Author Topic: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings  (Read 5981 times)

roo_ster

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I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« on: January 29, 2007, 09:59:49 AM »
http://www.dallasobserver.com/blogs/?p=2142


Quote
January 12, 2007
Exiles in the Heartland, Part 1
Bible Girl: The Unfair Park Religion Column

Once youve lost your innocence, you dont think about it much anymore. We accustom ourselves so quickly to compromise, to an acceptable level of sin. Really, its our only line of defense from a loss for which there is no remedy.

That and depression.

One day, though, youll get a smack-in-the-face reminder of what you were, and what youll never be again. If youre a parent like me, you want to grab your kid and spirit him away to a safe place where a semblance of innocence can grow.

If youre a conservative Christian in a generally hostile culture, youre continually faced with a choice: fight or flight. Now Momma can fight. But when it comes to my 7-year-old son, I figure hell have plenty of battling to do as an adult, when hes slimed every day with greasy gobs of pop-culture oobleck.

So for now, I say flee. Because I dont want him to turn out like me.

It was Christmas at my fathers house, in a small town in Wisconsin. Fond du Lac, Foot of the Lake. (My friends and I preferred to call it by its alternate French translation, Bottom of the Lake.) Piles of presents under a 12-foot, lavishly decorated tree  electronic doodads, expensive video games (Viva Pinata  whaa?), tiny teenybopper clothes for tiny people  all in all, a degree of largesse my sister and I had never experienced as kids. Which is cool. Ill keep those twinges of jealousy all to myself.

Now my dad has a second family, and I have two half-sisters and a half-brother who are way younger than me. The youngest, the boy, is 12. I couldnt praise these kids enough. I look at them and I see promise, endless promise. Most of all, a certain innocence. Not the ignorant kind, but the poise and mental clarity that comes from having a firm moral compass. One thats directly related to their parents creative and consistent Christian guidance from the cradle on up.

When Im around them, I must say, I see myself as old, worn-out, maybe a little stained. Bitten by life. I laugh at it all, my tangled family past, but my humor has a bite to it. Im from the practice family, I said at Christmas to a relative too young to have known my parents when they were still married.

Now my half-siblings are different. When they laugh, they just laugh.

There is no sting.

The day I got up to Wisconsin my dad unearthed a yellowed news clipping from 1980. Gack. There I was in my tinted disco glasses, looking supremely awkward. Id just won some state contest for editorial cartooning, and the local paper ran a brief story.

I barely recalled having scratched out a cartoon in pen and ink one day for my high-school newspaper after authorities in Montello, Wisconsin, had purged certain books from the town library. At least I think thats what happened. A Day in the Life of Montello, I called it, and believe me, it was badly drawn stuff, but it ended pointedly with a cannon aimed squarely at the librarys front door. Ever so subtle.

You know I pressed probably the only button those crusty old print-journalist judges had left. Censorship! There was no other reason for my cartoon to win.

Such tasty irony seemed lost on my dad when he and his wife Carla began to describe one of the biggest news stories of the year in little Fond du Lac, a community crisis that forced them and just about everyone else in town to choose sides.

Ah, theres nothing like a small-town hissy fit. And this one had it all: religion and sex. Hysterical cries of Censorship! Rumors of a vast right-wing conspiracy, here in the heart of Americas Dairyland. Plus a meddling state attorney general. A radical nun. And a straight-A, straight-arrow high school sophomore who well call Caitlin. (Thats not her real name.)

The story reeled out over our visit, piece by piece. In the snow-covered north woods, or in the living room on the couch where I urged my little brother to Whack that girl! Whack her hard! with the shovel in Viva Pinata. (A strategy, by the way, that will cost you dearly. But it feels so good.)

One day Caitlin, whos 15, was reading one of the assigned books for her advanced English class at Fond du Lac High School, and she found herself getting really uncomfortable. Shed worked her way past an earlier scene where the white-trash girl does a handstand, revealing her crotch, but this chapter graphically described a rapecomplete with explicit descriptions of body parts, the wetness, the pain.

Caitlin and her family are devout Christians. And she did what kids do in families where rebellion isnt the presumed rite of passage: She brought it to her parents. Look at the book were reading, Caitlin said. Its pornography. Nobody can believe this.

The book didnt line up with the values shed been taught at home. Yet her teacher had told her to read it. Now what was she supposed to do?

