Two Chicago politicians want the National Guard to fight crime

[tyme]

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/04/state-reps-want-to-fight-violence-with-national-guards-help.html

Two state representatives called on Gov. Pat Quinn Sunday to deploy the Illinois National Guard to safeguard Chicago's streets.

Chicago Democrats John Fritchey and LaShawn Ford said they want Quinn, Mayor Richard Daley and Chicago Police Supt. Jody Weis to allow guardsmen to patrol streets and help quell violence. Weis said he did not support the idea because the military and police operate under different rules.

"Is this a drastic call to action? Of course it is," Fritchey said. "Is it warranted when we are losing residents to gun violence at such an alarming rate? Without question. We are not talking about rolling tanks down the street or having armed guards on each corner."

I almost want them to do this so the rest of the country is scared straight from this sort of nonsense once they see the results.

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

Me too.

I'm just surprised that it has not been done yet.

[RocketMan]

What's a little martial law between homies?

[RevDisk]

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/04/state-reps-want-to-fight-violence-with-national-guards-help.html

I almost want them to do this so the rest of the country is scared straight from this sort of nonsense once they see the results.

*blink*   Wait, what?

Ah, tyme?  NG has been doing domestic law enforcement work for quite some time.  Mainly in drug interdiction.  This was legalized by 32 U.S.C. §112.

If you want to see my state's hideously ugly Drug Interdiction activity website: http://www.counterdrug.org/   PAARNG runs the Northeast Counterdrug Training Center.  Some of the highlights are Ground Reconnaissance Specialist, poly, interrogation, surveillance, Domestic Terrorism, etc.  They even have a full "shoot house". 

The catalog is quite interesting:  http://www.counterdrug.org/FLASH/PDFs/course%20catalog.pdf

On one hand, I like the PAARNG getting toys and training in such matters.  On the other hand, I'd prefer civilian police organizations NOT be that well trained.  Most certainly not in military tactics, weapons, technology, etc.   

[taurusowner]

Who exactly do they want to do the actual patrolling?  I'm assuming the would want the Military Police to do the job as opposed to say, Armor, Infantry, or Field Artillery.  Which then prompts the question, what do they want the MPs to do exactly?  Law and Order Operations is one of the 5 MP Functions, but it is vastly less up to speed than it was 15 years ago.  Before 9/11, MPs did most of the Provost Marshall duties on a post, guarded the gate, and did law enforcement patrols.  But since Iraq and Afghanistan, almost all MP training has been on counter-insurgency and combat operations.  MPs don't roll around post in patrol cars anymore.  Every year, that kind of stuff is being outsourced to civilian security agencies, while MPs are trained to drive HMMWVs and ASVs armed with M4s and the like, kicking down doors and shooting up insurgents.

Is that what Chicago really wants?

I'm an MP in Michigan, and I can say without giving to much away for OPSEC reasons, that if Detroit asked us to do this tomorrow and we got the go ahead, it would look a lot more like downtown Baghdad than it would like adding a few more police cars to the streets.  Law and Order training just is not something MPs focus on these days.  And if Chicago picked any other MOS, it would be even worse.

My opinion, if they want to crack down on crime, hire more police officers*.  Don't get soldiers to do that job.  This isn't the peace-time Army any more.  And yes, the National Guard is Army all the way, especially since 9/11.  


*Yes, I agree with all of the ideas about getting rid of all the gun control, and that lawful gun owners carrying would result in less crime.  That's not really what I'm talking about though.

[zxcvbob]

My opinion, if they want to crack down on crime, hire more police officers*.  Don't get soldiers to do that job.  This isn't the peace-time Army any more.  And yes, the National Guard is Army all the way, especially since 9/11.

It'll never work.  Too many of the criminals are CPD.

[tyme]

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/04/state-reps-want-to-fight-violence-with-national-guards-help.html

I almost want them to do this so the rest of the country is scared straight from this sort of nonsense once they see the results.

*blink*   Wait, what?

Ah, tyme?  NG has been doing domestic law enforcement work for quite some time.  Mainly in drug interdiction.  This was legalized by 32 U.S.C. §112.

If you want to see my state's hideously ugly Drug Interdiction activity website: http://www.counterdrug.org/   PAARNG runs the Northeast Counterdrug Training Center.  Some of the highlights are Ground Reconnaissance Specialist, poly, interrogation, surveillance, Domestic Terrorism, etc.  They even have a full "shoot house".

That's for training LEOs, as I read it.

The key difference is whether civilians come in direct contact with National Guard troops operating in a law enforcement capacity.  Training, equipment support, and even having NG troops manning sensory equipment, is all tolerable... marginally, depending on who you talk to.  NG troops making contact with civilian suspects, or operating weaponry in support of civilian law enforcement, is not.  That would be martial law.

