in a dirty bed surrounded by paid workers who don't really give a damn are welcome to it.

I must have misunderstood your remarks.  My apologies.

[Antibubba]

If I am suffering at the end of my life, I do not want a doctor to be able to end my life.  I want the doctor to be able to give medications which are of sufficient potency and dosage to deal with the pain-even if that amount might be enough to kill a person.

The difference may be subtle, but there is one.

[Iain]

There was a news article here the other day about the suicide rate amongst veterinarians. It's very high. I expect that, although they knew the reality, they didn't go into the profession to dish out death on a regular basis, yet that is what they have to do.

[Guest]

There was a news article here the other day about the suicide rate amongst veterinarians. It's very high. I expect that, although they knew the reality, they didn't go into the profession to dish out death on a regular basis, yet that is what they have to do.

Considering how they chose to leave the world i have a hard time imagining that they had too much trouble with the prespect of handing out death.

Maybe they just didnt like the absurd education/effort vs. pay ratio.

[Iain]

I meant to indicate that the 'dishing out death' aspect was one theory put forward.

However, a member of the British Veterinarians Association says: "When they are suffering themselves from emotional problems due to the stress, they may more readily decide to take their own life because they are used to euthanising animals who are suffering" - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4310596.stm

Who knows. Point is - slightly concerned about what we would be asking doctors to do, and the implications for them, even if they thought they could handle it.