Caitlins mother, Lorrie, read it herself for the first time and was shocked. What about the kids in class who might have been sexually abused themselves? How would they feel about engaging in class discussions about a child rape?

Certainly its important to learn about the devastating effects of sexual abuse, Lorrie thought. But is it necessary to know all the graphic details?

Surely youre wondering what the book is, and perhaps youve figured it out. But lets back up for a moment. Like we tell our kids: Stop. Think.

Your kid is 15. She knows about the birds and bees, but not from first-hand acquaintance. Yes, she is innocent in some ways, and thats the way you want it to stay, at least for those 18 years shes under your roof. You know enough about the emotional cost of premature sexual involvement, the consequences of sexual abuse, the pernicious grip of pornography, that you want to carve out a space where a kids conscience can grow  unmolested, so to speak.

That, after all, is your prerogative as a parent. And you dont want some ideologically motivated teacher or school official usurping it.

Are you with me here? If youre a parent, Im pretty sure you are. Unless youre one of those folks who likes to involve their kids as guinea pigs in clever social experiments, in which case, hey, its all about you anyway.

The book is Maya Angelous autobiographical classic, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, first published in 1969. I read it myself as an adult, and nothing about it particularly shocked me. Actually, I liked it a lot. What stuck with me most was its brilliant evocation of small-town life on the wrong side of the tracks, of the rhythms of church, the country and the one place in town where every soul gathered, the general store in 1930s Stamps, Arkansas.

Read it again, my dads wife suggested. But this time read it through the eyes of a 15-year-old.

I picked up my copy and re-read parts of it, and sure enough, peering through a different lens, I saw things very differently. Caged Bird deals with important themes: racism and prejudice. Recovering strength amidst tragedy. Even the importance of faith. But some of the material is undeniably explicit, and it makes an indelible impression precisely because of Angelous skill as a writer.

Lorrie was upset. But she resolved to handle her objections in a respectful manner. She approached Caitlins teacher, then worked her way up the schools chain of command, informing them in private that she didnt want her daughter to read any further in the book or participate in class discussions about it. And, she asked, just how did it end up in the sophomore curriculum to begin with, when her research indicated that most school districts avoided Caged Bird because of its adult content, and its inclusion in high-school curricula had proved controversial in many other locales?

Since parents hold the primary responsibility for their childrens education  or so the district righteously proclaimed in its core values statement  why werent they informed about the schools choice of such a potentially objectionable work?

While school authorities mulled those questions, Lorrie and her husband, Dave, requested an interim solution for Caitlin. She was parked at the end of the hallway in a study carrel, where she worked through an alternate but hardly parallel work, Mark Twains The Prince and the Pauper.

Little did she know she would trigger an international incident, as Lorrie calls it, in which one familys act of conscience would be compared to book-burning in Nazi Germany. Because school officials and community members wouldnt exercise nearly as much discretion as Caitlins family, and soon theyd tap into a citys simmering prejudice against culturally conservative Christians.

The acceptable bigotry. Julie Lyons

Next week in Bible Girl: The defecatory substance hits the fan in Fondy.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2007, 10:00:21 AM »
http://www.dallasobserver.com/blogs/?p=2193

Quote
January 19, 2007
Exiles in the Heartland, Part 2
Filed under: Bible Girl: The Unfair Park Religion Column
Maya Angelou had one comment about the Fond du Lac controversy: Im saddened.

(Click here for Part 1 of this story.)

This crowd was itching for a fight. About all the wrong things.

The Save us from the Christian Taliban placard was a pretty good indication.

David and Lorrie knew something was odd the moment they walked into the high school on the evening of November 21, 2006, and saw that the committee meeting had been shifted to a much bigger room.

They stepped into a tense environment. Some 80 people had showed up, including several English teachers from the high school, plus folks theyd never seen before. And suddenly, it seemed, this was all about their Christian beliefs.

Religion? Whod mentioned religion?

David and Lorrie were taken aback. Up until now, their complaint about including Maya Angelous I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings  an autobiographical novel that contains several sexually explicit passages  on the curriculum of their daughters sophomore advanced English class had been handled professionally and more or less confidentially by the Fond du Lac School District, which had convened a nine-member Reconsideration Committee to discuss the parents concerns.