[Waitone]

I believe it was the supposed existence of a meth lab which used to justify using the military in the Waco final assault.

That said, if the good politicians want better enforcement start at the twin poles of the state or local prosecutor's office and department of correction.  Take money out of Daley's graft machine and put it into prosecution and correction.  Then come back with half-a**ed suggestions later in the cycle. 

[MechAg94]

First, its Chicago, the will probably insist they have no guns or at least no ammo.  They will just be put out there as a show.

[longeyes]

WWSAD?

What Would Saul Alinsky Do?

[HankB]

First, its Chicago, the will probably insist they have no guns or at least no ammo. 

When there were riots in the neighboring suburb of Blue Island, I remember Mayor Daley (father of the current mayor) ordered Chicago cops to go down and help them, but to leave their guns at home and only take their billy clubs.!

Cops refused . . . and Daley didn't push it. (One of Hizzoner's few losses.) So the "Don't hurt the bad guys" mentality is well-entrenched, and has been for decades.

As far as using the National Guard . . . if done right, it could be quite beneficial. I grew up in Chicago, and the city would be greatly improved if some areas were sealed off - nobody in or out - and then subjected to a rolling barrage.

[Leatherneck]

Please see my relevant post here:http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=24138.0 I'm greatly concerned about the motivation of our military leaders.

TC

[Matthew Carberry]

Today's rioters are yesterdays and tomorrows voters.

Sure, death never stopped anyone in Chicago from voting but the logistics are worse...

[kgbsquirrel]

  Erm. Well I suppose as long as they aren't Federalized it's not a violation of Posse Commitatus (not that that law exists as a functioning restriction anymore but I digress) but the proof will be in the pudding. Or more specifically, if they wind up doing police duties, how greatly (or not) they abuse the rights of the common citizen in the execution of those duties.


And simply because I brought up the PC act...

"The Army wont help us, something about the pussy communist act." - Sheriff Cyrus Buelton

[Scout26]

Hmmm,

According to the arguements made by Daley's stooges lawyers in the MacDonald case, boiled down is the whole "The National Guard is the Militia is the National Guard is the Militia".  So what these Daley Stooges State Rep's want is in essense to call out the Militia to help curb crime.

Why not just ask the law abiding citzens to carry firearms and report wrong-doers to the police.  I bet that would cut down on the crime problem.....

[PTK]

And simply because I brought up the PC act...

"The Army wont help us, something about the pussy communist act." - Sheriff Cyrus Buelton

Great movie. :D

According to the arguements made by Daley's stooges lawyers in the MacDonald case, boiled down is the whole "The National Guard is the Militia is the National Guard is the Militia".

And here I was, thinking that had been settled in, IIRC, Heller.

[HankB]

According to the arguements made by Daley's stooges lawyers in the MacDonald case, boiled down is the whole "The National Guard is the Militia is the National Guard is the Militia".  So what these Daley Stooges State Rep's want is in essense to call out the Militia to help curb crime.

Around 20 years ago when Minnesota Gov. Perpich tried to stop a MN NG deployment to Guatemala or someplace else south of the border by arguing that the MN NG was the STATE MILITIA and under HIS control, not the Feds . . . SCOTUS ruled that the NG was NOT the constitutional militia, as it's funded by Uncle Sam. Perpich lost, MN NG went on the deployment.

So the "NG is the militia" argument would seem to be settled law.

[taurusowner]

According to the arguements made by Daley's stooges lawyers in the MacDonald case, boiled down is the whole "The National Guard is the Militia is the National Guard is the Militia". 

Isn't that specifically rebutted in the Heller decision?

[Matthew Carberry]

The NG is defined as the "organized militia".  Congress through the Militia Act does have Constitutional authority in that area to a degree.

Heck, some of the concern about the 2nd Amendment was that it would have the reverse effect of implying the milita could be drastically interfered with by the States thus denying the Feds their ability to call it up.  It was felt the Common Law and traditionally understood rights would prevent any disarmament.

How times have changed.

[sanglant]

i just thought of one good reason for this. daley is trying to tie up the NG before chicago vs mcdonald ends up causing the NG to be sent in to chicago.

[P5 Guy]

I'm confused. Two Democrats want the National Guard to do the law and order work in Chi-Town?
Is this the people from the same Democrat party that called out the NG for the protesters at Kent State?
Well of course not. Law and order candidates come from the Republican party, I thought. That is what has me confused. Shouldn't the Liberals have learned that the Guard can and will use overwhelming force to restore law and order.
Someone please explain this dichotomy to me.

[kgbsquirrel]

Perhaps an oblique admission that all their laws against "da evil gunz, oh noes!" really hasn't done jack-all to reduce crime there?