This meeting, the committees second, hadnt even been posted; the district, in fact, would later be accused of violating open-meeting laws. So who were all these people, and how did they hear about it?

David and Lorrie sat down. Theyd come with a handful of alliesincluding my dad and his wife, two of some 50 or so community leaders theyd contacted about their casebut clearly, this audience was overwhelmingly on the other side.

David spotted the Christian Taliban sign first.

Look behind you, David said to his wife.

Lorrie glanced at the sign and turned back ghost-white, David says.

Not long afterward, she slipped him a note. Can I die now?

At the first committee meeting in October, David and Lorrie had spent an hour presenting their case: Caged Bird simply wasnt appropriate for 15- and 16-year-olds because of its sexual content. The graphic details of Maya Angelous life are tragic, Lorrie wrote to the district superintendent, but potentially evoke a dangerous level of emotional and sexual awakening that a classroom teacher is absolutely unprepared to guide the students through.

There are many other books, she continued, which would well serve the learner outcomes without the necessity to shock the reader and violate the parental rights to form their own childs sexual identity with appropriate&values-based education.

Heres what David and Lorrie asked the district to do in their complaint, which consisted of a two-page letter dated October 6, a district form and 10 pages of supporting materials: Remove Caged Bird from the districts curriculum.

Heres what David and Lorrie did not ask the district to do: Ban Caged Bird from the school library or censor the content somehow.

Nor did they invoke their conservative Christian beliefs at any time. To them, it wasnt a religious issue. It was a matter of parents exerting the primary influence on their childrens education.

Yet here they were at Round 2 of the Reconsideration Committee, and the issue had scattered into a dozen red herrings.

Nearly 40 people had signed up to speak. The chair of the committee opened with a statement that kept a clear focus on the issues at hand. This wasnt a matter of banning or censoring, she said; the committee had been asked to reconsider Caged Birds inclusion in the curriculum.

Her words were promptly ignored.

What ensued instead was oddly emotional blather, like the guy who got up and spoke teary-eyed about how Caged Bird was the best book hed ever read as an adult, that it changed his life. And?

Some decried this horrendous act of banning and censoring, with one speaker likening David and Lorries complaint to book-burning in Nazi Germany.

Others expressed how frightening it would be to live in a world of dangerously sheltered children like Caitlin.

Maya Angelou is a wonderful poet, one teacher protested.

Which, of course, was never a point of contention.

Christianity was frequently thrust into the equation, which puzzled David and Lorrie. Why did it seem like their religious beliefs were on trial?

What they wouldnt find out until later was that much of this crowd and its hostile, off-point position had been stirred up by an e-mail distributed to Fond du Lac Democrats two days earlier. It was written by then-Wisconsin Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager, a Fond du Lac resident, and forwarded in successive waves by a county Democratic Party leader and Sister Stella Storch, a nun who is well-known locally for her public protests on justice issues.

(Sister Storch belongs to the Congregation of Sisters of St. Agnes. The mission-statement page on their Web site proclaims Justice, Peace, Ecology. I had to scroll down quite a ways before I found any mention of Sister Storchs husband. You know, that guy  Jesus Christ.)

The e-mail  titled Censorship in Fond du Lac Schools: Letter from Peg  contains a summary of the dispute as well as bigoted babble.

An extreme right-wing Christian from the Fond du Lac community is requesting the school district pull a classic work from the advanced English sophomore-reading curriculum, it begins.

The letter goes on to praise Maya Angelou and Caged Bird, and notes that the author recited a poem at Bill Clintons first presidential inauguration. Whether Ms. Angelous politics plays into this effort to ban the book is anyones guess, the letter says. Lautenschlager summarizes the familys objections, then claims that Lorrie is circulating petitions at right-wing churches to present to the school district.

Tragically, the letter concludes, this is another example of the extreme right wing attempting to force their own ideals and values about education on all students of Fond du Lac in a manner which will preclude them from having the education given to students throughout the nation. Id encourage you to act.

Lets see: An extreme right-wing Christian&circulating petitions at right-wing churches&another example of the extreme right wing&

Just what is this information based on? And when did the issue become a familys conservative Christian beliefs?

What about Lautenschlagers assertion that students deprived of Caged Bird will miss out on the education given to students throughout the nation?

Hysterical nonsense. Caged Bird isnt even used in all of the sophomore English classes at Fond du Lac High School. Caitlins teacher chose it; others did not. So plenty of students have been denied the Caged Bird experience, with no apparent ill effects, since Fondy High has a reputation throughout the state for educational excellence.

Furthermore, scholars disagree on the literary merits of Caged Bird. My estimation of it is considerably higher than Lorries, but the book has its detractors; some of them criticize Angelous shifting point-of-view and mixed metaphors.

Dallas-area school districts arent falling over themselves to put Caged Bird in front of their students. We found that Caged Bird is one of many approved works in Garland and Grand Prairie, but its not required, and no teacher is electing to use it right now. (In Garland, if parents disapprove of an assigned book, their child will be given an alternative.) Some districts, such as Cedar Hill and Plano, assign an excerpt of Caged Bird with no objectionable content  though I also talked to a young woman who read Caged Bird in its entirety as an eighth-grader in Cedar Hill ISD. There was no parental notification, and her mother isnt too happy about that.

We also asked the Dallas Independent School District about Caged Bird, but we havent heard back. Asking DISD for information on even the most innocuous matters is kind of like putting a message in a bottle.

Yesterday I called Lautenschlager and Richard Mantz, chairman of the Democratic Party of Fond du Lac County, to ask them about the letter they circulated. (In case youre wondering, every other human being in Fond du Lac has a German surname.) Mantz told me hed personally checked out some of the info in the letter and heard from multiple sources that David and Lorrie had been circulating petitions in churches, something the couple vehemently denies. He was told that Lorrie and David had enlisted several pastors to speak on their behalf at the meeting. Only one did.

Mantz thought it important to represent the pro-Caged Bird side, so he forwarded the letter to some 200 people. Many showed up at the meeting.

I asked Mantz about the inflammatory language, and he sidestepped the question a few times. Finally he admitted he hadnt edited Lautenschlagers letter at all (Do you know who she is? he asked) and referred me to the former state attorney general, who was voted out of office in November. She hasnt called me back yet.

Message in a bot-tle&

I happen to be quite familiar with the church David and Lorrie attend, by the way. It is hardly a right-wing church. Its just your basic evangelical church. There is no vast right-wing conspiracy here, just a few lonely Calvinists.

But really, the story has a happy ending. The Fond du Lac School District came up with an eminently sensible solution, one suggested by one of the commenters on last weeks Bible Girl column. It declined to remove Caged Bird from the curriculum. In the future, though, parents will be informed whenever a teacher makes such a controversial choice for the class reading list. (The American Library Association lists Caged Bird as No. 3 on its list of Frequently Challenged Books from 1990-2000; click here for the rest.) The teacher will provide the student with an alternate reading assignment if the parents object. David and Lorrie agreed with this compromise.

Their daughter, by the way, is sick of the whole thing.

The parents are exhausted. And reeling. Friendships have been lost. For weeks, they couldnt go to any public place without overhearing conversation about them, or catching a pointing finger from the corner of their eye.

Who knew theyd have to wage total war simply to protect a childs conscience?

Is it even worth it?

For David and Lorrie, it all goes back to innocence. When its gone, its gone.

Do you remember the first time you ever came across pornographic images, or the first time you read a sexually explicit passage in a book or magazine?

You remember it clearly, dont you?

Lorrie put it best. There is no delete button. Julie Lyons

Dallas Observer Editorial Assistant Kaitlin Ingram assisted in the reporting for this column.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2007, 10:03:04 AM »
Reason #5674 why I'll work three jobs if I have to to send my kids to private school.

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Vodka7

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2007, 10:57:43 AM »
Everybody on this board mocked the schools that removed peanut butter from the lunchrooms because some kids were allergic.  I'm sure quite a few of you would be in an uproar if a school removed ham sandwhiches and switched to all-beef hotdogs to cater to some muslims.

But some Christian wants a book removed from the curriculum because she has a problem with it?  Oh no, then it's time to support an unreasonable minority.  And maybe I'm out of touch with the red states, but up here a sixteen year old in an advanced english class is expected to be able to read a challenging passage without complaint.  If she didn't want to read the book, she should have taken an F and shut up about it--this choose-your-own-education stuff is a load of crap.

Marnoot

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2007, 11:15:43 AM »
A school forcing someone to read something which violates their religious beliefs is akin to forcing Muslim students to eat ham sandwiches because everyone else is. Forcing someone to do something that violates their religious beliefs is you forcing your beliefs on them. I agree that the standard curriculum shouldn't be changed at the whim of any given minority, but alternatives should be provided as happened here in the end. I would be outraged if Muslim or Jewish students were forced to eat pork at lunch, and I am just as outraged when Christian students are forced to read pornographic material.

Furious Styles

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2007, 11:22:15 AM »
Most of you may have never heard of the controversy surrounding the showing of portions of the claymation video "The Amazing Mr. Bickford" to a high school English class in rural north-central PA 12 years ago. I'm surprised that I was able to even find this reference on the 'net:

http://www.mit.edu/activities/safe/news/frank-zappa-video

The article is somewhat long but an amazing read about what happens when values clash in a small town.

A portion of the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6UgzNJfpfA

More from Bickford: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoXtr5-TG7o

brimic

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2007, 11:27:15 AM »
Life is tough.
Sometimes you will be forced to read a book that you consider to be trash, other times you will have to take out the trash for your employer. Heck, I had to poke my finger several times to draw blood for biology and physiology classes in high school and college which goes against my natural instincts about not harming myself. I got over it. maybe kids are so spoiled or sheltered these days, or perhaps they have been sensitized by their own parents or upbringing that they have to squauk every time they get mildly offended. rolleyes
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ONE-SHOT-ONE

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2007, 11:39:33 AM »
Vodka7 "Everybody on this board mocked the schools that removed peanut butter from the lunchrooms because some kids were allergic."
um, no i did not! but if you are allergic to peanut butter and are not smart enough NOT to eat it, i doubt that the english teacher will give you a "F".

brimic: "Life is tough."
 yep and it is my job to protect my kids from the more vile aspects of it for as long and as much as is possible. (thats why mine were home schooled!).

forceing a 15 year old of either sex to read things that sound like the should be published in penthouse not school books is criminal.


Vodka7

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 11:40:56 AM »
A school forcing someone to read something which violates their religious beliefs is akin to forcing Muslim students to eat ham sandwiches because everyone else is. Forcing someone to do something that violates their religious beliefs is you forcing your beliefs on them. I agree that the standard curriculum shouldn't be changed at the whim of any given minority, but alternatives should be provided as happened here in the end. I would be outraged if Muslim or Jewish students were forced to eat pork at lunch, and I am just as outraged when Christian students are forced to read pornographic material.

I can see your point, but she wasn't asking for an alternative, she was asking to have a book removed from the curriculum.  And when she was presented with an alternative work (the article doesn't provide a timeline, but I would assume that she didn't get an alternative right away), she still proceeded with trying to get the book removed.

Also--no one forces anyone to eat a school lunch, and every high school I went two had two choices of lunch every day.  So even if your meals were state funded, no one ever had to chose between going hungry or eating something they objected to.

But really, your analogy suggests that Evangelicism has some kind of mandate against anything that concerns sex or nudity, which is not an understanding that I share.  (Fistful, or anyone else, please correct me if I'm wrong.)  The passages are descriptive, but not pornographic.  If she can't handle the passages in their contexts, she shouldn't be in the advanced class, and she should have taken the F she deserves for not doing the assigned work.

Eleven Mike

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2007, 11:50:44 AM »
Read the articles.  The parents weren't talking about religious objections.   This is about public schools assigning literature that is unnecessarily obscene.  The curriculum in question is purposely chosen to shock and offend.  Why?  Why should a teacher expose other people's children to such things and without informing them?  Is that really necessary to teach high school "advanced English"?   

Where does the parent talk about her "Christian values"?  She doesn't.
Quote
Lorrie was upset. But she resolved to handle her objections in a respectful manner. She approached Caitlins teacher, then worked her way up the schools chain of command, informing them in private that she didnt want her daughter to read any further in the book or participate in class discussions about it. And, she asked, just how did it end up in the sophomore curriculum to begin with, when her research indicated that most school districts avoided Caged Bird because of its adult content, and its inclusion in high-school curricula had proved controversial in many other locales?

Quote
And suddenly, it seemed, this was all about their Christian beliefs.

Religion? Whod mentioned religion?

David and Lorrie were taken aback. Up until now, their complaint about including Maya Angelous I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings  an autobiographical novel that contains several sexually explicit passages  on the curriculum of their daughters sophomore advanced English class had been handled professionally and more or less confidentially by the Fond du Lac School District, which had convened a nine-member Reconsideration Committee to discuss the parents concerns.

brimic

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2007, 11:57:50 AM »
Quote
This is about public schools assigning literature that is unnecessarily obscene.  The curriculum in question is purposely chosen to shock and offend.  Why?

Why? Because the wisconsin school system is run by a powerful lobby of left-wing nutjobs who probably use Oprah to pick books for literature classes- but that may be a topic for another discussion. Maybe the student will learn that the wisconsin government and school system is run by semi-retarded marxist syncophants and will use this new found knowledge to make an effort to find a new state to live in after schooling is complete. I wish I would have learned that lesson a decade or so ago. Having to read a sexually explicit trash novel is a small price to pay for that level of enlightenment.
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Furious Styles

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2007, 12:00:15 PM »
Jee - sum.

Some of you people need to back off the coffeepot slowly.

Vodka7

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2007, 12:21:27 PM »
I read the articles.  The family claims its not a religious battle, but they're still trying to inflict their religiously-informed morals on the entire student population.  Instead of asking a college professor or librarian to speak on their behalf against the book's legitimacy in an advanced curriculum, they had a preacher do so.  Instead of asking for an alternative book, they sought removal of the original book.

And it's not an obscene book.  It's a book with a few sexually explicit (but far from titillating) passages.  Once the rape scene started, the girl should have been smart enough to say "OK, she's going to get raped, that will probably affect her later in life and that's all I need to know, so I'm going to skip the passages I don't like and read the rest of the novel."  Still reads the book, can still participate in class discussions, doesn't rob other students of their educations, and avoids the problem altogether.

Instead, no, it's time to strap on the crusading boots and fix a personal problem at the district level.

If you can't read critically or at least selectively, you should not be in an advanced English class.

Perd Hapley

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2007, 12:21:42 PM »
What!!  I don't drink coffee, it's ag'in my Mormon values. 

Just kidding.   smiley
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Marnoot

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2007, 01:01:42 PM »
Quote from: Vodka7
Once the rape scene started, the girl should have been smart enough to say "OK, she's going to get raped, that will probably affect her later in life and that's all I need to know, so I'm going to skip the passages I don't like and read the rest of the novel."  Still reads the book, can still participate in class discussions, doesn't rob other students of their educations, and avoids the problem altogether.
I agree for the most part. In general, my full agreement would depend on just how graphic it was, and whether it's something that could just be skipped, or whether it's essentially the whole work assigned. But an alternative offering solves those problems anyway. While I can't speak to this book specifically as I haven't read it, I do question the educational value of many works pushed by some English curricula, but that's another discussion entirely.

Quote from: fistful
What!!  I don't drink coffee, it's ag'in my Mormon values.
T'wouldn't ebben if i'tweren't, too much caffeine angries up my ADD! laugh

roo_ster

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2007, 01:20:20 PM »
Vodka7:

Thanks for proving the underlying point of the article with such gusto.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2007, 01:56:04 PM »
I drink coffee. Lots of coffee. I like coffee. Thank y'all for not drinking coffee. That means there's more coffee for me...
 
Anyone who "knows what's good for me," whether they're from Washington, or from the ritual and meetin' place up the road, makes me VERY VERY nervous.
 
Personally, I'd have just said that the thing obviously was meant for more mature audiences. PERIOD.
 
Then again, we have people who want to tear one of the greatest abolitionist books off of the shelves because one of the characters is named *let's not go there* Jim... Sad...
 
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RevDisk

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2007, 04:05:38 PM »
Vodka7:

Thanks for proving the underlying point of the article with such gusto.


I wish my high school's largest religious worries were banned books.  Oh wait, To Kill a Mockingbird was banned.  So was Huck Finn.  The head loonie's name was Carol Miller and somehow got on the school board.  She had a thing about dinosaurs.  I still remember her idea that dinosaurs were not specifically meantioned in the Bible, thus should be banned from being taught.  I swear to the Gods I couldn't make that kind of thing up.  I remember the "Pro Family Resolution", specifically attacking gay or lesbian students.  I remember the school administration looking the other way in regards to harassment of non-Christians students.  Scars fade, education does not.  It was definitely an educational experience.

All of this was back in 1996.  A decade later, Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District put down intelligent design.  I was amused to hear Pat Robertson say "I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city."  Bunch of kids from Dover put up a large sign saying "In Darwin We Trust" in responce.


After a google search, I found this interesting article.  http://www.fdlreporter.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061129/FON0101/611290519/1985   Makes the whole matter seem a lot less sinister than portrayed in this article.  Both parties talked the matter over, and came to a compromise.  The book was not removed, and parents get notified well in advance. 

Obviously, I was not there and don't know first hand the severe persecution of Dave and Lorrie Gneiser, but they went on TV a couple times for interviews and they say they're happy with the outcome.   
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Vodka7

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2007, 06:51:12 PM »
Vodka7:

Thanks for proving the underlying point of the article with such gusto.

You Christians can parade around calling your crusade "values-based" like the father does and claim that it has nothing at all to do with religion all you want, but don't think for a minute any intelligent American is going to see it for anything other than what it is.

And as for this school notification crap, how lazy can a parent be?  Did he talk to his daughter?  Did he even see what books she's bringing home from school every day?  Oh no.  That's too much work.  Let's have the school send home letters that the same children we aren't talking to won't bother to give us anyway.  That will work much better.  And since we get to choose our own reading material in English classes now, I want alternative Science books that don't mention evolution, the age of the Earth, or dinosaurs.  Because really, teachers are lazy and overpaid anyway, they should have to teach two things simultaneously whenever a student objects.  Unless a student objects to the alternate book too, in which case, hey, why don't you just pick something else out yourself.  Oh, and Calculus is against my religion.

Edit:

Oh, wait, I forgot.  Let me rephrase that last bit:

Teaching calculus to 15 and 16 year olds could possibly trigger a mathematical awakening that the teacher could not possibly be equipped to handle.  There are other maths that could be taught that would be more in line with a values-based education.

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2007, 07:28:58 PM »
The problem is the mandate that people have to turn their children over to the government to be re-educated and we have to pay for it, even if childless.

Get government out of the education business.

Lower our taxes and let the private schools take over the task of teaching the children.

Unhappy with your child's education? Contract some else to do a better job.

Perd Hapley

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2007, 08:23:30 PM »
From the article that RevDisk linked earlier, which actually paints the concerned parents in a very good light, while leaving out some of the anti-Christian hysteria reported by articles in jfruser's posts.   

Quote
Both parents said they were disturbed by what they call a graphic, sexually explicit description of the sex act in Angelou's autobiography, but they never asked that the book be banned or censored.

"We asked that students be given another (book) choice that could teach the same kind of relevant themes. We wanted it removed as assigned curriculum and we wanted parents to have informed consent," Lorrie Gneiser said.


Quote
The parents' first meeting with the district's nine-member standing curriculum committee occurred Oct. 30. At that meeting the Gneisers presented written statements from up to 50 other parents expressing the same concerns about Angelou's book.


The Gneisers decided to take the request a step further by requesting a second meeting, as allowed through the process, so other parents could be heard. That meeting was held Nov. 21.


Vodka, your knee-jerk reaction is so stereotypical that I'm beginning to hope you are joking.  If you would quickly scan through the three articles that are linked, you would see that the parents brought up a concern with which other parents identified, and asked that their children be allowed to read other material.  This is totally unrelated to Christianity or any other religion.           

The comparison with science and math texts is completely bogus.  If you can't teach literature without having teenagers read graphic depictions of child rape, then maybe you should expect parents to complain. 
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gunsmith

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2007, 08:36:26 PM »
Terrorist mathematics ruined my high school years.
 There was radical teaching by my math teacher, he had this  terrorist hand book!
You may have heard of the dreaded Al Gerbra? grin

If you do not believe in intelligent design, you have not read enough sci-fi.
I suggest the "forever war" series, the "riverworld" series and a few good
PKD books like "Divine Invasion" and "V.A.L.I.S"

Jesus is my Savior, I don't feel threatened by reading just about anything.
IMO "caged bird" is incredibly pompous and boring, when I first read the article I thought
they were talking about some Toni Morrison book whose title escaped my memory because it was so dreadful.

Painted Bird is far superior to Caged Bird any day.
Why do people think Maya Angelou is so special?
People who adore her are all for the uber liberal agenda.
For poetry, give me ee any old day.
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roo_ster

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2007, 08:57:13 AM »
Vodka7:

Thanks for proving the underlying point of the article with such gusto.


I wish my high school's largest religious worries were banned books. 
...
Obviously, I was not there and don't know first hand the severe persecution of Dave and Lorrie Gneiser, but they went on TV a couple times for interviews and they say they're happy with the outcome.
I would once again point out that nobody wanted to ban any books in the school district in the OP(s).

The outcome was good & fair, but they voiced no little distress at the horked up process.

----------------------------

Vodka7:

Thanks for proving the underlying point of the article with such gusto.

You Christians can parade around calling your crusade "values-based" like the father does and claim that it has nothing at all to do with religion all you want, but don't think for a minute any intelligent American is going to see it for anything other than what it is.

And as for this school notification crap, how lazy can a parent be?  Did he talk to his daughter?  Did he even see what books she's bringing home from school every day?  Oh no.  That's too much work.  Let's have the school send home letters that the same children we aren't talking to won't bother to give us anyway.  That will work much better.  And since we get to choose our own reading material in English classes now, I want alternative Science books that don't mention evolution, the age of the Earth, or dinosaurs.  Because really, teachers are lazy and overpaid anyway, they should have to teach two things simultaneously whenever a student objects.  Unless a student objects to the alternate book too, in which case, hey, why don't you just pick something else out yourself.  Oh, and Calculus is against my religion.

Edit:

Oh, wait, I forgot.  Let me rephrase that last bit:

Teaching calculus to 15 and 16 year olds could possibly trigger a mathematical awakening that the teacher could not possibly be equipped to handle.  There are other maths that could be taught that would be more in line with a values-based education.
Vodka7:

Once again, your help in displaying the intolerance and unreasonable fears of particular segments of our society has been invaluable.  The Onion could not have done half as well.

The greatest portion of your questions (or at least those sentences you wrote than end in a question mark) could be answered by reading the text of the articles I posted and the article RevDisk was so kind to provide a link to.

In the spirit of helpfulness, however, I will address your questions directly.
Quote from: Vodka7
And as for this school notification crap, how lazy can a parent be?  Did he talk to his daughter?  Did he even see what books she's bringing home from school every day?
The parents did, indeed speak with their daughter, as the daughter raised the matter with her parents.  That wacky Christian family seems to have fostered an environment of open discussion in their household. 

Seeing the books a child brings home does not necessarily set off warning bells, as copies of the book in question do not come with labels reading, "WARNING: Explicit child-rape depicted in this book."  At least none of the copies I have handled at B&N have this warning label.  Is your experience different from mine?

Given the school district's stated core values,
Quote
Since parents hold the primary responsibility for their childrens education  or so the district righteously proclaimed in its core values statement  why werent they informed about the schools choice of such a potentially objectionable work?
a parent ought to have a reasonable expectation of notification when such material is to be assigned.

Fond du Lac School District's Belief Statements.  Be sure to note bullet numbers: 2, 4, 7, and 8.

The actions taken by the parents in this case were completely in line with the school district's own belief statements and merely ensuring that the district to adhere to them.

The rest of your statements are not really worth responding to, but are helpful indicators of your attitudes.  Again, thank you for providing an example of the type that transcends parody.


-----------------

The problem is the mandate that people have to turn their children over to the government to be re-educated and we have to pay for it, even if childless.

Get government out of the education business.

Lower our taxes and let the private schools take over the task of teaching the children.

Unhappy with your child's education? Contract some else to do a better job.
Ron:

Where do I sign up?  That would be a wonderful solution.


Regards,

roo_ster

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Bogie

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2007, 11:39:48 AM »
You know, it's gonna be really fun when Jen's daughter starts bringing home stuff like that...
 
Cuz I'm gonna bitch.
 
May be some interesting headlines "Agnostic protests school reading list."
 
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: I Know Why the Caged Christophobe Sings
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2007, 12:00:06 PM »
You know, it's gonna be really fun when Jen's daughter starts bringing home stuff like that...
 
Cuz I'm gonna bitch.
 
May be some interesting headlines "Agnostic protests school reading list."
 


You just know your agnosticism will be criticized as not "pure" enough (because "real" agnostics don't think that way) or that you are actually a closet Deist, if not Christian.

I would carefully phrase your arguments to completely leave your religious beliefs out of it and see what labels get thrown at you.
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